Alternator Temperature Sensors

Jan 11, 2014
12,688
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
On an externally regulated alternator without a dedicated place to attach a temperature sensor, where is the best place to attach one to use with a Balmar regulator?

Can a "battery temp sensor" be used on the DC- post on the alternator?
 
Jan 11, 2014
12,688
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
Thanks Ralph. It's not a Balmar alternator. The case is not assembled in the same manner.

I"m wondering if it can be attached to the DC- post. The possible posts are DC-, DC+, and Tach.
 

colemj

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Jul 13, 2004
448
Dolphin Catamaran Dolphin 460 Mystic, CT
Do you have a picture? Every non-Balmar alternator we've owned still has the case bolts connecting the alternator front, middle, and rear case elements together. I'm at a loss trying to picture how an alternator could be assembled without them. Our temp sensor is mounted on one of these case bolts.

I think the problem with using the DC- post for temp sensing on alternators is it may be removed too far from the heat-generating parts you want to measure. It's possible yours is mounted in such a way that it represents the diode or winding temps, but you would want to make sure. Take temp measurements around your alternator and see if that post is representative.

The only difference between the Balmar alternator and battery temp sensors is the size of the lug hole. The battery sensor is a larger hole that might not fit well on on alternator mount point. If you can make it work, then there is no problem using the battery sensor for the alternator.

Mark
 
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May 7, 2012
1,522
Hunter e33 Maple Bay, BC
The only difference between the Balmar alternator and battery temp sensors is the size of the lug hole.
In addition the cable lengths are much different. The alternator temperature sensor (MC-TS-A) is 54" long whereas the battery temperature sensor (MC-TS-B) is 20' long. But apparently cable length does not affect either sensor's operational characteristics.
Can a "battery temp sensor" be used on the DC- post on the alternator?
Dave, a similar question was asked and answered many years ago. "If the shoe fits, wear it."
Balmar Regulator Temp Sense Wires
 
Jan 11, 2014
12,688
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
In addition the cable lengths are much different. The alternator temperature sensor (MC-TS-A) is 54" long whereas the battery temperature sensor (MC-TS-B) is 20' long. But apparently cable length does not affect either sensor's operational characteristics.

Dave, a similar question was asked and answered many years ago. "If the shoe fits, wear it."
Balmar Regulator Temp Sense Wires
My plan is to attach a battery temp sensor to the DC- post and connect that to the Alternator Temp on the Regulator. I'll connect an alternator temp sensor to the Battery temp input on the regulator. It will just measure the ambient air temp which will be fine because the alternator will be low powered and the battery bank (LFP) temp is monitored by the BMS.

Now if I can only find the #12-24 nut that took up residence in the bilge, I'd be a happy camper. :facepalm:
 
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colemj

.
Jul 13, 2004
448
Dolphin Catamaran Dolphin 460 Mystic, CT
I'll connect an alternator temp sensor to the Battery temp input on the regulator. It will just measure the ambient air temp which will be fine because the alternator will be low powered and the battery bank (LFP) temp is monitored by the BMS.
I don't understand why you are adding a battery temp sensor? Just leave it off for LFP and save the $50 for something else. If you do attach it, the regulator is going to use it, so make sure you set the regulator battery temp compensation to zero. At which point you have just disabled it, or figuratively left the sensor off, but still literally connected.

Mark
 
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Jan 11, 2014
12,688
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
I don't understand why you are adding a battery temp sensor? Just leave it off for LFP and save the $50 for something else. If you do attach it, the regulator is going to use it, so make sure you set the regulator battery temp compensation to zero. At which point you have just disabled it, or figuratively left the sensor off, but still literally connected.

Mark
Because the regulator needs a battery temp and an alternator for the temperature control to work.
 
Apr 5, 2009
3,071
Catalina '88 C30 tr/bs Oak Harbor, WA
If your battery is LFP it absolutely does not need the regulator to be modified by battery temperature and temp compensation will damage the LFP. That is something that only flooded lead acid batteries need.
 

colemj

.
Jul 13, 2004
448
Dolphin Catamaran Dolphin 460 Mystic, CT
Because the regulator needs a battery temp and an alternator for the temperature control to work.
For some reason, I thought you had the Balmar regulator, where that does not matter. Now I assume it is not a Balmar?

Did the regulator come with alt and batt sensors?

