I'm a totol newbie when it comes to anchor technique. Our #1 anchor rode, all chain, is captive on the Simpson Lawrence windlass, with no place to go butdirectly down into the below decks aft chain locker, through a very small opening in the electric windlass base, and no way to watch and adjust the rode manually if it bunches up, etc. Anchor #2 and its rode are located off-windlass in the forward anchor locker of the H430. Soooo, need to know how a rope/chain combo or straght rope rode would feed into and lay into the locker.Does a wet rode behave itself nicely coming off the windlass, or would I have a tangled mess below? Also, how would you drop or retrieve the second anchor when number one is captive on the windlass, assuming you have this type of windlass setup (which seems to be one heck of a compromise)? Thanks
- Status
rode stuff
George, I'm assuming that you have the Simpson/Lawrence windlass which has a winch-type drum above the rope/chain gypsy--if not, you can pretty much ignore this post. If you do have the type with a drum on top, you will notice that there is a fitting on top of the drum where a winch handle can be placed, which allows you to operate the windlass clutch. When the clutch is open (counter-clockwise), only the top drum spins, the gypsy is no longer connected to the drive mechanism. This allows you to take in the rope section of rode on the windlass, for instance if you're using a bahamian-style mooring for a stern anchor, attached from the second bow roller. You cannot use this drum for chain, which is why many people go with minimal chain on a lighter stern anchor (I use an 18 lb. Fortress with only 25 feet of chain whenever I can get away with it, whether Bahamian-style or as a classic stern anchor.).......As regards your question about the rode flaking in the anchor locker, generally speaking this is not a problem, especially if the rode is not twisted when it initially goes into the locker. I make it a point to pull all my rodes out once per year and untwist. The only time most people have problems with rodes not flaking properly is when there is too much rode for the locker to handle, since it often piles up in a pyramid and can jam the hawse. Otherwise, rodes tend to behave themselves, although they tend to become a little too compacted after long windward passages. The best solution for this is not to make long windward passages. Chuckle. Also, some people have much more chain than they'll ever use, which means that the bottom sections of chain sit there year after year, salty, until it becomes a giant ball of rust. (Have never been able to figure out why some sailors don't feel secure until they've put enough chain in the bow to sink it at least three inches below the waterline. Is it that they like hobby-horsing, or do they perhaps prefer going slow? One way or another, the cruiser maxim "You can never have too much chain" is absurd. Sure you can.)
George, I'm assuming that you have the Simpson/Lawrence windlass which has a winch-type drum above the rope/chain gypsy--if not, you can pretty much ignore this post. If you do have the type with a drum on top, you will notice that there is a fitting on top of the drum where a winch handle can be placed, which allows you to operate the windlass clutch. When the clutch is open (counter-clockwise), only the top drum spins, the gypsy is no longer connected to the drive mechanism. This allows you to take in the rope section of rode on the windlass, for instance if you're using a bahamian-style mooring for a stern anchor, attached from the second bow roller. You cannot use this drum for chain, which is why many people go with minimal chain on a lighter stern anchor (I use an 18 lb. Fortress with only 25 feet of chain whenever I can get away with it, whether Bahamian-style or as a classic stern anchor.).......As regards your question about the rode flaking in the anchor locker, generally speaking this is not a problem, especially if the rode is not twisted when it initially goes into the locker. I make it a point to pull all my rodes out once per year and untwist. The only time most people have problems with rodes not flaking properly is when there is too much rode for the locker to handle, since it often piles up in a pyramid and can jam the hawse. Otherwise, rodes tend to behave themselves, although they tend to become a little too compacted after long windward passages. The best solution for this is not to make long windward passages. Chuckle. Also, some people have much more chain than they'll ever use, which means that the bottom sections of chain sit there year after year, salty, until it becomes a giant ball of rust. (Have never been able to figure out why some sailors don't feel secure until they've put enough chain in the bow to sink it at least three inches below the waterline. Is it that they like hobby-horsing, or do they perhaps prefer going slow? One way or another, the cruiser maxim "You can never have too much chain" is absurd. Sure you can.)
