We've only owned the boat a year and have not taken the opportunity to anchor out yet. I took the time to pull out and measure all of anchor rode on our two anchors last week. One of them is a 33# Bruce with 90' of 5/16" chain and a total 180' length of rope, totalling 270'. We primarily cruise the Chesapeake Bay area and I feel our other anchor is adequate: 35# CQR with 25' of chain and 150' of rope for total of 175' rode. As a middle aged guy with a back prone to strains, the 90' of chain on the Bruce just seems like an awful lot of weight to have to take up manually. I don't really want to install yet another power consuming item, besides, the prices for electric windlasses are out of the question. I can see where having two anchors can come in handy, so here are my questions: 1) Can anyone recommend a manual windlass to give us a little more oommpf, or should I just shorten the chain? 2) Besides riding out a hurricane, under what circumstances would one need 90' of chain weight??
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Anchorman
Lewmar/Simpson Laurence makes a vertical manual windlass called he Anchorman. It basically looks like a big sheet winch with a rope/chain gypsy instead of a drum. Easy to install and operates with a standard winch handle. I use it with 33lb Bruce and 200' 5/16 high test chain and 200' 5/8 nylon. Works great. All stainless and bronze construction. Super good quality. It will likely last longer than I will. I highly recomend it if you don't want electric.
Lewmar/Simpson Laurence makes a vertical manual windlass called he Anchorman. It basically looks like a big sheet winch with a rope/chain gypsy instead of a drum. Easy to install and operates with a standard winch handle. I use it with 33lb Bruce and 200' 5/16 high test chain and 200' 5/8 nylon. Works great. All stainless and bronze construction. Super good quality. It will likely last longer than I will. I highly recomend it if you don't want electric.
I was just going to say keep the anchor
as a storm anchor. It could also become handy in anchoring in deeper waters. Bruce anchors were designed to provide short scope holding performance. The 90' of chain was probably intended for use as an all chain rode in busy anchorages. You would probably not need need to deploy all 90 ft of it in reasonably good weather and the shallow waters of the Bay. It seems like you intend to keep both anchors aboard and are just looking for ways to lighten the load. Just use the CQR as your primary and keep the Bruce for special anchoring requirements. I would recommend you make no decisions or modify your tackle until you try it out and see what works for you and what doesn't. To me a manual windlass is preferable to a power one.
as a storm anchor. It could also become handy in anchoring in deeper waters. Bruce anchors were designed to provide short scope holding performance. The 90' of chain was probably intended for use as an all chain rode in busy anchorages. You would probably not need need to deploy all 90 ft of it in reasonably good weather and the shallow waters of the Bay. It seems like you intend to keep both anchors aboard and are just looking for ways to lighten the load. Just use the CQR as your primary and keep the Bruce for special anchoring requirements. I would recommend you make no decisions or modify your tackle until you try it out and see what works for you and what doesn't. To me a manual windlass is preferable to a power one.
Paul, 270 feet of rode will allow you to anchor
safely in about 32 feet of water. In that case you need only lift 38 feet of chain at one time. (distance from your hands to the bottom). I use a 35 pound CQR and 30 feet of 3/8 chain and haul it in by hand and back. I try to anchor in water less than 15 feet deep. That is to keep me away from traffic. I don't know what you are sailing but my Bietzpadlin is only 30 feet and 9500 pounds. I do sleep well at night knowing my ground tackle is adequate. For those times when I am feeling like I have had too many birthdays I have a length on 3/8 laid line with a grab hook on it. When I am up to the chain and anchor I hook onto the chain and lead the 3/8 line to my sheet winch and haul away. Sometimes I must take a second purchase but it is only when anchor and chain are being raised together. Chain only is not a problem. In case you are wondering I am a towering 5'5" and 160 pounds.
safely in about 32 feet of water. In that case you need only lift 38 feet of chain at one time. (distance from your hands to the bottom). I use a 35 pound CQR and 30 feet of 3/8 chain and haul it in by hand and back. I try to anchor in water less than 15 feet deep. That is to keep me away from traffic. I don't know what you are sailing but my Bietzpadlin is only 30 feet and 9500 pounds. I do sleep well at night knowing my ground tackle is adequate. For those times when I am feeling like I have had too many birthdays I have a length on 3/8 laid line with a grab hook on it. When I am up to the chain and anchor I hook onto the chain and lead the 3/8 line to my sheet winch and haul away. Sometimes I must take a second purchase but it is only when anchor and chain are being raised together. Chain only is not a problem. In case you are wondering I am a towering 5'5" and 160 pounds.
