Checked the archives, found some chat about regulators but didnt notice an answer to the following (possibly dumb--my apolgies in advance) question. I installed a Link 10 on my Catalina 350 and am able to monitor charging when the engine is running. The stock 55 amp alternator is pretty puny and the regulator seems to kick in even when the battery is far from full thus making the alternator even less effective. Before I jump off the high bridge and get a better alternator, would it make a difference if I got a "smart" regulator so I could better manage the charging with the stock alternator? Has anyone tried this approach? (BTW, where the heck is the regulator on a 350 anyway? I looked all over and couldnt find the darn thing) We are heading to the Keys in a few weeks (sorry snowbirds, didnt mean to rub it in!) and I am getting increasingly nervous about battery issues and how much I will need to run the motor (esp in isolated places like the Dry Tortugas) Thanks Bill Welsch s/v "Escapade" (Hull 142, C 350)
- Status
C350 Alternators & Regulators
Bill You have a lot of research to do, so here's how I can best help you out in a short response. 1. I assume you mean that the regulator is NOT putting out amps even when the batteries need a charge. Right? That's because you have an internal regulator, which is why you can't find it, it's strapped onto the back of the alternator itself. It is NOT external. And that's why you are not getting much out of it, because it is an automotive regulator. 2. You should, if you haven't yet, buy Nigel Calder's Boatowner's Manual. Best $50 you or the rest of the new C350 group can do. 3. If you're worried about being on the hook on your trip, you need to do an energy budget, and then find out if you have enough house bank capacity. If you have a stock C350, you most likely do not (maybe two batteries, maybe three with one as a starting battery). The more electricity you use, the more house bank capacity you need to reduce engine running time. Your stock alternator won't do it for you on the trip I understand you are contmplating without long engine runnign time {see item 1 above}. (References are www.jackrabbitmarine.com, amplepower.com, and th West Marine Advisors - www.westmarineproducts.com) They cover a lot of this basic stuff on their websites. Do google searches on batteries, alternators, regulators, there's SOOO much information out there. 4. I've linked you to a long writeup in our C34 message board that may help get you started to answer your questions. It includes a link to the C36 'site about the very issue you are talking about. 5. Try doing a Forum Archive Search on "Nigel Calder" or "calder." I'll bet you get a lot of hits and explanations of issues that you are dealing with. I wish you the best of luck on your trip, and hope you have the time to get your system in the condition that is appropriate for the use intended. You have three basic choices: The easiest and shortest answer, in a limited time, would be to drastically increase your house bank capacity. Or, you could get your stock alternator adjusted (rewired) to work with an external regulator (see the link, it has a link to another site by the C36 folks) and buy the external regulator Or you could buy a new alternator and external regulator (packaged by Balmmar, Ample, JackRabbit, etc.). Don't exceed the recommended alternator size for the size of your engine, to avoid sideloading and overloading the internal engine bearings. That'll be a bit o'work to do in a few weeks, but could be done in a day or two by a knowledgeable person once the parts and wires, etc. are assembled. Good luck, have a great trip and keep reading. You have a great boat and we met Mark Kohler and his wife here on SF Bay when they'd just purchased their new boat. All the best, Stu PS - sorry it got so long.
Bill You have a lot of research to do, so here's how I can best help you out in a short response. 1. I assume you mean that the regulator is NOT putting out amps even when the batteries need a charge. Right? That's because you have an internal regulator, which is why you can't find it, it's strapped onto the back of the alternator itself. It is NOT external. And that's why you are not getting much out of it, because it is an automotive regulator. 2. You should, if you haven't yet, buy Nigel Calder's Boatowner's Manual. Best $50 you or the rest of the new C350 group can do. 3. If you're worried about being on the hook on your trip, you need to do an energy budget, and then find out if you have enough house bank capacity. If you have a stock C350, you most likely do not (maybe two batteries, maybe three with one as a starting battery). The more electricity you use, the more house bank capacity you need to reduce engine running time. Your stock alternator won't do it for you on the trip I understand you are contmplating without long engine runnign time {see item 1 above}. (References are www.jackrabbitmarine.com, amplepower.com, and th West Marine Advisors - www.westmarineproducts.com) They cover a lot of this basic stuff on their websites. Do google searches on batteries, alternators, regulators, there's SOOO much information out there. 4. I've linked you to a long writeup in our C34 message board that may help get you started to answer your questions. It includes a link to the C36 'site about the very issue you are talking about. 5. Try doing a Forum Archive Search on "Nigel Calder" or "calder." I'll bet you get a lot of hits and explanations of issues that you are dealing with. I wish you the best of luck on your trip, and hope you have the time to get your system in the condition that is appropriate for the use intended. You have three basic choices: The easiest and shortest answer, in a limited time, would be to drastically increase your house bank capacity. Or, you could get your stock alternator adjusted (rewired) to work with an external regulator (see the link, it has a link to another site by the C36 folks) and buy the external regulator Or you could buy a new alternator and external regulator (packaged by Balmmar, Ample, JackRabbit, etc.). Don't exceed the recommended alternator size for the size of your engine, to avoid sideloading and overloading the internal engine bearings. That'll be a bit o'work to do in a few weeks, but could be done in a day or two by a knowledgeable person once the parts and wires, etc. are assembled. Good luck, have a great trip and keep reading. You have a great boat and we met Mark Kohler and his wife here on SF Bay when they'd just purchased their new boat. All the best, Stu PS - sorry it got so long.