Ne'er a tangled web be weaved
"all chain, is captive on the Simpson Lawrence windlass, with no place to go but directly down into the below decks aft chain locker, through a very small opening in the electric windlass base, and no way to watch and adjust the rode manually if it bunches up, etc." Chain will not bunch up without an outside force twisting the heck out of it. One reason to use all chain in a lower locker with windlass. As John mentioned, a lot of the chain may be left in the bottom of the locker. At least once per year (and probably more often if you can) you should pull all the chain rode and give it a freshwater washdown. This reduces the amount of salt buildup and other assorted "gunk" from aging the chain. "Does a wet rode behave itself nicely coming off the windlass, or would I have a tangled mess below?" HOW well a rode "behaves itself" depends a great deal on the type of rode and its age. Typically, though, you will probably have to "help" the rode fall in place in the anchor locker. Do not help it into flakes, figure-eights, or any other formatted pattern as that actually causes knots/tangles. As John mentioned, the rode tends to build up in a pyramid. That's fine if the anchor locker is tall enough to hold the entire rode in a pyramid after the anchor is placed on top of it; few if any are that big. So, do you let the pyramid build until it falls? I prefer not to; this introduces a twist or two and can cause tangles. When I "help" the rode into the locker I simply let it fall in, but I direct it to the corners, then maybe the middle, then back to another corner, etc. etc. This allows the rode to lay naturally on itself, but reduces the vertical space required. It also allows the anchor to sit in its built-in chocks in the locker without resting on the rode. (Of course, that depends on the size and stiffness of the rode, the length of rode, size of anchor, and size of locker.) Hope this helps.
"all chain, is captive on the Simpson Lawrence windlass, with no place to go but directly down into the below decks aft chain locker, through a very small opening in the electric windlass base, and no way to watch and adjust the rode manually if it bunches up, etc." Chain will not bunch up without an outside force twisting the heck out of it. One reason to use all chain in a lower locker with windlass. As John mentioned, a lot of the chain may be left in the bottom of the locker. At least once per year (and probably more often if you can) you should pull all the chain rode and give it a freshwater washdown. This reduces the amount of salt buildup and other assorted "gunk" from aging the chain. "Does a wet rode behave itself nicely coming off the windlass, or would I have a tangled mess below?" HOW well a rode "behaves itself" depends a great deal on the type of rode and its age. Typically, though, you will probably have to "help" the rode fall in place in the anchor locker. Do not help it into flakes, figure-eights, or any other formatted pattern as that actually causes knots/tangles. As John mentioned, the rode tends to build up in a pyramid. That's fine if the anchor locker is tall enough to hold the entire rode in a pyramid after the anchor is placed on top of it; few if any are that big. So, do you let the pyramid build until it falls? I prefer not to; this introduces a twist or two and can cause tangles. When I "help" the rode into the locker I simply let it fall in, but I direct it to the corners, then maybe the middle, then back to another corner, etc. etc. This allows the rode to lay naturally on itself, but reduces the vertical space required. It also allows the anchor to sit in its built-in chocks in the locker without resting on the rode. (Of course, that depends on the size and stiffness of the rode, the length of rode, size of anchor, and size of locker.) Hope this helps.
...leads to another question
Thanks for the excellent input, guys. The primary rode will stay all chain and go through the windlass into the locker below, but since the chain is captive on the gypsy, how on earth would you use a combination rope/chain rode for #2, other than to haul up the rope on the captsan and then haul the chain by hand? There's gotta be a better way to deal with the chain part of the #2 rode, unless I'm obligated to use an all rope rode. I think that two rodes, each with some chain might require another type of windlass from which chain #1 can be unloaded. Or can this system be made to work?
Thanks for the excellent input, guys. The primary rode will stay all chain and go through the windlass into the locker below, but since the chain is captive on the gypsy, how on earth would you use a combination rope/chain rode for #2, other than to haul up the rope on the captsan and then haul the chain by hand? There's gotta be a better way to deal with the chain part of the #2 rode, unless I'm obligated to use an all rope rode. I think that two rodes, each with some chain might require another type of windlass from which chain #1 can be unloaded. Or can this system be made to work?
another answer
You've pretty much captured the limitation of a vertical windlass (not just the SimpsonLawrence models). A windlass that rotates the capstain/gypsy on a horizontal axis can do what you want with multiple chain rodes, but they're big and heavy and ugly and have to be mounted above deck, preferably where they'll do the most damage to a spinnaker. Although it's not uncommon to see these on sailing yachts, they seem better suited for fishing trawlers, at least in terms of aesthetics. But for using a vertical windlass, the best solution, short of having galley slaves aboard who can double as chain-puller-uppers, is to use a lightweight fortress/guardian type anchor with a small amount (25 feet) of chain as the second anchor. The forty-pound imitation danforth that came with my 410 was replaced by an 18 pound fortress which has MORE holding power than the factory-supplied anchor. It is light enough for us to pull in that last bit of chain by hand. (I donated the OEM anchor to my yacht club, where it's now being used to anchor the mooring block on a racing buoy. This is the only task, in my opinion, to which it is genuinely suited.) So yes, the downside to the type of windlass that you have is that it will only handle one chain. The upside is that it can be mounted inside the chain locker, giving you the wonderfully open foredeck that is characteristic of the newer hunters. By the way, I know of one Swan in the 65-foot range where the owner installed a second vertical windlass for the second bow anchor, but this alternative seems a little excessive/expensive for boats in the 40-50 foot range.
