Anchor chain

[Crazy Dave Condon]

Cat 310 #1 in GA

Did you buy your boat new? If not, send me a private email and I will respond with some info for your records regarding the construction of the first 20. I was a Catalina dealer with one of the first ones.

 

[Kings Gambit]

As far as I've been able to determine there is no disadvantage to rode with one hundred or more feet of chain backed by nylon of equal or greater length. I have 160' of 5/16" SS chain backed by 200' of 9/16" three-strand nylon. As I normally do not anchor in more that 50', I can get at least 3:1 scope on the chain alone. True, you need a windlass to recover the chain; so it's inherently more expensive than a system that does not require one. However, I don't see that as a disadvantage of chain b/c all boat costs are relative. For example, quality anchors versus knock offs, roller furling mainsails versus slab, roller furling tape-drive headsails versus hanks, Carbon or Kevlar versus Dacron, etc., the list goes on. As Stu likes to say, "Your boat, your choice." So, choose wisely for your own applications!

 

[thinwater]

This is Fortress Anchor guide...
http://fortressanchors.com/resources/safe-anchoring-guide

Chain link info...
1) The size of chain is by the diameter of the steel rod used to bend into the link. example: 3/8th chain is 3/8" rod.
2) The USA standard of tension strength has 125% over design, or you can corrode away 25% of the diameter and be at design loads. Thus the strength of chain is only as good as it weakest link.
3) Stainless steel chain is stronger in tension than carbon steel for same rod diameter.
4) Galvanized Chain is for show and not for much else. Why? Zinc coating scrapes off and how many hours in water versus a dry anchor closet. Water is needed for grounded electrochemical reaction (corrosion). Rusted dry steel is a good thing, but ugly.
________
My 43' boat came with 3/8ths 250 feet of chain and 350' of nylon rode. That would let me anchor ≈90-110' of water with coral cutting bottom in normal weather conditions. I have the same anchor chain for my 2nd bow anchor thus reducing the main strain in foul weather.

_______
Anchor weight only helps sink the anchor faster.
You should match your anchor tension load strength to the chain/boat holding force. That link above suggests ≈3200 pounds of force tension load for your boat size in a single anchor in a tropical storm.

So...
How deep , How many anchors, and what sea state, What size windlass gypsy, do you plan for?

I'm sorry, but there are numerous errors in the above.
1. Rather than make possibly erroneous statements about sizes, refer folks to the NACM standard.
2. No idea where that comes from. read the NACM standard and ABYC H40 standard on ground tackle.
3. Laughably incorrect unless fully explained, and then a false comparison. Grade 43 chain is 25% stronger and Grade 70 chain is 50% stronger than stainless. True, stainless chain is generally stronger than galvinized proof coil, but why would I compare the most expensive chain to the cheapest possible chain?
4. Galvinized has been the standard forever. For those seeking state of the art, grade 70 and above are the bleeding edge. Also, the potential for stainless to crack has been side stepped. In fact, in order to avoid the risk of cracking, stainless should be retired after roughly the same service life as galvanized chain. It is still pretty after that, but like old standing rigging, safety may be only an illusion.

For chain and anchoring info, go the source. NACM and ABYC.

 

[thinwater]

Zero need for chain? It's not there just for chafing..... it's called holding power.

Or is that "holding power at short scope?" Once the scope approaches 10:1 I'm not sure that is true. The only remaining benefit is reduced yawing... which can be a major thing, but it depends on the boat. Some don't.

As folks look at higher strength chain as a way to save weight, we need to consider other ways to solve the problems that hundreds of pounds of BBB solved in the past. My current boat is all-chain, and I like it, but my last boat was no-chain and it liked it fine. Never dragged. But I used lots of scope. I also anchored shallow, so I was not hogging space... through if a place is crowded I'm probably not interested.

 

[Deleted member 117556]

Just sent PM

 

[JamesG161]

I'm sorry, but there are numerous errors in the above.

My advice is always worth what you paid for it.

I am glad I made you laugh.

Happy 4th of July

So...
How deep , How many anchors, and what sea state, What size windlass gypsy, do you plan for?

Jim...

 

[capta]

zero need for chain on the great lakes. zero!

The one summer I sailed on the Great Lakes, I found the weather to be quite changeable. Sudden, short lived storms seemed to come out of nowhere and drive us off the lakes, even though we were on an 80' motorsailor.
I would have been in serious distress had I not been using chain properly sized for that vessel. Chain is not just for chafe. It is about catenary which directs the pulling angle on the anchor and forms a shock absorbing curve in your chain.
You say 4:1 on line only is satisfactory, but never before have I heard or read that less than 5:1 is sufficient scope for line with some chain; 7:1 is recommended. Not one of the anchorages I was forced into had anything like 4:1 swinging room for a big boat like that, never mind 7:1. We did OK with the recommended 3:1 for our all chain rode, however.
You may be happy with your system and it may work just fine for you, but it goes against all good seamanship recommendations. Perhaps you should consider whether it is a good idea to suggest this practice to less knowledgeable sailors than yourself.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Perhaps you should consider whether it is a good idea to suggest this practice to less knowledgeable sailors than yourself.

Quite correct. There is a very good reasons "standards" and techniques of common practice have been developed. They work!

 

[gettinthere]

...and there are plenty of rocky places in the great lakes where chafe could be an issue, very rarely do people anchor in coral.
Weight of chain keeps keel wrap at bay.
Chafe at the bow roller is non existent with chain over the roller.
Shorter scope allows for less swing in tight spots.