A new regulator can be done
It would take a little work, but you could replace the internal regulator on the stock alternator with a nice 3-stage external regulator. Most regulators come with instructions that tell you how to bypass the built-in regulator. What you have to determine first, however, is does the alternator put out enough amps to replace the load you use quick enough? Your stock alternator puts out 50 amps at best and more likely closer to 30 due to tempurature and "friction". A new regulator will not change that and once your batteries get above 80% full, the output goes down to more efficiently "top them off". So, you want an alternator that will replace most of the amps you use in the first hour (up to 80% full). Usually, most people have a couple of D4 or D8 batteries (200 to 400 AHs) and need an alternator that can put out 90 - 150 Amps per hour. Your basic Motorola just can't do that. I would get the book Stu recommends and figure out your daily amp useage. Once you have that number, it becomes just a math problem to figure out what alternator and battery capacity you need. Good luck, Les Murray s/v Ceilidh '86 C-36 #560
It would take a little work, but you could replace the internal regulator on the stock alternator with a nice 3-stage external regulator. Most regulators come with instructions that tell you how to bypass the built-in regulator. What you have to determine first, however, is does the alternator put out enough amps to replace the load you use quick enough? Your stock alternator puts out 50 amps at best and more likely closer to 30 due to tempurature and "friction". A new regulator will not change that and once your batteries get above 80% full, the output goes down to more efficiently "top them off". So, you want an alternator that will replace most of the amps you use in the first hour (up to 80% full). Usually, most people have a couple of D4 or D8 batteries (200 to 400 AHs) and need an alternator that can put out 90 - 150 Amps per hour. Your basic Motorola just can't do that. I would get the book Stu recommends and figure out your daily amp useage. Once you have that number, it becomes just a math problem to figure out what alternator and battery capacity you need. Good luck, Les Murray s/v Ceilidh '86 C-36 #560
How do you really know they are far from full
Sometimes it takes a setting the total A/H correctly (remember the stock Exide Nautilus 4d batteries are only "now" speced at 160 A/H - which I think is conservative, but no where near where people think they are ~200 A/H -- That can make a difference here are the specs http://www.exide.com/pdf/exide_specs_april_2003.pdf ). Also it might take a few batteries charge/ discharge cycles before your Link 10 "finds" the true max A/H's your bank holks. Also as noted previously when a battery gets to 85% of capacity it gets into a mode where it slowly ramps down to only charging at a few amps. Thats the nature of the beast. From this website http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm#Battery%20Charging "Bulk Charge - The first stage of 3-stage battery charging. Current is sent to batteries at the maximum safe rate they will accept until voltage rises to near (80-90%) full charge level. Voltages at this stage typically range from 10.5 volts to 15 volts. There is no "correct" voltage for bulk charging, but there may be limits on the maximum current that the battery and/or wiring can take." (My Note: Bulk charge is where you will see the most current returning back into your batteries) "Absorption Charge: The 2nd stage of 3-stage battery charging. Voltage remains constant and current gradually tapers off as internal resistance increases during charging. This starts at ~80% of total charge." (My Note: Absorption Charge: No matter HOW big your alternator is, once the batteries get above 80-90% the current back into batteries will be drastical reduced. Thats why some people just get a bigger battery bank and just run down the batteries to 40-50% and just do the quicker Bulk charge up to 85%. Some people don't even try to get that last 15% charge on the hook because that means a lot of engine run time for little current output - In other words to have the most efficient use of engine run time vs running down the battery too much you get about to around 40% of your total bank. This equals about 120 A/H out of your 320 A/H bank) So (quick calculation) if you use about 120 A/H every 2 days (which in my opinion is low for most people , I'd say it would be closer to 80-90 A/H) then you would have to run the engine a minimum of 3 hours every 2 days (Bulk charge out of Mando 51 Amp alternator is ~40amps). I have a bank of 2 4 1/2 year old Exide 4-D's just as you do and last summer I used them 3 days before the voltage got too low (~11.3 volts). I consumed about 260 A/H's. I motored out of that harbor & it did take a while of charging before I brought them back up. But amazingly they recovered fine. Sorry, I can't tell you exactly hour many hours of charging to bring it to what levels. So, not saying that adding a smart regulator wouldn't help, it probably would. But its not really the alternators fault. In fact when the batteries are really low (under 50%) I see a good 40-50 amps out of the stock 51Amp Mando Alternator, but as you can see a few days on the hook and it will still take a while to recharge the batteries at that rate. also - sorry if this is too long - but there were points I wanted to make.
