We are about to replace the anchor on our Legend 37. We sail predominantly in Sydney Harbour which is largely sand and mud. We have read a number of archives extolling the virtue of anchor "x" over anchor "y" and it gets a bit overwhelming when you are trying to research it. Based on what we have read and seen on the Internetm, we are currently considering a 40lb Manson Plough and a Fortress Guardian G23. We will be using all chain with a nylon chain hook. Would you go for the Plough over the Fortress? There is only a $40 difference between them, so price is not a differentiator. Would you go for something else? Thanks in advance
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See Yachting Monthly December 2++6
The December 2006 issue of Yachting Montly has a large article on anchor tests. The results are somewhat alarming, but one should expect new anchor designs to end up better than the classic ones. May be its time to re-evaluste the chosen anchor?
The December 2006 issue of Yachting Montly has a large article on anchor tests. The results are somewhat alarming, but one should expect new anchor designs to end up better than the classic ones. May be its time to re-evaluste the chosen anchor?
YM Article
The YM article mentioned by Kjell was most illuminating but the only bottom used in the test was hard sand. In this several anchors failed to set at all and this left doubt that the very large & very powerful test vessel was not moving slowly enough, or did not wait for long enough, to enable the flukes to penetrate. It may even have been a "crusty" bottom. Further study (Google Anchoring) has revealed many other articles, two from the US authorities are of particular interest. One says holding power in mud is greater than that in sand. The other shows exactly the opposite. A UK sailing mag tested all types and, surprisingly, concluded that the larger and heavier version of one pattern held better than the smaller version, thus illustrating that, at best, anchoring is a hit and miss affair. The UK lifeboat service tested all types for use on their own lifeboats and were in difficulty in reaching a conclusion. It is reported that then a gale sprang up and they happened to be using the Delta. It held perfectly so they now use Deltas. I understand that the Danforth pattern (Fortress) is best in mud or soft sand whereas the plough types hold well in these bottoms but excel in other types. Neither penetrates kelp very well. I suggest you get the largest anchor you can handle/stow and preferably one which fits neatly on your bow fitting - then carry a spare of a different pattern as a backup/kedge. An aluminium anchor might not have the weight to start its flukes digging into hard sand. Suggest you ask others who sail in your locality. PS:- I use a 16Kg Delta on my Legend 376 but I would like larger in some soft bottoms. PPS:- Nylon chain hook? Mine is SS.
The YM article mentioned by Kjell was most illuminating but the only bottom used in the test was hard sand. In this several anchors failed to set at all and this left doubt that the very large & very powerful test vessel was not moving slowly enough, or did not wait for long enough, to enable the flukes to penetrate. It may even have been a "crusty" bottom. Further study (Google Anchoring) has revealed many other articles, two from the US authorities are of particular interest. One says holding power in mud is greater than that in sand. The other shows exactly the opposite. A UK sailing mag tested all types and, surprisingly, concluded that the larger and heavier version of one pattern held better than the smaller version, thus illustrating that, at best, anchoring is a hit and miss affair. The UK lifeboat service tested all types for use on their own lifeboats and were in difficulty in reaching a conclusion. It is reported that then a gale sprang up and they happened to be using the Delta. It held perfectly so they now use Deltas. I understand that the Danforth pattern (Fortress) is best in mud or soft sand whereas the plough types hold well in these bottoms but excel in other types. Neither penetrates kelp very well. I suggest you get the largest anchor you can handle/stow and preferably one which fits neatly on your bow fitting - then carry a spare of a different pattern as a backup/kedge. An aluminium anchor might not have the weight to start its flukes digging into hard sand. Suggest you ask others who sail in your locality. PS:- I use a 16Kg Delta on my Legend 376 but I would like larger in some soft bottoms. PPS:- Nylon chain hook? Mine is SS.
Anchoring observations
I had a bad anchoring season with my new 2002 H356. I have never dragged so many times and it got to be a problem with my confidence. Our anchor is a Delta and it may have been a bit light in chain having about 10' of light high tensile chain ( I would like to say how light but measuring it is a winter project I haven't done yet). In any event, if the anchor hit the bottom in any orientation but perfect I would be at risk of dragging. Once it dug in it could be difficult to remove. By the end of the season I had put my danforth on the boat and the delta in the basement. I would like to report the results but never did anchor with the danforth. I can just say I never had a problem in these waters with a danforth and some beefy chain. I have noted that some new anchor designs try to account for the anchor landing on the bottom either upside down or otherwise in less than ideal orientation. The fact that the designs are addressing this problem indicates to me the problem is real. Heavy chain can't hurt any anchor but for me it has to fit my windlass gypsy. Addendum: The chain is 5/16".
