Gordon and fellow sailors, We have a 1998 Hunter 376. With retirement to look forward to in 5 to 6 years, we plan to cruise the islands. I do not want to give up the storage space, bear the added weight, maintenance and expense of an onboard generator. A fellor HOW'er sent me info on an inverter based power center. I looked up a Baldor high ouput generator, and Heart Interface 2500. This would handle the 2000 watts of the AC Unit plus 500 watts to spare and would run our Yanmar 35 H.P. at 1500 -2000 RPM. The Heart Interface also handles a surge capacity of 5000 watts for starting torque. My cost estimate is around $3,500.00 doing the installation myself. This would be used for occasional use, in the event that sleeping conditions were diminished due to heat and humidity, thereby allowing us to run the AC using the Yanmar for the power source. Is this an acceptable plan? Is there any tips or traps that we need to know? Thank you, Mike D Medai, PA s.v Serenity H376
- Status
- Not open for further replies.
J
Joe
G
Gary Jensen
alternate electrical set up
My 380 catalina has three batteries. One is set aside as an emergency start battery. The other two are 4 d batteries with 400 amp hours. I have a 2000 Heart inverter/charger and an upgraded high output alternator. Although I don't have the load that you have (air conditioner), I think that you may want to consider that route. It charges fast, has a lot of amp hours, and can handle a big load. You probably would like to increase the battery capacity with the 2500 inverter!!! good luck
My 380 catalina has three batteries. One is set aside as an emergency start battery. The other two are 4 d batteries with 400 amp hours. I have a 2000 Heart inverter/charger and an upgraded high output alternator. Although I don't have the load that you have (air conditioner), I think that you may want to consider that route. It charges fast, has a lot of amp hours, and can handle a big load. You probably would like to increase the battery capacity with the 2500 inverter!!! good luck
J
Jeff Dombach
Downside
IMHO the downside to doing that is the loss of efficiency(sp?). Consider, if you use a generator, it will hopefully be running at it's optimum load and creating 110 VAC. If you use your Yanmar, it will be running lightly loaded (diesels prefer heavier usage), creating 12 VDC. That 12 volts will then be converted with the invertor to 110 VAC. The invertor will probaly use 2500 Watts to make 2000 watts (which will add to your heat problem). That said, will it work? Yes. However, if you are going to go this route I would suggest adding several things: Additional battery capacity, a larger alternator and solar panels/wind generator. Best of luck.
IMHO the downside to doing that is the loss of efficiency(sp?). Consider, if you use a generator, it will hopefully be running at it's optimum load and creating 110 VAC. If you use your Yanmar, it will be running lightly loaded (diesels prefer heavier usage), creating 12 VDC. That 12 volts will then be converted with the invertor to 110 VAC. The invertor will probaly use 2500 Watts to make 2000 watts (which will add to your heat problem). That said, will it work? Yes. However, if you are going to go this route I would suggest adding several things: Additional battery capacity, a larger alternator and solar panels/wind generator. Best of luck.
C
Colin
How about this.
Install a commercial generator less engine and run it of your Yanmar. WW Grainger can supply a generator of this style (4000 watts for $500) and any decent marine mechanic could do the installation. Should be cheaper lighter and leave your batteries for what they are intended for.
Install a commercial generator less engine and run it of your Yanmar. WW Grainger can supply a generator of this style (4000 watts for $500) and any decent marine mechanic could do the installation. Should be cheaper lighter and leave your batteries for what they are intended for.
B
Bryan C.
Amps and watts and volts
My amateur electrical analysis: 2000 watts @ 110 volt is about 18.2 (2000/110) amps. To invert 18.2 amps 110 volt from 12 volt would require 166 amps (110/12*18.2) 12v DC power. And that's not figuring in loss of power for conversions (though I think inverters are pretty efficient). So by these calculations running a 2000 watt a/c is probably going to pull close to 200 amps out of your batteries. These calculations are in no way guaranteed accurate, I'm not an electrician, but I will say that when I plug in electric fans rated at .25amp/110v AC, they pull about 2 amps out of my batteries, so I think I'm in the ballpark. You would need a BIG alternator (or two) and big battery bank to handle that load. Best bet is to go with a dedicated AC generator.