Sometimes it takes a setting the total A/H correctly (remember the stock Exide Nautilus 4d batteries are only "now" speced at 160 A/H - which I think is conservative, but no where near where people think they are ~200 A/H -- That can make a difference here are the specs http://www.exide.com/pdf/exide_specs_april_2003.pdf ). Also it might take a few batteries charge/ discharge cycles before your Link 10 "finds" the true max A/H's your bank holks. Also as noted previously when a battery gets to 85% of capacity it gets into a mode where it slowly ramps down to only charging at a few amps. Thats the nature of the beast. From this website http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm#Battery%20Charging "Bulk Charge - The first stage of 3-stage battery charging. Current is sent to batteries at the maximum safe rate they will accept until voltage rises to near (80-90%) full charge level. Voltages at this stage typically range from 10.5 volts to 15 volts. There is no "correct" voltage for bulk charging, but there may be limits on the maximum current that the battery and/or wiring can take." (My Note: Bulk charge is where you will see the most current returning back into your batteries) "Absorption Charge: The 2nd stage of 3-stage battery charging. Voltage remains constant and current gradually tapers off as internal resistance increases during charging. This starts at ~80% of total charge." (My Note: Absorption Charge: No matter HOW big your alternator is, once the batteries get above 80-90% the current back into batteries will be drastical reduced. Thats why some people just get a bigger battery bank and just run down the batteries to 40-50% and just do the quicker Bulk charge up to 85%. Some people don't even try to get that last 15% charge on the hook because that means a lot of engine run time for little current output - In other words to have the most efficient use of engine run time vs running down the battery too much you get about to around 40% of your total bank. This equals about 120 A/H out of your 320 A/H bank) So (quick calculation) if you use about 120 A/H every 2 days (which in my opinion is low for most people , I'd say it would be closer to 80-90 A/H) then you would have to run the engine a minimum of 3 hours every 2 days (Bulk charge out of Mando 51 Amp alternator is ~40amps). I have a bank of 2 4 1/2 year old Exide 4-D's just as you do and last summer I used them 3 days before the voltage got too low (~11.3 volts). I consumed about 260 A/H's. I motored out of that harbor & it did take a while of charging before I brought them back up. But amazingly they recovered fine. Sorry, I can't tell you exactly hour many hours of charging to bring it to what levels. So, not saying that adding a smart regulator wouldn't help, it probably would. But its not really the alternators fault. In fact when the batteries are really low (under 50%) I see a good 40-50 amps out of the stock 51Amp Mando Alternator, but as you can see a few days on the hook and it will still take a while to recharge the batteries at that rate. also - sorry if this is too long - but there were points I wanted to make.
Excide Specs addendum.
I can't find the reference now and haven't the time to coninue serching, but will post it when I find it. Excide apparently makes two versions of the Nautilus 4D according to someone who researched the issue. The 'stock' version is spec'ed on their site and can be purchased off the shelf from a retailer. The other is sold diectly to companies such as Catalina and is (or was in 2001) the OEM unit insalled by the factory. The difference is that the OEM version has a slightly differnt model number, is actually 200AH and normaly may only be obtained special order (there are reports of finding them on the shelf if you get lucky and know the correct model number). Something to do with combining production lines resulting from a merger/acquision if memory serves. I'll try again to find the posting tonight as it has the model number. If you're in a hurry, he said he got the info from talking to an Excide Tech rep on the phone.
