Alternator Temperature Sensors
- Thread starter dlochner
- Start date
No, it does no,t unless Dometic recently changed something but, they don't even answer phones so that is doubtful as everyone that knew anything there left....
Well that sucks. What is the issue preventing the Arco 225 from taking the J10? I thought the shaft size was the same. I was just starting to plan my 12V alternator upgrade and thought I could remove the J6 from the Arco and put the Balmar J10 on it.
They did. I sent in a support request online over the last weekend, on Monday afternoon I got a response.
The shaft diameter is the same, however the J6 pulley has a small protrusion on the back of the pulley that allows it to be screwed down tight. The J10 lacks this protrusion and cannot be tightened down. I was dealing with The Yacht Rigger in St Petersburg FL and they were going to let ARCO know, I also sent in a comment to them about the same issue.
Since Arco is in Pensacola, you might stop by and inquire, maybe if they get enough disgruntled Balmar Altmount customers complaining they'll figure out a solution.
That's great info. The 614 does not handle it this way, and just goes to 50% field if the temp limit is reached. I've been trying to find out if the 618 handles it more gracefully.
We have the Zeus 275A alternator, and there was no problem at all putting the Balmar J10 pulley on it. I just looked at the 225A models and they have the same shaft diameter, length, and thread as ours. It does come with a J6 pulley, but you just remove that and stick the J10 on.
Now I need to know where you are shopping. The Zeus regulator is ~$800 every place I look. I can find the Zeus 225A alternator at ~$700 now (wow, that price has dropped!), so that supports the $1400 you paid, but the regulator by itself is ~$800. In contrast, a Balmar 618 is ~$270, and the communication cable allowing bluetooth access is ~$30 - so ~$300 in total.
So prices on the Zeus have come down a bit, but the Balmar remains ~$500 less. I can't buy four of them, but can almost buy 3 of them for the price of the Zeus. Zeus seems to have a locked selling price, while Balmar's price differs greatly among resellers (which is why I found it for less than West Marine Pro), so let's be conservative and call the Zeus 2x more expensive.
I don't disagree that the Zeus regulator is better than the Balmar, but that "better" is mostly in included features that have no use to me and my application. If one had a large alternator on a small engine, or a centralized communication system, or several other reasons, then it would be more appropriate than the Balmar.
The Zeus alternator is better than the Balmar in every way - less expensive, runs cooler, outputs more at lower rpm, maintains its output at higher temps, etc. We have been very impressed with ours.
Mark
Interesting. There was no problem putting the J10 on our Zeus 275A. I never noticed a protrusion on the J6, and it is buried away now, so can't look at it easily. What is the protrusion - a notch or something?
Mark
Just to clarify, that is the "sensor enforcement" feature. This feature is a fail-over to better protect the alternator if a sensor fails, by dropping the field current (to 50% if alt temp fails, and to 12% if batt temp fails). This feature apparently requires both sensors to be present, and I can understand why. However, this feature can be turned off, and the temp sensors work as normal, as well as independently, where either sensor can be missing without effecting the other.
The 618 doesn't require both sensors to be present to work properly (and it works just like the 614 in this way) - it only requires both to be present if one wants to use that particular feature.
The sensor itself is just a LM235, which costs $0.50. I might just stick one on the batt sens terminals to use that feature. On the other hand, we have two alternators, so I should probably have a spare temp sensor anyway - use it for that feature, and be a spare if one fails (and turn the feature off).
Mark
I'm just curious why upgrade to a 618 from a 614. I realize it is Bluetooth making it easier to program but how often are you changing the charging profile? I'm kinda in the process now and have been reading until my eyes hurt. So much information out there. I have to reread a few times before it starts to make sense
We are full-time cruisers and will be heading across the Pacific next year. I want a spare regulator to our current 614's, so might as well get the 618, swap it with the 614 on our HO alternator, and keep the 614 as the spare.
Otherwise, I agree with you and wouldn't change one for the other just to get the bluetooth.
Mark
As Mark suggests, which regulator you install is really dependent on what your needs are and the kind of sailing you do.I'm just curious why upgrade to a 618 from a 614. I realize it is Bluetooth making it easier to program but how often are you changing the charging profile? I'm kinda in the process now and have been reading until my eyes hurt. So much information out there. I have to reread a few times before it starts to make sense
The big advantage to the 618 over the 614 is Blue Tooth for programming and monitoring. To get Blue tooth you will need to add a Balmar Smart Shunt and/or a SG 200, the 618 alone won't run on BT. The BT programming makes it easier to fine tune the alternator output. The monitoring shows the Alt Temp, Field %, and a couple of other data points I don't pay much attention to and can't recall. If you are changing batteries, especially to LFP the 618 is worth considering for easier programming and more importantly easier performance monitoring. For short term cruising this is adequate enough.
If you are looking at going cruising for longer periods of time then a Wakespeed or Zeus regulator is worth looking into. It costs more however, they are more efficient and fine tune the alternator performance to a greater degree than the 618.
On a total system upgrade, the Zeus Regulator and the 225a 12v alternator is cost competitive with a similar Balmar system. One attraction of the 225a alternator is its output curve, it is more efficient at lower rpm than its big brother. When I was confronted with an alternator replacement, that is what attracted me to the system.