Anchor Rode
I guess it WOULD help to have mentioned the boat size: Cal 34 displacement is 10,000 - 11,000 I think.
I guess it WOULD help to have mentioned the boat size: Cal 34 displacement is 10,000 - 11,000 I think.
A Little Salty Nomenclature
A Cal 34 is only 5 1/5 tons? Seems a little light. If the axis of the drum is vertical, it's a capstan, not a windlass, methinks.
A Cal 34 is only 5 1/5 tons? Seems a little light. If the axis of the drum is vertical, it's a capstan, not a windlass, methinks.
Paul, I would be reluctant to use anything smaller
There are many places where an anchorage is sheltered from three sides but exposed from one quarter. If the wind shifts to that quarter and you are on the end of a long fetch with a big anchor you can let out more rode and spend a secure but uncomfortable night. with a smaller anchor you can let out more rode and spend a nervous and uncomfortable night.
There are many places where an anchorage is sheltered from three sides but exposed from one quarter. If the wind shifts to that quarter and you are on the end of a long fetch with a big anchor you can let out more rode and spend a secure but uncomfortable night. with a smaller anchor you can let out more rode and spend a nervous and uncomfortable night.
Cal 34 Weight and Anchor questions
Thanks all for the great advice, especially about attaching a line in order to winch the chain up; never thought of that. Also didn't know that Bruce anchors are meant for short rode. This is why I post questions here, always great advice for novices like me. I checked my survey report and the displacement is 9500lbs....even lighter than my first guess. I think I may put that capstan/windlass on my Christmas list in a couple years, meanwhile I'll try things out for a summer or two first.
Thanks all for the great advice, especially about attaching a line in order to winch the chain up; never thought of that. Also didn't know that Bruce anchors are meant for short rode. This is why I post questions here, always great advice for novices like me. I checked my survey report and the displacement is 9500lbs....even lighter than my first guess. I think I may put that capstan/windlass on my Christmas list in a couple years, meanwhile I'll try things out for a summer or two first.
Your boat seems well equipped
You'll get 100 opinions so here's mine. Use the light one when you feel sure it's quiet, protected and will stay that way. The big'n, when in doubt. All chain rode is a good thing, it helps dramaticly to keep the anchor at the proper angle to hold. Just be sure to tie it with a rope snubber to take out some of the jolt. It is heavier, but I think you'll be suprised at how it looses weight when in the water.
You'll get 100 opinions so here's mine. Use the light one when you feel sure it's quiet, protected and will stay that way. The big'n, when in doubt. All chain rode is a good thing, it helps dramaticly to keep the anchor at the proper angle to hold. Just be sure to tie it with a rope snubber to take out some of the jolt. It is heavier, but I think you'll be suprised at how it looses weight when in the water.
Nomenclature
Just to add to the nomenclature confusion, when you say the number of tons of a vessel, it is not the same as it is on land. On land a ton is a measure of weight -- 2000 pounds, or 2200 for a metric ton. But on a vessel, its a measure of volume, so I believe a 100 ton vessel has a volume of 10,000 cubic feet. Except it is measured in accordance with some really obscure rules that I certainly have never tried to understand. But on your boat, 10,000 pounds is not five tons. Someone on here who is more expert than I am will surely feel free to explain this stuff.
Just to add to the nomenclature confusion, when you say the number of tons of a vessel, it is not the same as it is on land. On land a ton is a measure of weight -- 2000 pounds, or 2200 for a metric ton. But on a vessel, its a measure of volume, so I believe a 100 ton vessel has a volume of 10,000 cubic feet. Except it is measured in accordance with some really obscure rules that I certainly have never tried to understand. But on your boat, 10,000 pounds is not five tons. Someone on here who is more expert than I am will surely feel free to explain this stuff.
Your anchors are on the heavy side....