I can't find the reference now and haven't the time to coninue serching, but will post it when I find it. Excide apparently makes two versions of the Nautilus 4D according to someone who researched the issue. The 'stock' version is spec'ed on their site and can be purchased off the shelf from a retailer. The other is sold diectly to companies such as Catalina and is (or was in 2001) the OEM unit insalled by the factory. The difference is that the OEM version has a slightly differnt model number, is actually 200AH and normaly may only be obtained special order (there are reports of finding them on the shelf if you get lucky and know the correct model number). Something to do with combining production lines resulting from a merger/acquision if memory serves. I'll try again to find the posting tonight as it has the model number. If you're in a hurry, he said he got the info from talking to an Excide Tech rep on the phone.
Chris very interesting. I'd love to find out
I have tried researching this in the past, but all I have found was a "discussion" about a different 4-D battery that goes into our boats, but I saw no corroborating data, only heresay. If that is in fact true, I would think that our batteries would have a different model number "stamped" into the side of the battery, as is, my battery has the markings of "NG-4D" which IS considered their "Nautilus Gold Deep Cycle" Marine battery (presently rated @ 160A/H's). Exides DOES make another Deep Cycle Marine 4D battery that is called their "Stowaway Part number "ST4DDC250", but the specs are the same! (I don't know about the price though, nor anything like projected # of Deep Cycles) But I bet it has more to do with marketing and that really the batteries are the same. http://www.exide.com/pdf/exide_specs_april_2003.pdf I **DO** recall finding some older data sheets from Exide that said the NG-4D Exide Nautilus Golds were rated at 200 A/H's , but that could be from a number of reasons. 1)They were wildly optimistic about the A/H's and conservatively adjusted the specs down 2)This spec sheet I linked above is wrong for the NG-4D 3) The NG-4D really is just like their other marine 4D and its all marketing. 4) They really do, or did, make a 200 A/H battery but they don't advertise this (I find this HARD to believe - NONE of these battery companies only show their worse speced items) BTW -- like I said I have used the "stock" 4D's that have come with the boat and I am satisfied. They might not be Like a Rolls 4D's or Lifeline AGM's. But they are actually giving me pretty good service for their price even after 4 years . Plus, from my observations I am getting at least 160 A/H's out of my batteries. Remember A/H rating is a the A/H total power it will put out at a constant 20 Amp rate until the battery voltage gets down to 10.5 Volts. That is much further down than most people would ever consider running a battery. But I have gotten close once or twice.
I have tried researching this in the past, but all I have found was a "discussion" about a different 4-D battery that goes into our boats, but I saw no corroborating data, only heresay. If that is in fact true, I would think that our batteries would have a different model number "stamped" into the side of the battery, as is, my battery has the markings of "NG-4D" which IS considered their "Nautilus Gold Deep Cycle" Marine battery (presently rated @ 160A/H's). Exides DOES make another Deep Cycle Marine 4D battery that is called their "Stowaway Part number "ST4DDC250", but the specs are the same! (I don't know about the price though, nor anything like projected # of Deep Cycles) But I bet it has more to do with marketing and that really the batteries are the same. http://www.exide.com/pdf/exide_specs_april_2003.pdf I **DO** recall finding some older data sheets from Exide that said the NG-4D Exide Nautilus Golds were rated at 200 A/H's , but that could be from a number of reasons. 1)They were wildly optimistic about the A/H's and conservatively adjusted the specs down 2)This spec sheet I linked above is wrong for the NG-4D 3) The NG-4D really is just like their other marine 4D and its all marketing. 4) They really do, or did, make a 200 A/H battery but they don't advertise this (I find this HARD to believe - NONE of these battery companies only show their worse speced items) BTW -- like I said I have used the "stock" 4D's that have come with the boat and I am satisfied. They might not be Like a Rolls 4D's or Lifeline AGM's. But they are actually giving me pretty good service for their price even after 4 years . Plus, from my observations I am getting at least 160 A/H's out of my batteries. Remember A/H rating is a the A/H total power it will put out at a constant 20 Amp rate until the battery voltage gets down to 10.5 Volts. That is much further down than most people would ever consider running a battery. But I have gotten close once or twice.