My amateur electrical analysis: 2000 watts @ 110 volt is about 18.2 (2000/110) amps. To invert 18.2 amps 110 volt from 12 volt would require 166 amps (110/12*18.2) 12v DC power. And that's not figuring in loss of power for conversions (though I think inverters are pretty efficient). So by these calculations running a 2000 watt a/c is probably going to pull close to 200 amps out of your batteries. These calculations are in no way guaranteed accurate, I'm not an electrician, but I will say that when I plug in electric fans rated at .25amp/110v AC, they pull about 2 amps out of my batteries, so I think I'm in the ballpark. You would need a BIG alternator (or two) and big battery bank to handle that load. Best bet is to go with a dedicated AC generator.
D
Don Alexander
Done It
Hi Mike, I have a 376 and fitted a 1200w Heart Interface Inverter with Link 1000 Control/Display unit and an Adverc high rate alternator controller. The existing engine alternator can produce 55 amps though I normally get 45 amps. The batteries were increased to 400 AH by fitting a false floor above the existing locker base and this allowed 4 x 100AH batteries to sit athwartships. The setup works great but the discharge rate on the batteries of nearly 100 amps looks frightening so I often run the engine when using the microwave. I also use an electric toaster, iron, sandwich maker, soldering iron, hair dryer, standard size TV, electric drill etc, etc, and even a high pressure deck washer. Indeed all the comforts of home. BTW I looked at an engine driven alternator intending to run the engine at fixed revs. I found and bought a suitable unit then discovered there was insufficient room in the engine box for this machine. Of course I intended leaving the 12VDC machine in place. Not enough space in front for toothed belt pulleys nor on top for the machine - so I gave up. The Heart static inverter is extremely efficient and only uses a fraction of an amp when unloaded. Regards, Don
Hi Mike, I have a 376 and fitted a 1200w Heart Interface Inverter with Link 1000 Control/Display unit and an Adverc high rate alternator controller. The existing engine alternator can produce 55 amps though I normally get 45 amps. The batteries were increased to 400 AH by fitting a false floor above the existing locker base and this allowed 4 x 100AH batteries to sit athwartships. The setup works great but the discharge rate on the batteries of nearly 100 amps looks frightening so I often run the engine when using the microwave. I also use an electric toaster, iron, sandwich maker, soldering iron, hair dryer, standard size TV, electric drill etc, etc, and even a high pressure deck washer. Indeed all the comforts of home. BTW I looked at an engine driven alternator intending to run the engine at fixed revs. I found and bought a suitable unit then discovered there was insufficient room in the engine box for this machine. Of course I intended leaving the 12VDC machine in place. Not enough space in front for toothed belt pulleys nor on top for the machine - so I gave up. The Heart static inverter is extremely efficient and only uses a fraction of an amp when unloaded. Regards, Don
M
Mike DiMario
Thanks Gary,Jeff, Bryan & Don
Thank you for your input. I like the idea of using a direct driven alternator. I am not sure, however, that I like the arithmetic of trying to install enough battery backup to provide approx 2000 watts of continuous power. This concept started when I read a post about a SEAPOWER unit submittted by Stephen Vosko. We're not quit sure what the unit is. I was hoping Gordon would make comment. For as much use as it is going to get, I like the economics a whole lot better thatn a genset. Mike D
Thank you for your input. I like the idea of using a direct driven alternator. I am not sure, however, that I like the arithmetic of trying to install enough battery backup to provide approx 2000 watts of continuous power. This concept started when I read a post about a SEAPOWER unit submittted by Stephen Vosko. We're not quit sure what the unit is. I was hoping Gordon would make comment. For as much use as it is going to get, I like the economics a whole lot better thatn a genset. Mike D
E
Eric Lorgus
I tend to agree with Bryan's assessment