You've pretty much captured the limitation of a vertical windlass (not just the SimpsonLawrence models). A windlass that rotates the capstain/gypsy on a horizontal axis can do what you want with multiple chain rodes, but they're big and heavy and ugly and have to be mounted above deck, preferably where they'll do the most damage to a spinnaker. Although it's not uncommon to see these on sailing yachts, they seem better suited for fishing trawlers, at least in terms of aesthetics. But for using a vertical windlass, the best solution, short of having galley slaves aboard who can double as chain-puller-uppers, is to use a lightweight fortress/guardian type anchor with a small amount (25 feet) of chain as the second anchor. The forty-pound imitation danforth that came with my 410 was replaced by an 18 pound fortress which has MORE holding power than the factory-supplied anchor. It is light enough for us to pull in that last bit of chain by hand. (I donated the OEM anchor to my yacht club, where it's now being used to anchor the mooring block on a racing buoy. This is the only task, in my opinion, to which it is genuinely suited.) So yes, the downside to the type of windlass that you have is that it will only handle one chain. The upside is that it can be mounted inside the chain locker, giving you the wonderfully open foredeck that is characteristic of the newer hunters. By the way, I know of one Swan in the 65-foot range where the owner installed a second vertical windlass for the second bow anchor, but this alternative seems a little excessive/expensive for boats in the 40-50 foot range.
One ugly solution
Here's an idea but it makes the pretty vertical windlass drum a little harder to look at. Find a truckstop (or any tire repair shop) and buy a no-good truck tire intertube. Cut the intertube in loops across the small axis of the tube itself in section approximately 2/3 the height of the windlass drum. (You are making very large rubber bands.) Place as many of these rubber bands on the windlass drum as you can and still have a lip at the top and bottom of the drum. Place the bands on tightly just as you would a rubber band around any round object. You can use a band at the top and bottom of the drum to protect the finish on the drum. The rubber grip will allow you to pull up the chain part of the rode with a single wrap. Major Disadvantages: 1. The rubber on the drum will DEFINITELY turn the rope part of the rode black. 2. The operation still has to be performed manually by trailing the rode. 3. As mentioned, it's not very pretty. Major Advantage: You don't have to haul it in yourself. Options: Perhaps the the intertube could be replaced with wide white rigging tape? This would eliminate the discoloration of the rope part of the rode. Comments?
Here's an idea but it makes the pretty vertical windlass drum a little harder to look at. Find a truckstop (or any tire repair shop) and buy a no-good truck tire intertube. Cut the intertube in loops across the small axis of the tube itself in section approximately 2/3 the height of the windlass drum. (You are making very large rubber bands.) Place as many of these rubber bands on the windlass drum as you can and still have a lip at the top and bottom of the drum. Place the bands on tightly just as you would a rubber band around any round object. You can use a band at the top and bottom of the drum to protect the finish on the drum. The rubber grip will allow you to pull up the chain part of the rode with a single wrap. Major Disadvantages: 1. The rubber on the drum will DEFINITELY turn the rope part of the rode black. 2. The operation still has to be performed manually by trailing the rode. 3. As mentioned, it's not very pretty. Major Advantage: You don't have to haul it in yourself. Options: Perhaps the the intertube could be replaced with wide white rigging tape? This would eliminate the discoloration of the rope part of the rode. Comments?
Use a snubber line, not a windlass, to anchor!