4 D Batteries
I have enough trouble lifting a single golf cart battery. How'd you guys deal with 4Ds and 8Ds? Would it not be easier to get rid of the bigger ones with more smaller ones? Stu
I have enough trouble lifting a single golf cart battery. How'd you guys deal with 4Ds and 8Ds? Would it not be easier to get rid of the bigger ones with more smaller ones? Stu
Come on Stu - Eat your Wheaties 
Well I haven't had to replace mine yet, so that really helps -- no reason to move them. But I have taken them out of a battery box - Plus I helped change out someones in their C42 - its do-able with the lifting straps. But if you are getting good batteries and taking care of them, then this "exercise" should only be once every 5-6 years or so. But I do agree about the Golf Cart batteries....in some ways I wish Catalina Designed them in from the start. But at this point I don't need to go through the hassle of making the modifications to get them in there.
Well I haven't had to replace mine yet, so that really helps -- no reason to move them. But I have taken them out of a battery box - Plus I helped change out someones in their C42 - its do-able with the lifting straps. But if you are getting good batteries and taking care of them, then this "exercise" should only be once every 5-6 years or so. But I do agree about the Golf Cart batteries....in some ways I wish Catalina Designed them in from the start. But at this point I don't need to go through the hassle of making the modifications to get them in there.
Here 'tis (can't spell)
That is why I couldn't find it. Jeff Hare wrote the posting, Ed Heyman found it for us. I note that my recollection was off a bit in that amp hours are not discussed directly. > The original Catalina OEM Batteries: NG4D Commercial: 1400 mca, 400 reserve minutes > > The only Exide batteries you're likely to find off the shelf are "Nautilus Gold" batteries. > NG4D : 850mca, 250 reserve minutes. In fact, this is more or less, the standard for > retail batteries. > > After contacting Exide (Mass. Distributor) and explaining the mixup, they contacted > Exide engineering because their info doesn't list the 4D as a 1400/400 battery. > > The Scoop: > ---------------- > Exide bought some other battery company (name escapes me) and consolidated > their 4D line. While they are still manufacturing both, they may now label them both with the same 850/250 label. > > How can you tell which is which? The true 850/250 rated battery is engraved with > a series of letters/numbers on the TOP of the battery and will have a "250" in it. > The 1400/400 rated battery will be engraved on the SIDE and will have a "400" in it. > > If you want the high output Exide batteries that Exide OEMs for it's boats, you'll have > to contact Catalina and arrange for Exide to drop these locally for you.
That is why I couldn't find it. Jeff Hare wrote the posting, Ed Heyman found it for us. I note that my recollection was off a bit in that amp hours are not discussed directly. > The original Catalina OEM Batteries: NG4D Commercial: 1400 mca, 400 reserve minutes > > The only Exide batteries you're likely to find off the shelf are "Nautilus Gold" batteries. > NG4D : 850mca, 250 reserve minutes. In fact, this is more or less, the standard for > retail batteries. > > After contacting Exide (Mass. Distributor) and explaining the mixup, they contacted > Exide engineering because their info doesn't list the 4D as a 1400/400 battery. > > The Scoop: > ---------------- > Exide bought some other battery company (name escapes me) and consolidated > their 4D line. While they are still manufacturing both, they may now label them both with the same 850/250 label. > > How can you tell which is which? The true 850/250 rated battery is engraved with > a series of letters/numbers on the TOP of the battery and will have a "250" in it. > The 1400/400 rated battery will be engraved on the SIDE and will have a "400" in it. > > If you want the high output Exide batteries that Exide OEMs for it's boats, you'll have > to contact Catalina and arrange for Exide to drop these locally for you.
Chris, great info !!