Mark
 
Jan 11, 2014
12,688
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
For some reason, I thought you had the Balmar regulator, where that does not matter. Now I assume it is not a Balmar?
It is a Balmar 618 and it does need 2 temp sensors in order for the alternator temp control to work.
 

colemj

.
Jul 13, 2004
448
Dolphin Catamaran Dolphin 460 Mystic, CT
It is a Balmar 618 and it does need 2 temp sensors in order for the alternator temp control to work.
Interesting. We have two 614's and they do not need both sensors for either to work. I was going to get a 618, but may reconsider that now.

Mark
 

colemj

.
Jul 13, 2004
448
Dolphin Catamaran Dolphin 460 Mystic, CT
It is a Balmar 618 and it does need 2 temp sensors in order for the alternator temp control to work.
OK, I just read the manual and don't see anything about both sensors needing to be present for the alternator control to work. They talk about each separately, and each being optional. The battery sensor can be used with LFP to ensure the regulator doesn't charge when too hot or cold, so that is control of the alternator to some extent, but the alt temp sensor still works if the batt sensor is not installed.

If this isn't true, will you please point me to what I've missed? My plan was to directly swap out the 614 for the 618 on our HO alternator for more convenience with programming and monitoring. I don't have batt temp sensors and don't want to add one.

Mark
 
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Jan 11, 2014
12,688
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
OK, I just read the manual and don't see anything about both sensors needing to be present for the alternator control to work. They talk about each separately, and each being optional. The battery sensor can be used with LFP to ensure the regulator doesn't charge when too hot or cold, so that is control of the alternator to some extent, but the alt temp sensor still works if the batt sensor is not installed.

If this isn't true, will you please point me to what I've missed? My plan was to directly swap out the 614 for the 618 on our HO alternator for more convenience with programming and monitoring. I don't have batt temp sensors and don't want to add one.

Mark
It is an undocumented feature. There is a "NoSEN" (or something like that) option that enables temp monitoring and field control. If the temp is too high in either the battery or alternator the field is reduced. In early versions of the 618 this feature worked if either the battery or alt temp sensor was connected, now it needs both sensors connected in order to work.

If only one sensor is installed the field current is sharply reduced to 16% or so. If no sensors are connected the field voltage will be whatever is programmed on the Belt Manager.

I have found the SG-200 does not do a good job of monitoring SOC of the batteries. It is rarely the same as the SOC as measured by the battery's BMS.
 
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colemj

.
Jul 13, 2004
448
Dolphin Catamaran Dolphin 460 Mystic, CT
I have found the SG-200 does not do a good job of monitoring SOC of the batteries. It is rarely the same as the SOC as measured by the battery's BMS.
We have a SG200 and it is completely worthless as a battery monitor. I worked with Balmar a lot to try to get it to work by adjusting parameters, testing beta software - nothing helped. I installed a Victron monitor and that works perfectly. I never got around to deinstalling the SG200, so I guess I can use its bluetooth to monitor the 618 if I get one. Right now, it is just set to display amperage.

Strange about the "nosen" working with either sensor earlier, but now now. I'm surprised without it that the regulator cuts to 16%, as the 614 goes to 50%. In practice, this isn't much of a concern for me, as I run our 275A alternator at 50% when using the engine, and when I run it at 100% as a generator, it has outside air blowing directly on it and never gets above 86C. So the alt temp sensor is more a failsafe, and dropping to 16% is fine because it means something is wrong.

Mark
 

colemj

.
Jul 13, 2004
448
Dolphin Catamaran Dolphin 460 Mystic, CT
OK, a bit of googling and I found it in a different 618 manual. This "Sen" parameter seems new to the 618. If turned on, it will change the alternator output if one of the sensors fails (or for this argument, is missing). If the alt temp sensor fails, it drops the field output to 50%. If the battery sensor is missing, it drops the field output to 12%.

I assume the 618 must handle alternator temperature differently than the 614? The 614 summarily drops the field to 50% if the sensor is over the set limit, and goes full field again when the temp drops below the set limit. It is pretty dumb at this, and usually results in the alternator output yo-yo'ing up and down every 10min or so. Does the 618 handle this with more precision if the "sen" parameter is on, by ramping down until it finds a place where the alt stays below the limit continuously? Balmar is so bad at documenting these behaviors.