for your size boat, but that just gives you a better safety margin, so no need or use to replace them. Even if you did, you'd only save perhaps 5 or 8 pounds, for the cost of a lot of boat bucks. Your 90 feet of chain, however, probably isn't doing you much good. Chain has 2 characteristics which make it important for anchoring: chafe resistance and catenary. Chafe resistance is a concern mostly around coral or very rocky anchorages. If this is a serious concern for you, then you should get more chain so you can have an all-chain rode. Catenary simply means that the weight of the chain forms a curve under most conditions that causes the pull on the embedded anchor to be closer to horizontal, which is ideal. The two conditions where catenary is NOT a consideration are: 1. There isn't enough force on the boat to make it lift all the chain off the bottom, so it 'rests on the chain'. This is characteristic of extremely peaceful anchorages, so your long chain isn't doing you any good. 2. The force on the boat is high enough to lift the chain off the bottom, making the anchor rode essentially straight from the anchor to the boat. Once this condition is achieved, you're better off with all-nylon, due to its elasticisity (sp). For your 90' of chain, assuming you are anchored in 12' (plus 3' to deck level), the force necessary to lift all your chain off the bottom is 377 pounds. If you decrease your chain to 30', the force necessary decreases to 41 pounds. (for those who want to do the math, see the link below) - (in general, the 'anchor catenary factor' increases by the square of the length of the chain) That probably looks like a significant difference, but is it really? I don't think so, and here's why: Once the rode is taut, you have to deal with angulation, which is the angle between the bottom and the rode. Any angle greater than zero (horizontal) decreases the anchor's holding power, which is why SCOPE is so important, because it decreases angulation. Once the rode is taut, the chain ceaces to provide any advantage A 35# CQR (or a 33# Bruce), properly set, has a holding strength of several thousand pounds - this is a very subjective number, but let's say it is 1,000#. So here's my point: While 90' of chain won't go taut until 377 pounds of force are applied, that is still WAY short of the holding power of the anchor....... and once the rode is taut, the extra chain is actually a detriment rather than an advantage, because the elasticity of nylon helps absorb high shock loads. And since your anchor will hold just fine when the force is between 41# (with 30' of chain) and 377# (with 90'), those extra 60' of chain aren't really anything but more weight in the bow, and more strain on your back. So to answer your question #2, Paul, by the time you're sitting out a hurricane, your chain isn't going to do you any good - in fact, as a guess, 30 knots of wind will draw your rode tight even with 90' of chain. My 2c: use the CQR with the 25' of chain, but a longer nylon rode. When it's blowin' like stink, SCOPE is the critical factor, because it decreases angulation and, as we've seen, it's ALL about the angulation.
Cheers, Bob s/v X SAIL R 8
for your size boat, but that just gives you a better safety margin, so no need or use to replace them. Even if you did, you'd only save perhaps 5 or 8 pounds, for the cost of a lot of boat bucks. Your 90 feet of chain, however, probably isn't doing you much good. Chain has 2 characteristics which make it important for anchoring: chafe resistance and catenary. Chafe resistance is a concern mostly around coral or very rocky anchorages. If this is a serious concern for you, then you should get more chain so you can have an all-chain rode. Catenary simply means that the weight of the chain forms a curve under most conditions that causes the pull on the embedded anchor to be closer to horizontal, which is ideal. The two conditions where catenary is NOT a consideration are: 1. There isn't enough force on the boat to make it lift all the chain off the bottom, so it 'rests on the chain'. This is characteristic of extremely peaceful anchorages, so your long chain isn't doing you any good. 2. The force on the boat is high enough to lift the chain off the bottom, making the anchor rode essentially straight from the anchor to the boat. Once this condition is achieved, you're better off with all-nylon, due to its elasticisity (sp). For your 90' of chain, assuming you are anchored in 12' (plus 3' to deck level), the force necessary to lift all your chain off the bottom is 377 pounds. If you decrease your chain to 30', the force necessary decreases to 41 pounds. (for those who want to do the math, see the link below) - (in general, the 'anchor catenary factor' increases by the square of the length of the chain) That probably looks like a significant difference, but is it really? I don't think so, and here's why: Once the rode is taut, you have to deal with angulation, which is the angle between the bottom and the rode. Any angle greater than zero (horizontal) decreases the anchor's holding power, which is why SCOPE is so important, because it decreases angulation. Once the rode is taut, the chain ceaces to provide any advantage A 35# CQR (or a 33# Bruce), properly set, has a holding strength of several thousand pounds - this is a very subjective number, but let's say it is 1,000#. So here's my point: While 90' of chain won't go taut until 377 pounds of force are applied, that is still WAY short of the holding power of the anchor....... and once the rode is taut, the extra chain is actually a detriment rather than an advantage, because the elasticity of nylon helps absorb high shock loads. And since your anchor will hold just fine when the force is between 41# (with 30' of chain) and 377# (with 90'), those extra 60' of chain aren't really anything but more weight in the bow, and more strain on your back. So to answer your question #2, Paul, by the time you're sitting out a hurricane, your chain isn't going to do you any good - in fact, as a guess, 30 knots of wind will draw your rode tight even with 90' of chain. My 2c: use the CQR with the 25' of chain, but a longer nylon rode. When it's blowin' like stink, SCOPE is the critical factor, because it decreases angulation and, as we've seen, it's ALL about the angulation.
Cheers, Bob s/v X SAIL R 8numerous tons!