I'm going to have to take a look at my batteries right away! 400 Reserve Amps is a LOT more battery than a 250 Reserve Amp battery ! Not that you can make an exact A/H calculation out of Reserve Amps you CAN make a fairly good correlation between the two. One almost always relates directly to another. http://www.1st-optima-batteries.com/amp_hours.asp (ps -- I mispoke before on the definition of Amp Hours -- its how much current over a period of 20 Hours) Reserve Amps is the measurement of minutes run @ 25 Amps until the voltage runs down. So 250/60minutes x 25 Amps = 104 A/H's and 400/60minutes x 25 Amps = 166 A/H's That is a HUGE difference, so if you correlate the 104 A/H at 25 Amp discharge rate to the 160 A/H at the 20 Amp discharge rate then the 166 A/H at 25 Amps of the Commercial Battery should be at least 200 A/H's at the 20 Amp rate. It all depends on the batteries Peukert value. http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm#Amp-Hour%20Capacity This explains some things . I know you can't make direct calculations but this is a good rough estimate. Maybe we DO have decent batteries on the Catalina's. It explains how I was easily able to go 3 days without having to recharge my batteries. ps..I did find some "commercial" Heavy-duty 4-D batteries from Exide that lists these as 320 Reserve Minutes http://www.exide.com/products/heavy_truck/exide_heavyduty_commercial_12v_specs.html The only ones I could find @ 400 Reserve minutes are some 8-D's
I'm going to have to take a look at my batteries right away! 400 Reserve Amps is a LOT more battery than a 250 Reserve Amp battery ! Not that you can make an exact A/H calculation out of Reserve Amps you CAN make a fairly good correlation between the two. One almost always relates directly to another. http://www.1st-optima-batteries.com/amp_hours.asp (ps -- I mispoke before on the definition of Amp Hours -- its how much current over a period of 20 Hours) Reserve Amps is the measurement of minutes run @ 25 Amps until the voltage runs down. So 250/60minutes x 25 Amps = 104 A/H's and 400/60minutes x 25 Amps = 166 A/H's That is a HUGE difference, so if you correlate the 104 A/H at 25 Amp discharge rate to the 160 A/H at the 20 Amp discharge rate then the 166 A/H at 25 Amps of the Commercial Battery should be at least 200 A/H's at the 20 Amp rate. It all depends on the batteries Peukert value. http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm#Amp-Hour%20Capacity This explains some things . I know you can't make direct calculations but this is a good rough estimate. Maybe we DO have decent batteries on the Catalina's. It explains how I was easily able to go 3 days without having to recharge my batteries. ps..I did find some "commercial" Heavy-duty 4-D batteries from Exide that lists these as 320 Reserve Minutes http://www.exide.com/products/heavy_truck/exide_heavyduty_commercial_12v_specs.html The only ones I could find @ 400 Reserve minutes are some 8-D's
I just went & looked at my Catalina Supplied 4D's
They ARE listed as 1400 MCA and 400 reserve minutes....wow. Learn something new everday. The name on the batteries are also Exide Nautilus Gold "Commercial" batteries. So that does corroborate what you said in your post. That explains my fairly decent experience so far, I would think that the "regular" nautilus Gold batteries would not have been giving me as much A/H's as I've been seeing.
They ARE listed as 1400 MCA and 400 reserve minutes....wow. Learn something new everday. The name on the batteries are also Exide Nautilus Gold "Commercial" batteries. So that does corroborate what you said in your post. That explains my fairly decent experience so far, I would think that the "regular" nautilus Gold batteries would not have been giving me as much A/H's as I've been seeing.
Some follow-up info.
My power went off this morning, so I couldn't promptly pass on a follow up post by Jeff Hare. It is part fact, part opinion, but seems as if it might be useful for those making decisions. I am not certain that his conclusions follow and my experience with the batteries leads me to the opposite opinion: Hi, Here's some possibly new/clarifying info on the OEM vs. Off-the-shelf Exide batteries. Exide salesmen and distributors really aren't aware of the batteries Catalina OEMs. All they seem to know about is the NG4D they sell which is a "true" deep cycle battery. It seems each time I mention it to them, the Exide guys seem to insist that they've never produced the battery most of us have in our boat... They say they've never made a 1400 mca marine deep cycle battery. In fairness, it appears that our batteries may be a bit more of a dual purpose battery deep cycle and starting battery given the amount of Marine Cranking Amps (mca) and the reserve minutes. If this is actually true, then it is even more important to avoid deep discharges. Exide's aren't all that great, and I replaced my failing ones with the OEM version only because I wanted a matched pair, and could get them for $175 each from the Mass. distributor (and Catalina paid for one of them). -Jeff
My power went off this morning, so I couldn't promptly pass on a follow up post by Jeff Hare. It is part fact, part opinion, but seems as if it might be useful for those making decisions. I am not certain that his conclusions follow and my experience with the batteries leads me to the opposite opinion: Hi, Here's some possibly new/clarifying info on the OEM vs. Off-the-shelf Exide batteries. Exide salesmen and distributors really aren't aware of the batteries Catalina OEMs. All they seem to know about is the NG4D they sell which is a "true" deep cycle battery. It seems each time I mention it to them, the Exide guys seem to insist that they've never produced the battery most of us have in our boat... They say they've never made a 1400 mca marine deep cycle battery. In fairness, it appears that our batteries may be a bit more of a dual purpose battery deep cycle and starting battery given the amount of Marine Cranking Amps (mca) and the reserve minutes. If this is actually true, then it is even more important to avoid deep discharges. Exide's aren't all that great, and I replaced my failing ones with the OEM version only because I wanted a matched pair, and could get them for $175 each from the Mass. distributor (and Catalina paid for one of them). -Jeff
Why not high output Auto Alt with Reg?