I had a bad anchoring season with my new 2002 H356. I have never dragged so many times and it got to be a problem with my confidence. Our anchor is a Delta and it may have been a bit light in chain having about 10' of light high tensile chain ( I would like to say how light but measuring it is a winter project I haven't done yet). In any event, if the anchor hit the bottom in any orientation but perfect I would be at risk of dragging. Once it dug in it could be difficult to remove. By the end of the season I had put my danforth on the boat and the delta in the basement. I would like to report the results but never did anchor with the danforth. I can just say I never had a problem in these waters with a danforth and some beefy chain. I have noted that some new anchor designs try to account for the anchor landing on the bottom either upside down or otherwise in less than ideal orientation. The fact that the designs are addressing this problem indicates to me the problem is real. Heavy chain can't hurt any anchor but for me it has to fit my windlass gypsy. Addendum: The chain is 5/16".
Fortress
I was considering a Bruce or Delta for my 35.5 but after talking to a lot of people and using the Fortress a couple of times in less than ideal conditions I decided to stick with it. I anchor in mud and sand and haven't had a problem with it yet. Plus it's light and easy to get up.
I was considering a Bruce or Delta for my 35.5 but after talking to a lot of people and using the Fortress a couple of times in less than ideal conditions I decided to stick with it. I anchor in mud and sand and haven't had a problem with it yet. Plus it's light and easy to get up.
Err on the side of Heavier
My experience is with a 12,600# displacement HL-35 and our primary anchor is a Delta 35# coupled to 45ft of 5/16" high test. I also have two Deltas which are back-ups and I've used a few times. One of them I used as a primary anchor for a while but wasn't satisifed so, hence, the Delta. Our anchoring is in everything from very soft mud to just about rock, kelp is often present and depths can run to over 100ft. However - if I had to do it over I'd go with the next size larger Delta for the primary anchor and maybe about 10ft less chain. Puting the weight in the hook is preferable to having it in the chain, in my opinion. For a 37 footer I would up the size proportionally. Since you mention you have a lot of chain and your boat is a 37 ft I'd assume you also have a windlass. The post by Donalex, paragraph "I suggest you get..." is exactly my view also.
My experience is with a 12,600# displacement HL-35 and our primary anchor is a Delta 35# coupled to 45ft of 5/16" high test. I also have two Deltas which are back-ups and I've used a few times. One of them I used as a primary anchor for a while but wasn't satisifed so, hence, the Delta. Our anchoring is in everything from very soft mud to just about rock, kelp is often present and depths can run to over 100ft. However - if I had to do it over I'd go with the next size larger Delta for the primary anchor and maybe about 10ft less chain. Puting the weight in the hook is preferable to having it in the chain, in my opinion. For a 37 footer I would up the size proportionally. Since you mention you have a lot of chain and your boat is a 37 ft I'd assume you also have a windlass. The post by Donalex, paragraph "I suggest you get..." is exactly my view also.
Delta & Danforth (type)
I would suggest a Delta as a primary & a Danforth (type), fortress as a secondary. You may also want to consider a Bruce as a primary.
I would suggest a Delta as a primary & a Danforth (type), fortress as a secondary. You may also want to consider a Bruce as a primary.
Fortress
I currently have the Fortress G23 as my primary and car a Super Max as my secondary anchor, (which has yet to see the bottom in 13 years) I have nothing but good things to say about the Fortress. My "usual anchoring" habitats are mud and sand or a combination of both. I keep the "mud guards" permently installed on the Fortress (which is recommended) I have found the key to setting the Fortress is to "quick set" it w/ short scope before you play out the necessary scope. I have been in 30 knots sustained w/gusts to 40+ with a 3'to 4' short chop and it didn't budge. Not sure how the Fortress will perform with an all chain rode though?
I currently have the Fortress G23 as my primary and car a Super Max as my secondary anchor, (which has yet to see the bottom in 13 years) I have nothing but good things to say about the Fortress. My "usual anchoring" habitats are mud and sand or a combination of both. I keep the "mud guards" permently installed on the Fortress (which is recommended) I have found the key to setting the Fortress is to "quick set" it w/ short scope before you play out the necessary scope. I have been in 30 knots sustained w/gusts to 40+ with a 3'to 4' short chop and it didn't budge. Not sure how the Fortress will perform with an all chain rode though?