Mike: If Bryan is right, and your 2000 watt 110 VAC load will require 166 amps of 12VDC, are you going to have an alternator that can keep up with that load? If not, you're looking at a net discharge of your batteries. The next question is how long would you want to run the air conditioning? Even after you turn it off, you'll still have to run the Yanmar to recharge your batteries. Keep in mind that when you charge your batteries using the engine's alternator, you're probably not going to want to run the engine long enough to get a 100% charge. The West Marine 2000 catalog has a good article on page 281 about "Smart Battery Charging." For example, to recharge a battery that has been discharged to 10.5 Volts, 60% of the total recharge time will bring it to 90% charge, and then another 40% will be used for that last 10%. So, if you settle for something more practical than 100% charge, say 85% as the West Marine article cites, remember to adjust your total amp hours capacity for percent of charge, and then go from there in your overall load/capacity calculation. It sounds like your idea could work, but is it worth it? If you want to run a killer load like air conditioning, I'd think a genset is the simplest solution. Not only can it run your air conditioning all night, but it can power a smart charger and recharge your batteries at the same time. Eric Lorgus S/V Explorer
Mike: If Bryan is right, and your 2000 watt 110 VAC load will require 166 amps of 12VDC, are you going to have an alternator that can keep up with that load? If not, you're looking at a net discharge of your batteries. The next question is how long would you want to run the air conditioning? Even after you turn it off, you'll still have to run the Yanmar to recharge your batteries. Keep in mind that when you charge your batteries using the engine's alternator, you're probably not going to want to run the engine long enough to get a 100% charge. The West Marine 2000 catalog has a good article on page 281 about "Smart Battery Charging." For example, to recharge a battery that has been discharged to 10.5 Volts, 60% of the total recharge time will bring it to 90% charge, and then another 40% will be used for that last 10%. So, if you settle for something more practical than 100% charge, say 85% as the West Marine article cites, remember to adjust your total amp hours capacity for percent of charge, and then go from there in your overall load/capacity calculation. It sounds like your idea could work, but is it worth it? If you want to run a killer load like air conditioning, I'd think a genset is the simplest solution. Not only can it run your air conditioning all night, but it can power a smart charger and recharge your batteries at the same time. Eric Lorgus S/V Explorer
P
Patrick Ewing
Don't forget the heat produced
by the engine or genset as well as the inverter. No matter which way you go, all of those things will be producing heat which will have to go somewhere and be dealt with eventually. My engine does tend to keep me warm at night after running for a while. I dry my wet shoes in the upper storage compartment trays above it. A genset would probably be easiest to cool (with water) and could run the watermaker, warm the hot water tank, power the refer as well as charge batteries (do not forget all of these things get hot too). Trying to cool the interior of the boat while all of these things are making heat sounds like an uphill battle to me. You can get a part for the refer which will make it water cooled (assisted). Ample Power makes a small unit which makes 12 (or 120?) volts, powers a refer compressor, and will run a watermaker pump. Having one reduces battery requirements and water storage (weight, space, and tankage considerations). Inverter capacity could be reduced or eliminated as well. I am not sure if you can run an air conditioning compressor practically from this engine or if someone makes a suitable unit but it is theoretically possible. I think that I would prefer to remove some clothing and go for a swim.
by the engine or genset as well as the inverter. No matter which way you go, all of those things will be producing heat which will have to go somewhere and be dealt with eventually. My engine does tend to keep me warm at night after running for a while. I dry my wet shoes in the upper storage compartment trays above it. A genset would probably be easiest to cool (with water) and could run the watermaker, warm the hot water tank, power the refer as well as charge batteries (do not forget all of these things get hot too). Trying to cool the interior of the boat while all of these things are making heat sounds like an uphill battle to me. You can get a part for the refer which will make it water cooled (assisted). Ample Power makes a small unit which makes 12 (or 120?) volts, powers a refer compressor, and will run a watermaker pump. Having one reduces battery requirements and water storage (weight, space, and tankage considerations). Inverter capacity could be reduced or eliminated as well. I am not sure if you can run an air conditioning compressor practically from this engine or if someone makes a suitable unit but it is theoretically possible. I think that I would prefer to remove some clothing and go for a swim.
M
Mike DiMario
Not 2 Sure.
