Alternator B+ To Starter Post Or Combine Post

Aug 3, 2014
68
CATALINA, BENETEAU OCEANIS 36, 400 Grosse Ile, Mi and Fajardo, PR
Hello Maine,

I am getting ready to upgrade the wiring on my 1984 Catalina 36, M 25 Universal diesel. I plan to remove the small wiring to the amp meter (ammeter) in the cockpit. I am faced with 2 choices.

1.) Wire the alternator B+ to the starter stud.

2.) Wire the alternator B+ to the combine switch stud or to the battery post and add an ACR.

You have stated a preference to isolating the charging circuit. However, I have not seen a post defining your justification.

My guess is, it has to do with over current protection/fuses.

This is a simple configuration; 2 group 27 lead acid batteries.

Questions:

1) Is over current protection important with smaller battery banks?

2) What is the advantage of an isolated charging circuit?

3) The 4 AWG wire and lugs appear to be copper. Should I upgrade to 2/0 tinned?

Thanks

Nick
 
Feb 26, 2004
23,016
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
You have stated a preference to isolating the charging circuit. However, I have not seen a post defining your justification.

1) Is over current protection important with smaller battery banks?

2) What is the advantage of an isolated charging circuit?
All his posts explain it quite well.

http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=137615

Moving the AO to the house bank avoids blowing out alternator diodes if the AO is interrupted if still connected to the C post of the 1-2-B switch.

Fuse at the batteries regardless of the size of the bank. A dead short is, uhm, potentially deadly.

If you're just doing the quick & dirty fix, http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/universal_wiring_harness_upgrade, what's the question again?
 
Feb 8, 2014
1,300
Columbia 36 Muskegon
While we're waiting for Main, I'll chime in with my take on it. If you connect the alt to the starter lug, you are charging to which ever battery you have the 1-2-both switch set to, and only that battery. If you connect direct to the house battery, you are putting your charge to the battery that needs it most, with the start battery charging through the ACR. The start battery needs very little charging. Also with this setup you don't have to switch anything back and forth, it just says set for normal operation.
By all means get rid of the amp meter and it's wires. Your lucky to not have burned up already.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,703
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Hello Maine,

I am getting ready to upgrade the wiring on my 1984 Catalina 36, M 25 Universal diesel. I plan to remove the small wiring to the amp meter (ammeter) in the cockpit. I am faced with 2 choices.

1.) Wire the alternator B+ to the starter stud.
This is the way most factories do this and it works but is less than ideal from a number of perspectives. If you have a factory alternator then this can be fine so long as no one passes the switch through the OFF position with the motor running.

2.) Wire the alternator B+ to the combine switch stud
There is no benefit to doing this as this is just the opposite end of the stater cable you could have picked up 6' before.


or to the battery post and add an ACR.
This is usually the best choice when you want good performance and no way to blow the alternator diodes. It does however require a fuse at the battery, usually 150% of alternators output rating but not to exceed the wires ampacity, and ideally a "service disconnect switch" in the engine bay for technicians. The ACR can be added to any set up you choose, even leaving the alt on the starter post. An ACR just makes the battery switch much easier to use. If you used a Balmar Duo Charger or Xantrex Echo Charger then you would need to run the alt to the house bank but this is not a necessity with an ACR.


You have stated a preference to isolating the charging circuit. However, I have not seen a post defining your justification.
I don't know which stated preference you are referring to? My preferences depend upon how the boat is wired and equipped. With a 1/2/BOTH switch I generally suggest using the house bank for everything and letting the ACR keep the start battery topped up as a "reserve" bank. This keeps everything simple, turn the switch to bank 1 / HOUSE and away you go. When you are done turn it off...

My guess is, it has to do with over current protection/fuses.

This is a simple configuration; 2 group 27 lead acid batteries.

Questions:

1) Is over current protection important with smaller battery banks?
Single group 24 battery, dead short, this answer the question...?;)



2) What is the advantage of an isolated charging circuit?
An isolated and dedicated starting battery is used only for starting and the house bank only for house but this can't be done with a stock 1/2/BOTH switch. The theory is to prevent brown outs of electronics when starting the motor. With two small batteries, eg: two group 27's on a 36' boat are miniscule, this can be a benefit and will avoid brown outs during starting. With larger house banks and proper wiring brown outs are a non-issue.

3) The 4 AWG wire and lugs appear to be copper. Should I upgrade to 2/0 tinned?
1/0 or 2/0 would be considerably better than 4GA but not because of the lack of tinning it is the voltage drop that makes a differnce.......
 
Aug 3, 2014
68
CATALINA, BENETEAU OCEANIS 36, 400 Grosse Ile, Mi and Fajardo, PR
Thanks Maine, Stu and Capt jgw,

Thank you for your advice. I have Maine's post on 1/ both/ 2/ off switch saved as a favorite. The post is excellent.

I will follow Maine's advice and establish a start reserve configuration and add a second group 27 house battery.

The house and start batteries will be combined and isolated with a Blue Sea 7610 ACR.

The start reserve configuration suggests I upgrade my wiring and fusing thinking ( I have no fusing now). The alternator B+ to house battery + will be 1 AWG, the battery fused with a 225 amp Blue Sea terminal fuse. The house battery + to battery switch 1 will be 2/0, the battery fused at 300 amps. Combine/ Both to Starter will be 2/0. Battery switch 2 to start battery will be 2/0, the battery fused at 300 amps. The ACR will be connected with 1 AWG wire and fused at 175 amps on each side. The 1 AWG wire may be larger than required, however I have some extra wire and battery lugs left over from an older project. In addition, this will allow me to easily upgrade the alternator. I estimate the round trip distance from the starter / alternator to the battery banks to be 25 feet.