Well ya see, it's like dis... A document ton is what she'll carry. A displacement ton is what she weighs. So you got your long ton, your metric ton, and (as they say down in Texas) your shit ton. You got your half-ton, quarter-ton and your one-ton duelly. You're in a ton of trouble if you don't know the difference. 'specially if she's a ton-o-fun.
Well ya see, it's like dis... A document ton is what she'll carry. A displacement ton is what she weighs. So you got your long ton, your metric ton, and (as they say down in Texas) your shit ton. You got your half-ton, quarter-ton and your one-ton duelly. You're in a ton of trouble if you don't know the difference. 'specially if she's a ton-o-fun.
OK math whizzes
You can pull all the #'s out of whatever book you're using. I don't care. The boat is properly outfitted. I'm 52 and a whopping 145lbs and had no trouble pulling an all chain anchor on a 38 Moody when anchored. The seasoned Captain on that voyage swore by chain and I believe him. On the coast of Cozmel the wind picked up in a big way and he calmly said "all chain, sleep well". I don't think your calculations take into account there is still sag in a chain and that weight cushions pull on the anchor. For bay sailing it may be a tad overkill but the option is spending money on what, an underweight anchor or rhode? Come on, this guy has a good secure setup. Paul, try it, sleep well, then think about lightening and the doubt it might cause. I prefer to sleep well.
You can pull all the #'s out of whatever book you're using. I don't care. The boat is properly outfitted. I'm 52 and a whopping 145lbs and had no trouble pulling an all chain anchor on a 38 Moody when anchored. The seasoned Captain on that voyage swore by chain and I believe him. On the coast of Cozmel the wind picked up in a big way and he calmly said "all chain, sleep well". I don't think your calculations take into account there is still sag in a chain and that weight cushions pull on the anchor. For bay sailing it may be a tad overkill but the option is spending money on what, an underweight anchor or rhode? Come on, this guy has a good secure setup. Paul, try it, sleep well, then think about lightening and the doubt it might cause. I prefer to sleep well.
90' of chain isn't 'all-chain', Doug.....
and that was the point of my post. Paul didn't ask if all-chain was better, he wanted to know if he needed the 90' he has. My answer, including the 'whizzy math', was intended to show him that 90' of chain doesn't do anything significantly better for him than 30' would. I also took into account his location, and mentioned the advantages of all-chain rodes: chafe resistance and catenary (what you are calling 'sag', Doug). For cruising sailors (such as your seasoned skipper and his Moody 38), there really is NO substitute for an all-chain rode, mainly because of the chafe resistance, and despite the lack of elasticity (which must be compensated for by use of a snubber). Having been on several scuba dive trips to the Carribean (including Cozumel) I can attest to the prevalence of coral, not just the large reefs, but also random small formations all over the place. A weekend sailor in the Chesapeake Bay or similar sailing ground, however, doesn't really need an all-chain rode, and from what I've heard and read, few have one. So I stand by my answer to Paul, given his circumstances - there is no real advantage to an extra 60' of chain on his rode, especially given his bad back. If that extra 60' helps him sleep better (even though it does him no practical good), then he just has to balance that against his bad back when it comes time to weigh anchor. If he was a cruiser, or sailing in coral/rock infested waters, the answer would be different: go all-chain and spring for the windlass. Here is another explanation of catenary (sag) which, without the whizzy math, compares different combinations of rode. It includes a spreadsheet (which I haven't tried) for doing your own whizzy calculations. Cheers, Bob s/v X SAIL R 8
and that was the point of my post. Paul didn't ask if all-chain was better, he wanted to know if he needed the 90' he has. My answer, including the 'whizzy math', was intended to show him that 90' of chain doesn't do anything significantly better for him than 30' would. I also took into account his location, and mentioned the advantages of all-chain rodes: chafe resistance and catenary (what you are calling 'sag', Doug). For cruising sailors (such as your seasoned skipper and his Moody 38), there really is NO substitute for an all-chain rode, mainly because of the chafe resistance, and despite the lack of elasticity (which must be compensated for by use of a snubber). Having been on several scuba dive trips to the Carribean (including Cozumel) I can attest to the prevalence of coral, not just the large reefs, but also random small formations all over the place. A weekend sailor in the Chesapeake Bay or similar sailing ground, however, doesn't really need an all-chain rode, and from what I've heard and read, few have one. So I stand by my answer to Paul, given his circumstances - there is no real advantage to an extra 60' of chain on his rode, especially given his bad back. If that extra 60' helps him sleep better (even though it does him no practical good), then he just has to balance that against his bad back when it comes time to weigh anchor. If he was a cruiser, or sailing in coral/rock infested waters, the answer would be different: go all-chain and spring for the windlass. Here is another explanation of catenary (sag) which, without the whizzy math, compares different combinations of rode. It includes a spreadsheet (which I haven't tried) for doing your own whizzy calculations.