Believe me, I always try to sit out any discussions about anchors and anchoring techniques because it tends to be hard to find two sailors who completely agree on these issues. Also, a lot of useful advice has already been given by previous responders. Yet, I still have a couple of remaining itches that I just can't resist to scratch any longer. The question of how to handle more than one rode with only one windlass has a very short answer, namely: one at a time! As long as one follows two basic principles this dilemma should never arise in the first place. (principle 1) Never use a windlass as a cleat, bollard or Samson post to tie your anchor rode to; the bearings of a windlass are simply not constructed to take the potential shock loads. The windlass is made to bring rode and anchor back on board. Most windlasses are not even strong enough to retrieve a rode under tension, e.g. in a significant blow, or to break out a deeply buried anchor. If you read the manual carefully you will doubtlessly find one or more paragraphs telling you all this. Ignore it at your peril. Windlasses are expensive gear and, if not properly treated, are likely to give up the ghost after only a few seasons. (principle 2) Never leave a chain rode tied off directly on a cleat, bollard, Samson post or even chain stopper (let alone windlass) if there is any chance of strong winds or waves. As soon as a big wave rolls by (e.g. generated by a passing powerboat) while the bight of the chain catches firmly on an unseen underwater obstacle, the vessel will continue to rise up without your favorite piece of deck hardware (which will either be ripped of its base or bent into a pretzel). Always use a snubber line (see attached description). Once you remove rode # 1 from the chain gypsy wheel or the capstan drum (e.g. after taking the tension off with a snubber line) you then put on rode # 2 (or # 3, or # 4, and so on) regardless of whether the windlass is horizontal or vertical. For those among us not already quite familiar with the use of snubber lines, here is a short tutorial: Basically, you connect the anchor chain to the boat via a 20 - 30 ft long stretchy nylon line so that high shock loads are damped out ("snubbed"). Also, a snubber lines eliminate the noise of the chain (which can keep the crew in the fo'csle from sleeping). The two main methods of connecting the nylon line to the chain are: (1) using a chain hook; or (2) using one of a variety of rolling hitches. Chain hooks are said to possibly damage the chain (especially when using the wrong size). However, a disadvantage of the rolling hitch is that it is harder to remove if you need to let out more chain in the middle of the night. The other end of the line can be cleated off on a strong cleat, bollard or Samson post. Several details are important: (a) the part of the chain inboard of the attachment point should be left hanging in a large enough bight (loop) to accomodate the maximum possible stretch of the nylon line without becoming taut enough to dislodge the chain hook; (b) very good chafing protection should be used where the snubber line comes aboard; (c) the inboard end of the snubber line should be tied off in such a way that it can be quickly released under tension; and (d) high stretch nylon braid is preferred over three-strand rope which tends to twist the snubber line around the chain under tension. Have fun! Flying Dutchman "Rivendel II' (Legend 43, hull # 1)
Believe me, I always try to sit out any discussions about anchors and anchoring techniques because it tends to be hard to find two sailors who completely agree on these issues. Also, a lot of useful advice has already been given by previous responders. Yet, I still have a couple of remaining itches that I just can't resist to scratch any longer. The question of how to handle more than one rode with only one windlass has a very short answer, namely: one at a time! As long as one follows two basic principles this dilemma should never arise in the first place. (principle 1) Never use a windlass as a cleat, bollard or Samson post to tie your anchor rode to; the bearings of a windlass are simply not constructed to take the potential shock loads. The windlass is made to bring rode and anchor back on board. Most windlasses are not even strong enough to retrieve a rode under tension, e.g. in a significant blow, or to break out a deeply buried anchor. If you read the manual carefully you will doubtlessly find one or more paragraphs telling you all this. Ignore it at your peril. Windlasses are expensive gear and, if not properly treated, are likely to give up the ghost after only a few seasons. (principle 2) Never leave a chain rode tied off directly on a cleat, bollard, Samson post or even chain stopper (let alone windlass) if there is any chance of strong winds or waves. As soon as a big wave rolls by (e.g. generated by a passing powerboat) while the bight of the chain catches firmly on an unseen underwater obstacle, the vessel will continue to rise up without your favorite piece of deck hardware (which will either be ripped of its base or bent into a pretzel). Always use a snubber line (see attached description). Once you remove rode # 1 from the chain gypsy wheel or the capstan drum (e.g. after taking the tension off with a snubber line) you then put on rode # 2 (or # 3, or # 4, and so on) regardless of whether the windlass is horizontal or vertical. For those among us not already quite familiar with the use of snubber lines, here is a short tutorial: Basically, you connect the anchor chain to the boat via a 20 - 30 ft long stretchy nylon line so that high shock loads are damped out ("snubbed"). Also, a snubber lines eliminate the noise of the chain (which can keep the crew in the fo'csle from sleeping). The two main methods of connecting the nylon line to the chain are: (1) using a chain hook; or (2) using one of a variety of rolling hitches. Chain hooks are said to possibly damage the chain (especially when using the wrong size). However, a disadvantage of the rolling hitch is that it is harder to remove if you need to let out more chain in the middle of the night. The other end of the line can be cleated off on a strong cleat, bollard or Samson post. Several details are important: (a) the part of the chain inboard of the attachment point should be left hanging in a large enough bight (loop) to accomodate the maximum possible stretch of the nylon line without becoming taut enough to dislodge the chain hook; (b) very good chafing protection should be used where the snubber line comes aboard; (c) the inboard end of the snubber line should be tied off in such a way that it can be quickly released under tension; and (d) high stretch nylon braid is preferred over three-strand rope which tends to twist the snubber line around the chain under tension. Have fun! Flying Dutchman "Rivendel II' (Legend 43, hull # 1)
2 Anchors with Chain but 1 Windlass
Hunter is installing a Simpson Lawrence Windlass that is design to work the "primary" anchor with an all chain rode or w/ a chain-rope combination. However, the second anchor can ONLY be retrive using the rope area. Any chain will need to be pulled in by hand. My answer was to delete the Simpson Lawrence Windlass from Hunter when ordering the boat and having the dealer modify the anchor well and install a Maxwell HWC Series Windlass. This windlass has independent capstans for chain and rope. The only negitive is that when retreving the anchor at the chain / rope splice, one must manually move the chain or rope from one capstan to the other. Hunter is currently not thinking about the real crusing sailor that will use two all (or almost all) chain anchor systems.