 

[capta]

I'm sorry, but there are numerous errors in the above.
1. Rather than make possibly erroneous statements about sizes, refer folks to the NACM standard.
2. No idea where that comes from. read the NACM standard and ABYC H40 standard on ground tackle.
3. Laughably incorrect unless fully explained, and then a false comparison. Grade 43 chain is 25% stronger and Grade 70 chain is 50% stronger than stainless. True, stainless chain is generally stronger than galvinized proof coil, but why would I compare the most expensive chain to the cheapest possible chain?
4. Galvinized has been the standard forever. For those seeking state of the art, grade 70 and above are the bleeding edge. Also, the potential for stainless to crack has been side stepped. In fact, in order to avoid the risk of cracking, stainless should be retired after roughly the same service life as galvanized chain. It is still pretty after that, but like old standing rigging, safety may be only an illusion.

For chain and anchoring info, go the source. NACM and ABYC.

I think it is a misnomer to think that the strength of one's chain will have any effect after a certain point.
None of us on cruising boats, except possibly those sailing the lightest multihulls, has a boat that weighs less than the breaking strength or SWL of our chain. Therefore, once the chain is under load and straight from the anchor and the bow of the boat, it shouldn't be expected to hold the boat. Especially if one is pitching in big seas. This is why I use a good snub line with a chain hook. My longest snub is around 30' long. In a storm, I might have three snubs in play. THAT is what keeps my chain from breaking, not the strength of the chain!
Those of you using chain and nylon line are being even more wasteful with your money, if you are buying super strong, super expensive chain. The real strength in your set up is in the properly sized line.
So don't let those chain sales people talk you into that expensive chain. Stick with BBB for the weight and you'll sleep just fine at night.

 

[All U Get]

Just priced the 1/2 chain while in Hamilton Marine store this morning. They should have a bottle of oxygen next to the barrel. I almost passed out. Good thing they don't keep any stainless chain in that store.

All U Get

 

[jon hansen]

Capta, stu, i have enjoyed your posts, i sense your enthusiasm for the sport/hobby as i have as well.

you challenge my teachings of anchoring in a very polite , nice way. thankyou. so now i will respond to you with the information as i know it.

first i want to share with you that in his book, the complete cruiser, Herreshoff writes that the fluke , and plow , ..... all modern anchors are useless are for the ill informed. that the only anchor a sailor should have is a "fisherman"

so this discussion is not new.

what i share is for the newbe to learn as i understand these things.

next, today i googled 'anchoring yachts. i read 12 different sites giving their opinion. 11 said 4 to 1 going to 7 to 1 for max security. one site said 5 to 1 a/ 7 to 1. this is all without chain. one site said never, ever use 3 to 1 with chain. ever.
i do not care what these internet sites say as i have no idea as to their experiences. but , you mentioned 5 to 1 going to 10 to 1, i will tell you that i have never herd or read that. also, those statements in the inter net really have no true meaning as to having a good discusion on good anchoring habits so the newbies might learn something.

 

[jon hansen]

i called a friend, ocean big yacht captain, teaches CG masters courses on the side. he said they teach up here on the lakes today that no chain is required. they teach 4 to 1, and 7 to 1. as do i.

 

[jon hansen]

i have sailed sailboats for 57 years. i have well over 1,000,000 miles at sea. i am highly train with loads of experience. one thing i know for sure is i do not know it all but i sure do know a lot.

this is my 44th season with aeolus, my john alden caravelle 42. if this boat was a car it would be a duesenburg. it is a very nice ride in a seaway, very seakindly. it is a sailors sailboat, not a minny cargo sailboat. it shines with the sails up making way. it is not a modern style condo flavor that we see so much of that motors. 70, 80 % of the time.

aeolus came of of salt water with a 25lbs danforth mounted top center of the cabin trunk. 225 of anchor rode properly coiled and secured in a cockpit locker so that i can grab the rode, place on deck, run the eye out the bow chock back to the the anchor over the life lines, hook up the anchor and deploy all in under sixty seconds.

 

[jon hansen]

after i deploy the danforth i let aeolus back down by wind naturally or with engine. when i achieve a 4 to 1 scope i lock up the rode and put the perkens 107 in reverse and slowly increase the rpms till wot. let set for 20/ 30 seconds then slowly reduce rpm to idle. done.

sand, clay, mud, of which we have a lot of here on the lakes. that danforth sets every time. every time. no dragging. wot in reveres and the danforth sets. for 43 seasons, that danforth bites huge at 4 to 1.
a lot of time i will make the kids dive down to inspect the set. it teaches them. now these are facts not opinions of 57 years of sailling with great enthusiasam.
here on the lakes it is weeds and rocks that will screw up a set. thats simple to deal with. do not anchor there.

 

[capta]

Just priced the 1/2 chain while in Hamilton Marine store this morning. They should have a bottle of oxygen next to the barrel. I almost passed out. Good thing they don't keep any stainless chain in that store.

All U Get

Grab your bottle of oxygen!
I have been looking @ some Cromox 13mm anchor SS chain from Germany that retails @ E82.50 per meter, never mind freight, etc! Unfortunately, I have a ½" gypsy and @ around $1200.00, that pushes that chain way beyond the limits of affordable. That and the fact I couldn't possibly sail enough years to make that a good deal. If I were 20 years younger......?

 

[jssailem]

weeds and rocks that will screw up a set. thats simple to deal with. do not anchor there.

Thanks for sharing your background. It provides context to your thoughts and communications.
Such a simple solution. Seems we boaters assume that we should be able to park anywhere and everywhere. Maybe the reason the chart has "rky" printed about is it is not a good anchoring site...
Oh well.
Side note.... Mouth watering. O&H delivers tomorrow.