Hello! WHy not use a 105 Amp alternator with internal regulator instead of the Balmars etc - I just priced a heavy duty auto alt 105 amp with regulator and oversized fan for $109 ?
Hello! WHy not use a 105 Amp alternator with internal regulator instead of the Balmars etc - I just priced a heavy duty auto alt 105 amp with regulator and oversized fan for $109 ?
Auto Alternators Are not as Useful
The problem with auto alternators is two-fold: First, they are intended to be used in (relatively) high-revving gas engines and as such don't generate a meaningful amount of current at the slower revolutions used in marine applications. Second, a marine battery bank can only be charged just so quickly; apply too much current and you will cause the battery to "out-gas" hydrogen. My understanding is that the size (in terms of amps) of an alternator must be "fitted" to the size (in amp/hours) of the battery bank and that the alternator's max output should be approximately 25% of the size of the battery bank being charged. I have recently made the plunge and purchased a Balmar 85 amp 71-80 alternator to replace my stock 51 amp alternator and the Max-Charge Voltage Regulator and I don't regret it. I figure it's better to do the job right by using the components that will fully optimize the existing electrical system. Sometimes "half-measures" are not the best option.
The problem with auto alternators is two-fold: First, they are intended to be used in (relatively) high-revving gas engines and as such don't generate a meaningful amount of current at the slower revolutions used in marine applications. Second, a marine battery bank can only be charged just so quickly; apply too much current and you will cause the battery to "out-gas" hydrogen. My understanding is that the size (in terms of amps) of an alternator must be "fitted" to the size (in amp/hours) of the battery bank and that the alternator's max output should be approximately 25% of the size of the battery bank being charged. I have recently made the plunge and purchased a Balmar 85 amp 71-80 alternator to replace my stock 51 amp alternator and the Max-Charge Voltage Regulator and I don't regret it. I figure it's better to do the job right by using the components that will fully optimize the existing electrical system. Sometimes "half-measures" are not the best option.
Internal regulation IS the Problem
Pete You could have a 5,000,000 amp alternator, but with internal regulation you'd never see anything at your battery bank, which is what you are trying to charge in the first place. Calder explains the difference between boat charging requirements compared to autos. So does the West Marine Advisor. Also, try this: "All internally regulated automotive type alternators and internally regulated marine alternators have only a “float†capability. When applied to a discharged deep-cycle battery, the regulator cuts back on the charging current within a few minutes of starting the engine as it is designed to maintain the battery in an automobile, not to periodically recharge it as rapidly as possible." It's not only the size of the alternator, but the fact that internal regulation is made for cars, which don't require the maximum controlled charge for deeply discharged batteries such as found on house banks on boats. Internal regulation is just fine for your starting battery, but won't get enough charge in fast enough (with a reasonable period of time) for your house bank. Internal regulation is only at 13.8 volts. It is NOT the ideal charge regimen for batteries. Read the Ample Power Primer (www.amplepower.com) and the West Marine Advisor for How to Charge Batteries. Also, before you consider a mega sized alternator, please check the side load on your engine main and pump bearings: a bigger alternator load could whack your bearings big time. For Universal M25 engine, only a 90 to 100 amp alternator is recommended. 75 with good external regulation would be just fine. Stu Stu
Pete You could have a 5,000,000 amp alternator, but with internal regulation you'd never see anything at your battery bank, which is what you are trying to charge in the first place. Calder explains the difference between boat charging requirements compared to autos. So does the West Marine Advisor. Also, try this: "All internally regulated automotive type alternators and internally regulated marine alternators have only a “float†capability. When applied to a discharged deep-cycle battery, the regulator cuts back on the charging current within a few minutes of starting the engine as it is designed to maintain the battery in an automobile, not to periodically recharge it as rapidly as possible." It's not only the size of the alternator, but the fact that internal regulation is made for cars, which don't require the maximum controlled charge for deeply discharged batteries such as found on house banks on boats. Internal regulation is just fine for your starting battery, but won't get enough charge in fast enough (with a reasonable period of time) for your house bank. Internal regulation is only at 13.8 volts. It is NOT the ideal charge regimen for batteries. Read the Ample Power Primer (www.amplepower.com) and the West Marine Advisor for How to Charge Batteries. Also, before you consider a mega sized alternator, please check the side load on your engine main and pump bearings: a bigger alternator load could whack your bearings big time. For Universal M25 engine, only a 90 to 100 amp alternator is recommended. 75 with good external regulation would be just fine. Stu Stu