Cheers, Bob s/v X SAIL R 8Agreed
Doug, I agree. There is a reason that 9 out of 10 cruising boats have 150 feet or more of chain. I have anchored in some fairly nasty conditions (50+MPH) and I have never ever wished that I had a lighter more easily handled set-up. I always use all chain with a 30 foot double bridle of 5/8 nylon hooked to the chain with a chain grabber and cleated to the port and starboard bow cleats. I have another snubber made of 25 feet of 3/4 nylon with a chain hook that I attach to a stainless bollard on the fordeck when it gets to 25+ mph. In 30 years I have never dragged anchor. I do not loose sleep at an anchorage. I anchor a lot.
Doug, I agree. There is a reason that 9 out of 10 cruising boats have 150 feet or more of chain. I have anchored in some fairly nasty conditions (50+MPH) and I have never ever wished that I had a lighter more easily handled set-up. I always use all chain with a 30 foot double bridle of 5/8 nylon hooked to the chain with a chain grabber and cleated to the port and starboard bow cleats. I have another snubber made of 25 feet of 3/4 nylon with a chain hook that I attach to a stainless bollard on the fordeck when it gets to 25+ mph. In 30 years I have never dragged anchor. I do not loose sleep at an anchorage. I anchor a lot.
Wind blows everywhere
Bob, are you saying that there would never be a time on the Chesapeke that a skipper would want or need more than a lunch rig? Just because someone is a "daysailor" doesn't mean that they will never get caught out there in some bad stuff. What if he looses his engine, has a rigging failure, and it is blowing a Northeaster Gale? Paul, Keep the chain... maybe add more. Get a windlass. This is your last line of defense and your life could depend on it.
Bob, are you saying that there would never be a time on the Chesapeke that a skipper would want or need more than a lunch rig? Just because someone is a "daysailor" doesn't mean that they will never get caught out there in some bad stuff. What if he looses his engine, has a rigging failure, and it is blowing a Northeaster Gale? Paul, Keep the chain... maybe add more. Get a windlass. This is your last line of defense and your life could depend on it.
Here is my thought on the issue...
We just got back from nine days in the Keys, hopping islands for spring break. Last week, the wind conditions in the Keys was nothing short of amazing. 15-20 knots prevailing, with gusts 30+. My boat is a 25 Oday, equipped with a Fortress FX 11, 6 feet of chain and 150' or three strand rope rode. More than adequate for Tampa Bay conditions. We anchored in Marathon boot Key Harbor Thursday night, and dragged and dragged and dragged. My set up was not right for the conditions of the anchorage. The anchor would dig in, but the bottom was not sand. It was silt and muck. After breaking loose the second time and coming close to the boat behind us, we decided to sneak into the city dock and tie up for at a least a couple of hours of sleep. It was now 1 a.m. when this decision was made. What I learned... the anchor is fantastic, works almost everytime under the conditions that we normally anchor in. But in that anchorage, I was bringing a knife to a gun fight. I needed a heavy plow and a lot more chain. I am increasing my chain to 30 ft. Like someone before said, I have never heard anyone say they had less chain. I will begin my investigating on an addition anchor, probably an oversized claw. This way I can be better equipped to handle what Momma Nature throws our way. Ross in Tampa 1979 Oday 25, "Lola"
We just got back from nine days in the Keys, hopping islands for spring break. Last week, the wind conditions in the Keys was nothing short of amazing. 15-20 knots prevailing, with gusts 30+. My boat is a 25 Oday, equipped with a Fortress FX 11, 6 feet of chain and 150' or three strand rope rode. More than adequate for Tampa Bay conditions. We anchored in Marathon boot Key Harbor Thursday night, and dragged and dragged and dragged. My set up was not right for the conditions of the anchorage. The anchor would dig in, but the bottom was not sand. It was silt and muck. After breaking loose the second time and coming close to the boat behind us, we decided to sneak into the city dock and tie up for at a least a couple of hours of sleep. It was now 1 a.m. when this decision was made. What I learned... the anchor is fantastic, works almost everytime under the conditions that we normally anchor in. But in that anchorage, I was bringing a knife to a gun fight. I needed a heavy plow and a lot more chain. I am increasing my chain to 30 ft. Like someone before said, I have never heard anyone say they had less chain. I will begin my investigating on an addition anchor, probably an oversized claw. This way I can be better equipped to handle what Momma Nature throws our way. Ross in Tampa 1979 Oday 25, "Lola"
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