This was not my experience. When the Sensor Enforcement was turned off, the alternator temp would rise well above the set point. I had the temp set at 90°C without Sen, the temperature rose to over 100°C and was still climbing when I turned it on, at which point the Field dropped to 16%. This with just the Alt Temp sensor attached and no battery temp sensor.
I paid $717 with free shipping on sale and the normal price is $795. That price includes all needed wires so that would mean that the Balmar would be between $100 and $200 total. I also do not have any need for CAN but still find the regulation far superior to what the 618 can do.
My alternator came with a J6 and I removed it and reinstalled the J10 that came with my serpentine belt kit. As far as I have seen, most alternators use the same diameter shaft, so the pulleys are interchangeable.
The J10 pulley had the same shaft diameter, what it needed a spacer. The threads were not deep enough on the shaft to tighten the nut completely. A small spacer, maybe 3/16" or ¼" would have taken up the space and aligned the pulley better. Since this was an urgent and time sensitive alternator replacement we just didn't the time to spend on locating a machine shop to make one for us. The Yacht Riggers in St. Petersburg would have arranged to have one made, but that would have taken time and more money. Besides we were on the Florida east coast, Yacht Riggers were on the west coast and driving between the two was not fun.
I can see the advantage convenience of Bluetooth on the 618 especially on a new to me design. I currently have the 614 paired with a Balmar 150 alt. and am in the process of upgrading to lithium. Last upgrade was in 2017 rewiring all charges to the house (6GC) and an echo charger to the start. I think the most confusing aspect is setting up the charging profile for multiple charging devices. Bluetooth would definitely make it easier to tweak.
I don't see why length of cruising makes a difference. We've been at it full time for 16yrs and still going, but I don't see a single functionality difference between our current Balmar 614's and the Wakespeed or Zeus that would make any difference to us. I do see their advantages for particular cases like a large alternator on a small engine where output control with rpm is needed, or the desire to have it report back to some centralized monitoring system. But I don't understand what those have to do with length or type of cruising.
The Zeus alternators are great. I am very happy with ours, and it performs exactly as the marketing states. They are much less expensive than Balmar alternators also, which makes me wonder why anyone even buys Balmar anymore.
But the 225A is not more efficient at lower rpm than the 275A. Both of them beat the pants off other HO alternators at low rpm, but within the family, the output curves are proportional to the alternator size, with the 225A being ~20% lower at low rpm.
Both are amazing at low rpm. with only a 2:1 pulley ratio, our 275A outputs 150A at idle (engine 850rpm)! Bumping up to 1000rpm on the engine gives us 175A, and at 1400rpm it produces 250A dropping to a continuous 210A after 30min when it is at temp.
Your Balmar isn't a slouch here, and should be about this, and just proportional to the size differences between the brands. Other HO alternators don't come close at all.
That's too bad. I just ordered a 618 today thinking differently. However, I also ordered some $0.27 LM235's, so can stick one on the battery sensor inputs.
I don't understand why the 618 would perform differently with the Sensor Enforcement off than the 614 that doesn't have Sensor Enforcement, but that's Balmar for you. I'll play with it when I get it and see.
Mark
Yeah, I ordered a Balmar 618 today for $270 total delivered in 2 days, and looked again at the Zeus. Sure, I could wait around hoping someone puts the Zeus on sale real soon, but the price everywhere is $795 right now. So the price difference is a bit less than I stated earlier - the Balmar is only 3x cheaper.
With the exception of being able to vary output with rpm (and I'm not sure the Zeus actually does this), I can't think of any way it regulates an alternator any differently, particularly better, than the 618. I mean, the alternator needs field current, and the regulator needs to know the battery voltage and the alternator temperature. The 618 does this. Maybe the Zeus handles temperature with more delicacy (I don't know), but our alternator doesn't overheat at full output regardless, so this isn't an issue for me. With LFP batteries, I just want the alternator to charge to full and shut down, which the 618 does well. I don't need to know tail current or to hold a float voltage, or even to re-engage automatically.
I guess I'm not sure what "far superior" regulation looks like. Our current 614 runs the alternator at full bore output until the batteries reach the voltage I set it to, then turns itself off. What more should I expect of it?
Mark
Oh, that. Yes, I did need a small spacer to make the alignment work. I took the spacer off the OEM alternator we replaced and put it on the Zeus and everything was perfectly aligned. Otherwise, the threads on my Zeus were definitely deep enough to not need a spacer - the spacer was just for alignment purposes.
The spacer I used from our old alternator was just two common washers (painted green because Volvo), so ones from a hardware store could be used.
The Balmar alternator I installed on our last boat also needed spacers behind the pulley to align with the engine.
Mark
The Zeus definitely does this. Our Genset replacement is a 48V APS 6kW mounted on one of our 3YM30s and we are using that feature to limit the power based on RPM.
Thanks, I wasn't sure. A previous thread discussed this feature wrt Wakespeed, Zeus, and Revetek, but I had forgotten which did what there.
In our case, we have a 3.5kW alternator on a 55hp engine, so don't need this functionality.
Mark
The rpm control is the biggy for me. spinning 250A from a 35-year old 23-hp engine takes some control.