The 614 controlling a hot alternator overall gives an average output somewhere between 50-100%, but is a silly way of achieving that. Ramping down to find a continuous output that keeps the temp below setpoint would be a nicer way. Overall, though, I think the average output between the two would be about the same.

I guess the "sen" function is good in letting you know if a sensor has failed regardless. Too bad it can't do this for them individually.

Mark
 
Jan 11, 2014
12,688
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
This "Sen" parameter seems new to the 618.
The first version of the 618 did not have the Sen function or if it did, it worked with the alt sensor alone. I know this because I installed a 618 and used it with just one sensor and LFP batteries. Later versions of the 618 did have the Sen function.
 
Apr 5, 2009
3,071
Catalina '88 C30 tr/bs Oak Harbor, WA
If you are getting a new regulator, why not just get a Zeus and be done with it. everything comes in the box and you have total control of everything. FWIW, it does not cut the field to "X%" when the alternator temperature gets to some Un adjustable temperature. It uses a PI logic to gradually reduce the field as the temp gets up the temperature that you have set to allow the alternator to produce as much power at it is able to without going over the max temp.
 

colemj

.
Jul 13, 2004
448
Dolphin Catamaran Dolphin 460 Mystic, CT
If you are getting a new regulator, why not just get a Zeus and be done with it. everything comes in the box and you have total control of everything. FWIW, it does not cut the field to "X%" when the alternator temperature gets to some Un adjustable temperature. It uses a PI logic to gradually reduce the field as the temp gets up the temperature that you have set to allow the alternator to produce as much power at it is able to without going over the max temp.
Because it costs $600 more than the Balmar 618 (I can buy three, maybe four, 618's for the price of the Zeus), I already have a Balmar 614 on each engine and this would be a simple direct swap out - particularly since there is also a Centerfielder sitting between the two regulators, I have no need at all for any of the functions of the Zeus except for its ability to regulate, I particularly have no need for canbus communication, as I have nothing for it to communicate with, and the Zeus will not fit where my current Balmars are located outside the engine compartment, which would require all new wiring runs - let alone finding a suitable place for it. My alternators don't overheat, and my engines are large enough to drive them at any rpm or simultaneously with propulsion need.

I simply have no need for a Zeus (or Wakespeed), as it is an inappropriate solution for my needs.

Mark
 
Jan 11, 2014
12,688
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
If you are getting a new regulator, why not just get a Zeus and be done with it. everything comes in the box and you have total control of everything. FWIW, it does not cut the field to "X%" when the alternator temperature gets to some Un adjustable temperature. It uses a PI logic to gradually reduce the field as the temp gets up the temperature that you have set to allow the alternator to produce as much power at it is able to without going over the max temp.
I was being brief and overly technical. The regulator reduces the slowly and monitors the temp as you said.

For a very brief time, I did have a Zeus 225 alternator and Zeus Regulator as the combination was not much more than a Balmar XT 170 and 618. However, I needed a J10 pulley and the Zeus alternator cannot use a Balmar J10 pulley, only a J6. To use a J6 we would have to remove the J10s already installed on the water pump and flywheel, that wasn't going to happen given our current circumstances.

This alternator and regulator replacement was the result of having some pretty simple maintenance work done on the boat that did not involve the alternator directly, but did involve working in and around the alternator. When we went into the marina and yard we had a working AT 165 alternator with an original 618 regulator. Two days after we left the yard we had a burned out AT 165 alternator and a 618 in unknown condition. Since we were on our way to the Bahamas and far from home, effecting a quick and affordable repair was essential. Unfortunately, the replacement was neither quick nor affordable. The trials and tribulations of the replacement is a long story. In the end, the time window for us was closing and the Bahamas is no longer an option. We're on our way home to Lake Ontario.

Because it costs $600 more than the Balmar 618 (I can buy three, maybe four, 618's for the price of the Zeus)
Not sure where you are shopping. I paid about $1400 for a Zeus alternator and a Zeus regulator. The 618 with one temp sensor was around $350 at the West Marine pro price and a replacement AT 170 about $1200 delivered from Defender. For the money, the Zeus is a much better deal, better alternator better regulator. It's a no brainer, until the transient docking fees and converting the J10 pulleys to J6s are included. If this had happened closer to home, I would have gone with the Arco products.