Hunter is installing a Simpson Lawrence Windlass that is design to work the "primary" anchor with an all chain rode or w/ a chain-rope combination. However, the second anchor can ONLY be retrive using the rope area. Any chain will need to be pulled in by hand. My answer was to delete the Simpson Lawrence Windlass from Hunter when ordering the boat and having the dealer modify the anchor well and install a Maxwell HWC Series Windlass. This windlass has independent capstans for chain and rope. The only negitive is that when retreving the anchor at the chain / rope splice, one must manually move the chain or rope from one capstan to the other. Hunter is currently not thinking about the real crusing sailor that will use two all (or almost all) chain anchor systems.
2nd rode
Thanks again to the Dutchman for making an important point. Always enjoy your posts Hank. I think the best solution is to switch to a rode with 50 feet of chain and the rest rope on both rodes. Let out all the chain plus some rope on #1 and cleat +/- a snubber. Then put #2 on the gypsy and do the same. I too have had problems with shape or size of the rode locker not accepting the rode as it comes in and becoming clogged at the hawse. This issue is about the first thing I checked when looking at my P420. Not a problem on this boat. By the way I've chartered several boats with horizontal windlass's (?) as does my P420--gypsy on one side and barrel on the other--and its down in the locker so the foredeck is clear.
Thanks again to the Dutchman for making an important point. Always enjoy your posts Hank. I think the best solution is to switch to a rode with 50 feet of chain and the rest rope on both rodes. Let out all the chain plus some rope on #1 and cleat +/- a snubber. Then put #2 on the gypsy and do the same. I too have had problems with shape or size of the rode locker not accepting the rode as it comes in and becoming clogged at the hawse. This issue is about the first thing I checked when looking at my P420. Not a problem on this boat. By the way I've chartered several boats with horizontal windlass's (?) as does my P420--gypsy on one side and barrel on the other--and its down in the locker so the foredeck is clear.
advantages of chain rode with rope tail
Greg, I do agree with your solution (chain rode with rope tail) and, in the past, have advocated that approach several times myself (e.g. on the rec.boats.cruising NG). It removes a lot of weight from the bow, provides excellent snubber action, is easy to tie off and is much safer for boat hardware as well as for human limbs. On the negative side are the lack of a truly elegant and reliable chain/rope splice or connector (and consequent difficulty in switching the rode from the capstan drum to the gypsy wheel) and the need to avoid anchoring in cora, lava or other sharp rocks (unless the amount of rope rode you have out is always less than the water depth. In other word, this type of combined rode works best if you have a pretty good idea where you will be anchoring or if you always keep an all-chain rode as a backup. Since we are scuba divers and nearly always dive on our anchor to check how well it is set and whether the rode is in harm's way anywhere, a combined rode works very well for us, even in unknown anchorages. Flying Dutchman
Greg, I do agree with your solution (chain rode with rope tail) and, in the past, have advocated that approach several times myself (e.g. on the rec.boats.cruising NG). It removes a lot of weight from the bow, provides excellent snubber action, is easy to tie off and is much safer for boat hardware as well as for human limbs. On the negative side are the lack of a truly elegant and reliable chain/rope splice or connector (and consequent difficulty in switching the rode from the capstan drum to the gypsy wheel) and the need to avoid anchoring in cora, lava or other sharp rocks (unless the amount of rope rode you have out is always less than the water depth. In other word, this type of combined rode works best if you have a pretty good idea where you will be anchoring or if you always keep an all-chain rode as a backup. Since we are scuba divers and nearly always dive on our anchor to check how well it is set and whether the rode is in harm's way anywhere, a combined rode works very well for us, even in unknown anchorages. Flying Dutchman
- Status