Milton
Greetings All, I would like to weigh in on a few things. First of all, buy the best batteries you can afford. This will pay large dividends in the long run, you will have to replace your batteries less frequetly, they will be more robust and they will perfrom much better than their cheaper counterparts in all areas. Also buy the best properly rated for your engine alternator and external regulator you can afford. This being said be prepared to upgrade the wiring around your charging system to acommodate the extra current that will be produced by the alternator and delivered to the batteries. Without that all is for naught and you will be creating a fire hazard onboard. Second. Never ever use an automotive alternator starter or other critical parts on a boat unless you like very loud noises i.e. explosions and extreme heat. All marine rated devices are produced and protected to not ignite any flamable substances in or around them. For instance if you have a tiny leak in the propane system on your boat and do not run the bilge blower, assuming that you have one on your diesel boat, I Do, the automotive alternator can spark at the brushes and slip rings and cause an explosion. The same holds true for an automotive starter, these items are ment to be used in open spaces with great amounts of air around them not a boat, that is why we pay more for those marine rated items, that and it has boat in front of the name of the item. Third and just my opinion, Nigel Calder is at best a tinkerer who can write well but does not have the wealth of knowledge that every one thinks he does. He has written about navigation and gets lost in the Gulf or wrecks his friends boats on rocks in Mass. and then can not fix the electrical systems on his own boat yet has written volumes on the subject and then he writes about these miss adventures in a national publication. Expert?
Greetings All, I would like to weigh in on a few things. First of all, buy the best batteries you can afford. This will pay large dividends in the long run, you will have to replace your batteries less frequetly, they will be more robust and they will perfrom much better than their cheaper counterparts in all areas. Also buy the best properly rated for your engine alternator and external regulator you can afford. This being said be prepared to upgrade the wiring around your charging system to acommodate the extra current that will be produced by the alternator and delivered to the batteries. Without that all is for naught and you will be creating a fire hazard onboard. Second. Never ever use an automotive alternator starter or other critical parts on a boat unless you like very loud noises i.e. explosions and extreme heat. All marine rated devices are produced and protected to not ignite any flamable substances in or around them. For instance if you have a tiny leak in the propane system on your boat and do not run the bilge blower, assuming that you have one on your diesel boat, I Do, the automotive alternator can spark at the brushes and slip rings and cause an explosion. The same holds true for an automotive starter, these items are ment to be used in open spaces with great amounts of air around them not a boat, that is why we pay more for those marine rated items, that and it has boat in front of the name of the item. Third and just my opinion, Nigel Calder is at best a tinkerer who can write well but does not have the wealth of knowledge that every one thinks he does. He has written about navigation and gets lost in the Gulf or wrecks his friends boats on rocks in Mass. and then can not fix the electrical systems on his own boat yet has written volumes on the subject and then he writes about these miss adventures in a national publication. Expert?
Yeah, Calder does do some funny things, but...
what he has written is useful, all in one place (his book), and has been corroborated by many other sources, so it's pretty useful stuff, even if he can't find his way back home. I bought the book for the technical stuff, and haven't bought his navigation tome! Stu
what he has written is useful, all in one place (his book), and has been corroborated by many other sources, so it's pretty useful stuff, even if he can't find his way back home. I bought the book for the technical stuff, and haven't bought his navigation tome!
Stutried the auto regulator
I tried a 120 amp truck alternator. I installed the screen to make it comply to marine anti-spark standards. It lasted 2 or 3 years and burned out. The windings that are in the 75 amp Balmar that I have been using for at least 5 years are at least twice as thick. There is a lot more cooling air available in an auto than in our boats, the windings are what failed. I did fry the front bearing in the Balmar due to overheating caused by belt slippage. A new alternator mounting bracket has solved that problem
I tried a 120 amp truck alternator. I installed the screen to make it comply to marine anti-spark standards. It lasted 2 or 3 years and burned out. The windings that are in the 75 amp Balmar that I have been using for at least 5 years are at least twice as thick. There is a lot more cooling air available in an auto than in our boats, the windings are what failed. I did fry the front bearing in the Balmar due to overheating caused by belt slippage. A new alternator mounting bracket has solved that problem
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