Alternator Upgrade suggestions

Stu Jackson · Jul 6, 2016

With a genset on board, why bother? Really. What are your cruising plans, current and future? Has the electrical system been working for you so far? Anything about to change?

gunni, you know I am a proponent of a rugged electrical system but given your system as it is, even if you're going to anchor out a lot more than you may currently do, it is always better to use a genset to recharge batteries than an engine.

Your Hitachi alternator has its limitations (I hope you've read Maine Sail's treatise on this, if not let me know). But unless you're going to be motoring more than you have, or doing the ICW where getting a good charge from a day's motoring would be most ideal, you should have a good systems design criteria for WHY you think you need (or want?) to do this before you start listing work order items.

Bill Roosa · Jul 6, 2016

I agree with Stu on the alt upgrade.
I personally would go for some solar or wind (depends on how you sail and where) so you don't have to listen to the genset while at anchor.
As for a serpentine belt that would be needed if you are trying to draw more than about 80 amps from a single V belt setup. Also, a serpentine will make adding more pulleys (water maker, reefer/fridge compressor) an exercise in "I should have begun with the end in mind." Sometimes adding a second V belt is cheaper and gives you some redundancy.

Bill Roosa · Jul 6, 2016

Define your end state system. I want a, b, c,d,.... then realize that you can't have them all right now or that you will need a different boat for the whole list. Decide what you want now. figure out what the best upgrade path is to minimize cost.

Maine Sail · Jul 6, 2016

Gunni said:
I'm pretty much there, just looking for alternative high-output amperage device that can service my house loads for 7 days, with the ability to add a WM pump, pulley and new serpentine belt to what I install now. A couple of hours motorsailing with a high-output alternator gets me there.

I would suggest a derated 120A to 140A small case alt with serpentine kit. You do not need a hairpin alt. Pair the alt with a Balmar MC-614, alt and battery temp sensors and wire it up correctly, perhaps 97% of them are not wired properly, and you will have a dramatic improvement in charging performance over the stock Hitachi.

My own alts use the same base frame as the Balmar 6-Series and E-Maax, a variation of the Delco CS130D, with a custom front and back casting.

If you are buying just an alt my CMI alts are pretty competitive, and very well built right here in Maine USA, but if you are buying the whole shebang an entire Balmar kit is not that far off as I can get a larger discount for entire packages..

I had a customer flag me down on the dock last week to thank me. Over the winter I installed a Balmar 6 series 150A alt derated to roughly 115A... He sees 115A now, a .21C charge rate, for in excess of 1.25 hours where his Hitachi would be down to 25A - 35A within 10-15 minutes. Last summer, with the stock Hitachi, the highest SOC he saw on the SmartGauge was 78% and his AGM bank was starting to suffer badly.. This year he is seeing upwards of 91-93% with the only change being the alt upgrade.

As for watermakers or other pulley take offs I do these all the time with serpentine kits and it is a non-issue. My own boat has SeaFrost refrigeration and I simply machined off the thickness of the serp crank pulley, about 1/8", from the back of the SeaFrost v-pulley.

Do you "need" to do this? Hell no, and we don't "need" to own boats either...

Stu Jackson · Jul 6, 2016

Gunni said:
My hitachi puts out maybe 25 amps continuous - inadequate. So I guess my next question is what is the delta between a decent externally controlled alternator and a real high output alternator.

OK, we have the same daily draw and "being out" goals. And since you know about your Hitachi, we can avoid having that discussion again.

A "real high output" alternator is really not much different than a "decent externally controlled alternator." I have a rebuilt Delco 100A alternator with a Balmar MC-612 that's been running just fine for years. I've found a local alternator shop who checked both of my alternators out, I have a complete backup one. My Link 2000 tells me that I get up to 60A out of it with a 50% SOC on my 400 ah wet cell house bank. Of course, that soon, but not so rapidly drops off, so until it does I use the small engine mode. With AGMs, you'd just get more acceptance, so you'd start to deal with the external regulator's amp or belt manager feature or small engine mode (which is what I use). I do all of this with a 3/8" Gates belt.

You could get a Leece Neville from ASE Supply for a lot less than a new Balmar. Maine Sail is somewhat more up to speed on sources than I am. (this is old: Alternator Sources by Maine Sail (Reply #16)
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5686.15.html)

gunni, note there are two pages to that link, the link goes to the second page, please read them both.

Here are the discussions we've had about this, and you might remember some from Maine Sail on this forum, too. There are long discussions about various ways to deal with controlling alternator heat (over heat - temp sensors), battery temp and output. Some logic thrown in, too, for grins & giggles.

Alternator heat, Regulator Controls, Small Engine Mode

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4454.0.html

Small Engine Mode - discussion with link to the picture of the toggle switch: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4454.msg27149.html#msg27149

Small Engine Mode - the picture of the toggle switch http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4669.0.html

MitchM · Jul 7, 2016

be sure to check with your Yan mar dealer. some Yan engines do not take kindly to efforts to upgrade alternators. then your ABYC certified mechanic is stuck with an alt too big for your engine, and you are stuck with a huge bill for installing and uninstalling a part that won't work.

scottdube · Jul 9, 2016

Gunni,

I spent a year out cruising. I went with solar, genset and 80 amp stock hitachi alternator with a Sterling power booster external regulator. We had a modest house bank of 4 T-105s. What I found was that the genset was not reliable and that the engine and solar panels were very necessary. The genset is great to have but a very serious redundant system is important when out for more than just the weekend. I would put in a substantial alternator and an inverter big enough to run the biggest AC appliance you need to use. That way if the genset is broken you have a way to do what needs to be done. I just today did the serpentine conversion and wish I did it a long time ago. I did it because of belt dust and belt wear issues. But it looks like a very good upgrade. Good luck!