Summary - Manson Plough Question
Thanks to everyone for their contributions so far. The contributions pretty much reflect what you find on the net (ie one post will say go for type A, don't touch type B, and the next post (or reply) will say the complete oppposite!). My research to date show that there are two categories to choose from. 1. The "older" designs which appear to be largely a [Danforth type] (eg a Fortress) and a [CQR type] (eg a Manson Plough). 2. The "newer" designs such as Spade, Rocna, Sarca and so on. From my research, the Spade and Rocna get a lot of airplay (presumably because they are new) and virtually all of it is high praise. Unfortunately, the trade off is that they are significantly more expensive than the "older" designs. I also can't find a Rocna distributor in Australia. As I need to make a decision in the next few days, I think I will go for a [CQR type] as they seem to be a good all-round performer. They are also reasonably priced and readily available. I would be interested to hear from anyone who has used a Manson Plough anchor. It is a NZ product, but I understand that it is available in the US. Thanks again to all of the contributors.
Thanks to everyone for their contributions so far. The contributions pretty much reflect what you find on the net (ie one post will say go for type A, don't touch type B, and the next post (or reply) will say the complete oppposite!). My research to date show that there are two categories to choose from. 1. The "older" designs which appear to be largely a [Danforth type] (eg a Fortress) and a [CQR type] (eg a Manson Plough). 2. The "newer" designs such as Spade, Rocna, Sarca and so on. From my research, the Spade and Rocna get a lot of airplay (presumably because they are new) and virtually all of it is high praise. Unfortunately, the trade off is that they are significantly more expensive than the "older" designs. I also can't find a Rocna distributor in Australia. As I need to make a decision in the next few days, I think I will go for a [CQR type] as they seem to be a good all-round performer. They are also reasonably priced and readily available. I would be interested to hear from anyone who has used a Manson Plough anchor. It is a NZ product, but I understand that it is available in the US. Thanks again to all of the contributors.
delta and fortress
we use a 35lb delta as our primary (35 ft chain) and a fortress as a backup on our 356, but we've always been able to get the delta to set, mostly in Maine mud, rocks, and kelp. it's held through major windshifts and we've never had a hard time retrieving it.
we use a 35lb delta as our primary (35 ft chain) and a fortress as a backup on our 356, but we've always been able to get the delta to set, mostly in Maine mud, rocks, and kelp. it's held through major windshifts and we've never had a hard time retrieving it.
Excellent anchor
Hi David, I am also in Sydney and have a Hunter 38 just 12 mths old. I went through same questions as you and finally finished up with a 40lb Manson and 50m 10mm chain plus rope. I have just recently finsihed a 6 mth cruise to the Whitsundays and not once had the anchor drag. also liked the idea of a Sarca or Spade but couldnt find one here. Cheers
Hi David, I am also in Sydney and have a Hunter 38 just 12 mths old. I went through same questions as you and finally finished up with a 40lb Manson and 50m 10mm chain plus rope. I have just recently finsihed a 6 mth cruise to the Whitsundays and not once had the anchor drag. also liked the idea of a Sarca or Spade but couldnt find one here. Cheers
My experience one dark and stormy night
with a danforth type anchor was not pleasant. The generic danforth ended up with a rock the size of a softball jam in between the flukes and there was no way it was going to set when I needed it the most. This was in the Sea of Cortez when the wind piped up suddenly and I tried to reset it. Ever since then I have used a Delta. I have tried to drag it and set it with too little scope since then to see how it performed (not in the middle of the night) and I'm sold on the plow type anchor. The danforth is a proven performer, especially if you know your bottom conditions Chesepeke mud, nice sand, etc. But, it has a problem when the bottom has cobbles or lots of weeds. I don't have the experience that most of you do, and my boat is quite a bit smaller at 26 feet and 5000 lbs, but I sleep alot better since I went to the big plow and 40' of 3/8/ chain.
with a danforth type anchor was not pleasant. The generic danforth ended up with a rock the size of a softball jam in between the flukes and there was no way it was going to set when I needed it the most. This was in the Sea of Cortez when the wind piped up suddenly and I tried to reset it. Ever since then I have used a Delta. I have tried to drag it and set it with too little scope since then to see how it performed (not in the middle of the night) and I'm sold on the plow type anchor. The danforth is a proven performer, especially if you know your bottom conditions Chesepeke mud, nice sand, etc. But, it has a problem when the bottom has cobbles or lots of weeds. I don't have the experience that most of you do, and my boat is quite a bit smaller at 26 feet and 5000 lbs, but I sleep alot better since I went to the big plow and 40' of 3/8/ chain.