Eric, I'm not sure that it is worth it. Thanks for the feeeback. This is exactly why I posted the idea. I'm confident that I have a good handle on the calcs. In West Marine, they have a alternator that will output 2000w at about 2000 rpm. I am not sure that this monster will fit in the engine compartment. The biggest issue is the noise. Judging from a comfort standpoint, is the cooling worth hearing the engine run all night. From a safety standpoint, CO would need to be monitored. The alternator / inverter that I am proposing would be a direct hookup. The output of the alt would go directly to the inverter to run the AC. The numbers for batteries to run an AC unit are prohibitive. As Patrick so eliquently stated, going for a swim, makes a lot more sense than $3,500 for this or $10k for a genset. How often am I going to use it? A hot sweaty night, not able to sleep, can seem like an eternity. Thanks for the help thinking it through, Mike D
Eric, I'm not sure that it is worth it. Thanks for the feeeback. This is exactly why I posted the idea. I'm confident that I have a good handle on the calcs. In West Marine, they have a alternator that will output 2000w at about 2000 rpm. I am not sure that this monster will fit in the engine compartment. The biggest issue is the noise. Judging from a comfort standpoint, is the cooling worth hearing the engine run all night. From a safety standpoint, CO would need to be monitored. The alternator / inverter that I am proposing would be a direct hookup. The output of the alt would go directly to the inverter to run the AC. The numbers for batteries to run an AC unit are prohibitive. As Patrick so eliquently stated, going for a swim, makes a lot more sense than $3,500 for this or $10k for a genset. How often am I going to use it? A hot sweaty night, not able to sleep, can seem like an eternity. Thanks for the help thinking it through, Mike D
E
Eric Lorgus
$10K for a genset?
Mike: I don't know how much installation costs, but there are gensets out there for under $5,000. Try www.tropical-diesel.com/marprice.htm When I checked there in June, there was a Farymann 4.2KW for $3,400 and a 5KW Perkins for $4,920. I am in the process of buying a Hunter 54 which has a brand new 4.2KW Farymann genset, mounted under the cockpit where the engine for most boats would be. It has a pretty good sound enclosure, so while the boat isn't silent with the genset running, nor would I consider it noisy. The Faryman 4.2KW easily runs the H54's 16,000 btu air conditioner. It is a single cylinder diesel, and can be hand cranked to start. It also runs the AC-only refrig and a battery charger to charge the house bank. To put these two approaches into perspective, you can either hang a gonzo alternator on your 35 HP auxiliary to power a 2KW inverter, or, run a 9 HP genset to produce 4.2KW. More power to you. Eric Lorgus S/V Explorer
Mike: I don't know how much installation costs, but there are gensets out there for under $5,000. Try www.tropical-diesel.com/marprice.htm When I checked there in June, there was a Farymann 4.2KW for $3,400 and a 5KW Perkins for $4,920. I am in the process of buying a Hunter 54 which has a brand new 4.2KW Farymann genset, mounted under the cockpit where the engine for most boats would be. It has a pretty good sound enclosure, so while the boat isn't silent with the genset running, nor would I consider it noisy. The Faryman 4.2KW easily runs the H54's 16,000 btu air conditioner. It is a single cylinder diesel, and can be hand cranked to start. It also runs the AC-only refrig and a battery charger to charge the house bank. To put these two approaches into perspective, you can either hang a gonzo alternator on your 35 HP auxiliary to power a 2KW inverter, or, run a 9 HP genset to produce 4.2KW. More power to you. Eric Lorgus S/V Explorer
B
Bryan C.
Other alternatives
Your alternator needs to be rated at least 25% greater than rated to deal with loss of power when it heats up, etc. Furthermore, even a 150 amp alternator will put a strain on your engine and belts. And to keep from burning up your battery bank, you need at least 3-4x amp/hour capacity (i.e. 450-600 amp/hours for a 150 alternator. If you haven't tried it, a couple good fans does wonders using far less energy. I sleep out on my boat in the middle of the summer down here in Miami and with fans and I can sleep comfortably. On the hottest summer nights its a little warm, but you do get used to it and if you have air flow going over you you can keep cool enough. I bought a couple cheapo 6" fans from Wal-mart that I plug in and run thru the inverter. They draw about two amps each. The other option is to plan to stay in marina with power during the hottest summer months so you can plug in.
Your alternator needs to be rated at least 25% greater than rated to deal with loss of power when it heats up, etc. Furthermore, even a 150 amp alternator will put a strain on your engine and belts. And to keep from burning up your battery bank, you need at least 3-4x amp/hour capacity (i.e. 450-600 amp/hours for a 150 alternator. If you haven't tried it, a couple good fans does wonders using far less energy. I sleep out on my boat in the middle of the summer down here in Miami and with fans and I can sleep comfortably. On the hottest summer nights its a little warm, but you do get used to it and if you have air flow going over you you can keep cool enough. I bought a couple cheapo 6" fans from Wal-mart that I plug in and run thru the inverter. They draw about two amps each. The other option is to plan to stay in marina with power during the hottest summer months so you can plug in.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.