Bob 04 H260 · Jul 18, 2016

I put an Electromaxx 140 A (run at 100A) on our Yanmar with the Balmar regulator and battery/alt temp probes and 1" serpentine belt kit. I had solar and a Nextgen 3.5kw, and Sterling 50A charger. House bank was AGM's. Lots of redundancy and with AGM's they will accept 90 A happily. I was able to reduce the size of the house bank saving weight and money and a smaller bank gets back to 100% every day.
Always good to have a backup !
Good luck, Bob

Bob 04 H260 · Jul 18, 2016

Gunni said:
Thanks Bob, how long has your Electomaax been in service?
G

It been on for 4 years. The serpentine belt kit went on well. Electromaxx sent me the wrong installation instructions so the colour codes on the wires were incorrect. We were living aboard at the time in Florida so trying to trouble shoot and communicate was an issue. Eventually it was all sorted out. They supplied a Sterling reg. initialy and it died in a year. Sterling would not stand behind it. Electromaxx sold me a Balmar at cost. Was very pleased with it. Overall a very good product and an honest company to deal with. The phone is often answered by John the owner, I liked that.
Bob

Maine Sail · Jul 19, 2016

Bob 04 H260 said:
Lots of redundancy and with AGM's they will accept 90 A happily. I was able to reduce the size of the house bank saving weight and money and a smaller bank gets back to 100% every day.

The acceptance rate of the battery & chemistry dictate how long to return to 100% SOC. The only part of the equation we can change is the bulk charging speed or the constant current stage of charging. Once the batteries have hit absorption voltage (constant voltage stage)it is the battery that determines how long it takes to get to 100% SOC. On most sailboats, no matter how much current you throw at a battery, you will not hit 100% SOC in a day, especially with an alternator, unless you are running a shore charger or motoring for hours on end..

Even brand spanking new AGM batteries take a minimum of about 5.5 hours, using lab grade equipment, to go from 50% SOC to 100% SOC and this is holding the absorption voltage until the battery attains the proper 0.5% or less acceptance rate for Lifelines (0.5A accepted current for a 100Ah battery at absorption voltage) something field equipment just does not do. Other brands such as Odyssey and East Penn can't be considered full or at 100% SOC until 0.3% acceptance at absorption voltage or just 0.3A for a 100Ah battery at absorption voltage (must be measured at absorption NOT float).

You can get to the low to mid 90's with a .4C charge rate in about 2 hours (40A charge rate for a 100Ah bank) but the remaining few percent take an additional 3.5 hours and this is with healthy batteries suffering from no sulfation.

Folks often believe a large charge rate, 40% of Ah capacity vs. say 20% of Ah capacity, will get to 100% SOC faster but it really changes this total time frame by a very small duration. At a .4C charge rate you may hit 100% SOC from 50% SOC at 5.5 hours and at .2C you are looking at about 5.75 hours (this is with lab grade equipment and is not easily repeated on a boat).

In other words a doubling of the charge rate only makes a 15 minute difference in the time to 100% SOC. By actually increasing the bank size you make more efficient use of the alternator, full output for longer, and bulk is nearly 100% charge efficient meaning every Ah put in is an Ah getting stored. You can pack more usable bulk charging energy into a shorter time frame by increasing bank size. Once absorption voltage is attained charge efficiency begins dropping off and the system efficiency worsens. Towards the tail end of charging the Coulombic efficiency means only half of each Ah delivered is actually being stored as usable capacity and this is why the last few % of capacity takes the most time to put back....

The charge rate, AGM brand and type, age & sulfation level, charger quality and programming as well as voltage sensing all need to be in line to achieve the shortest time frame to 100% SOC. For the average marine charging equipment (most all of it drops to float far too early and lacks dedicated voltage sensing) you are looking at 7+ hours to go from 50% SOC to 100% SOC with very healthy batteries.. Sadly most sailors are unwilling to run an engine this long so they relay on shore power or a few days of solar for returning back to 100% SOC.

Low to mid 90's in terms of SOC, with AGM batteries, is achievable in about 2 hours with a .4C charge rate but the time to 100% is still going to be in excess of 5.5 hours..

Bob 04 H260 · Jul 19, 2016

Our energy budget was 80 to 120 Ahr per day. When I ran the high output alternator in the morning the AGM's very quickly got their bulk charge (I only had a 200 Ahr bank). The 325 W solar panel then ran the refrigerator/freezer with enough current to hold absorption voltage of 14.7 per Odyssey recommendation. Odyssey recommends holding 14.7 V for 8 Hrs. As mentioned not usually very practical on a boat.
The Victron battery monitor indicated 100% SOC around noon hour. The Rogue solar controller maintained the 14.7 absorption voltage usually hitting float and dropping down to 13.6. later in the day. Without a much bigger solar panel I could not have done this on a bigger bank.

My feeling is with AGM's a big alternator, moderate solar panel, and smaller bank really helps to extend the battery bank life by getting them as close to 100% as possible as often as possible. This is really only a concern for live a boards, the weekend warriors have all week to top off the bank with a small panel or shore power. For commuter cruisers AGM's may be a good choice with a boat unattended for 6 or more months of the year.

Bob