Nylon rope
Hi David , I think I have maybe 14mm or 16mm but I am not too sure how much of it although I think maybe 30m. The thing is, I have never had to resort to using it on my whole trip north, partly because I was not savvy enough to figue out how to use it on the windlass without jamming it in the chain bit and partly because I didnt need it.
Hi David , I think I have maybe 14mm or 16mm but I am not too sure how much of it although I think maybe 30m. The thing is, I have never had to resort to using it on my whole trip north, partly because I was not savvy enough to figue out how to use it on the windlass without jamming it in the chain bit and partly because I didnt need it.
Treat them like a wrench
You would not use a 1/2" wrench on a 9/16" bolt would you. So don't expect one anchor to "do it all" either. Cruisers routinely have more than 2 anchors, a storm anchor, a lunch hook, a coral anchor, a sand, a mud, a favorite as it holds most anywhere but not everywhere. FWIW My 37 Legend does fine with a Bruce and Danforth.
You would not use a 1/2" wrench on a 9/16" bolt would you. So don't expect one anchor to "do it all" either. Cruisers routinely have more than 2 anchors, a storm anchor, a lunch hook, a coral anchor, a sand, a mud, a favorite as it holds most anywhere but not everywhere. FWIW My 37 Legend does fine with a Bruce and Danforth.
I have a Legend 37, too!
And my two anchors are the stock Danforth and a Bruce 33 that I added. I have never used the Danforth since I mounted the Bruce. It works for all situations and I anchor several times a season (12 seasons).
And my two anchors are the stock Danforth and a Bruce 33 that I added. I have never used the Danforth since I mounted the Bruce. It works for all situations and I anchor several times a season (12 seasons).
Anchor is 1/2 the equation
There are tons of opinions on size of anchor and type... but one of the main factors that determines if the anchor will hold is the amount of "chain".... the scope and weight of your rode will determine if the anchor size and type you have is appropriate.... after 20 years in the navy.... where our anchors are big... the chain is what determines if the anchor holds the ship ... so don't pay as much attention to the anchor - but to both the anchor and rode combination.... and we I have a windlass .... me back is not what it use to be.... : ) happy sailing and good luck at setting the hook!
There are tons of opinions on size of anchor and type... but one of the main factors that determines if the anchor will hold is the amount of "chain".... the scope and weight of your rode will determine if the anchor size and type you have is appropriate.... after 20 years in the navy.... where our anchors are big... the chain is what determines if the anchor holds the ship ... so don't pay as much attention to the anchor - but to both the anchor and rode combination.... and we I have a windlass .... me back is not what it use to be.... : ) happy sailing and good luck at setting the hook!
Thanks John
Thanks John. We have ended up going with 55 metres of chain and 55 metres of 14mm 3 strand nylon. It's interesting that you never use the nylon much. If you work on a scope of say 5:1 (you can use anywhere between 3:1 - very unsafe unless there is no wind and 10:1 - very safe), you would be limited to anchoring in about 26 feet of water with your 50 metres of chain. We went for the longer length as there are a few spots in the harbour that give you a good vantage point for the New Year's Even fireworks and the depth is about 46ft on the transducer. By the time you add say 4 foot of freeboard, and assuming say 26 knots of breeze (which was about what it was last New Year's Eve), a 5:1 scope would require about 76 metres of anchor line.
Thanks John. We have ended up going with 55 metres of chain and 55 metres of 14mm 3 strand nylon. It's interesting that you never use the nylon much. If you work on a scope of say 5:1 (you can use anywhere between 3:1 - very unsafe unless there is no wind and 10:1 - very safe), you would be limited to anchoring in about 26 feet of water with your 50 metres of chain. We went for the longer length as there are a few spots in the harbour that give you a good vantage point for the New Year's Even fireworks and the depth is about 46ft on the transducer. By the time you add say 4 foot of freeboard, and assuming say 26 knots of breeze (which was about what it was last New Year's Eve), a 5:1 scope would require about 76 metres of anchor line.
Where do you stow your Danforth
Paul I am considering a Danforth style anchor for my secondary. Where do you stow yours on your 37?
Paul I am considering a Danforth style anchor for my secondary. Where do you stow yours on your 37?
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