A note about fusing. A 6 month old, 55 foot Lagoon burned to the water line at my marina last September. The cause is unknown.

I attached a wire diagram and appreciate your comments.

Nick
 

Attachments

Feb 26, 2004
23,016
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
Nick,

Nice diagram.

2/0 to the 1-2-B switch and then to the starter makes little sense.

With your AO to the house bank directly the rest of your wiring seems over-sized.

Basic Battery Wiring Diagrams This is a very good basic primer for boat system wiring: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6604.0.html

This repeats a lot of MS's material with other wiring diagrams.
 
Sep 28, 2008
922
Canadian Sailcraft CS27 Victoria B.C.
Nick

I count 5 fuses total. Why not use the same wire size for everything - say 1/0 - and fuse each bank with a 225 amp terminal fuse. 2 fuses then cover everything. Or use 2/0 and a 250 or 275 amp fuse. Much simpler.

Stu

1/0 or 2/0 wire will give quick starting and the runs are long. Both banks can be start banks with a 1/2/both switch so both should be wired to the switch with the same gauge.
 
May 10, 2008
392
Catalina 355 Boston
Nick I count 5 fuses total. Why not use the same wire size for everything - say 1/0 - and fuse each bank with a 225 amp terminal fuse. 2 fuses then cover everything. Or use 2/0 and a 250 or 275 amp fuse. Much simpler. Stu 1/0 or 2/0 wire will give quick starting and the runs are long. Both banks can be start banks with a 1/2/both switch so both should be wired to the switch with the same gauge.
I would agree. However you would need something smaller, either 2 or 4 AWG for the Alt as there is no way you will be able to attach a 1/0 or 2/0 to the Alt stud. So fuse each bank and fuse the alt separately based on MS suggestion of 150 % of AO but within the chosen wire's ampacity.
 
Nov 26, 2012
2,315
Catalina 250 Bodega Bay CA
Maine Sail: Ampacity? There is no such word! At least your analysis is good! Chief
 
Sep 15, 2009
6,243
S2 9.2a Fairhope Al
Read this......


Ampacity
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article does not cite any references or sources. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (March 2014)
Ampacity is a portmanteau for ampere capacity defined by National Electrical Safety Codes, in some North American countries. Ampacity is defined as the maximum amount of electrical current a conductor or device can carry before sustaining immediate or progressive deterioration. Also described as current rating or current-carrying capacity, ampacity is the RMS electric current which a device or conductor can continuously carry while remaining within its temperature rating.

The ampacity of a conductor depends on:

its insulation temperature rating;
the electrical resistance of the conductor material;
frequency of the current, in the case of alternating current;
ability to dissipate heat, which depends on conductor geometry and its surroundings;
ambient temperature.
All common electrical conductors have some resistance to the flow of electricity. Electric current flowing through them causes voltage drop and power dissipation, which heats conductors. Copper or aluminum can conduct a large amount of current without damage, but long before conductor damage, insulation would, typically, be damaged by the resultant heat.

The ampacity for a conductor is based on physical and electrical properties of the material and construction of the conductor and of its insulation, ambient temperature, and environmental conditions adjacent to the conductor. Having a large overall surface area can dissipate heat well if the environment can absorb the heat.

In cables different conditions govern, and installation regulations normally specify that the most severe condition along the run will govern each cable conductor's rating. Cables run in wet or oily locations may carry a lower temperature rating than in a dry installation. Derating is necessary for multiple cables in close proximity. When multiple cables are in close proximity, each contributes heat to the others and diminishes the amount of external cooling affecting the individual cable conductors. The overall ampacity of insulated cable conductors in a bundle of more than three cables must also be derated, whether in a raceway or cable. Usually the derating factor is tabulated in a nation's wiring regulations.

Depending on the type of insulating material, common maximum allowable temperatures at the surface of the conductor are 60, 75, and 90 °C, often with an ambient air temperature of 30 °C. In the United States, 105 °C is allowed with ambient of 40 °C, for larger power cables, especially those operating at more than 2 kV. Likewise, specific insulations are rated 150, 200, or 250 °C.

The allowed current in a conductor generally needs to be decreased (derated) when conductors are in a grouping or cable, enclosed in conduit, or an enclosure restricting heat dissipation. e.g. The United States National Electric Code, Table 310.15(B)(16), specifies that up to three 8 AWG copper wires having a common insulating material (THWN) in a raceway, cable, or direct burial has an ampacity of 50 A when the ambient air is 30°C, the conductor surface temperature allowed to be 75°C. A single insulated conductor in free air has 70 A rating.

Ampacity rating is normally for continuous current, and short periods of overcurrent occur without harm in most cabling systems. The acceptable magnitude and duration of overcurrent is a more complex topic than ampacity.

When designing an electrical system, one will normally need to know the current rating for the following:

Wires
Printed Circuit Board traces, where included
Fuses
Circuit breakers
All or nearly all components used
Some devices are limited by power rating, and when this power rating occurs below their current limit, it is not necessary to know the current limit to design a system. A common example of this is lightbulb holders.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,703
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Maine Sail: Ampacity? There is no such word! At least your analysis is good! Chief
Chief,

You may want to have a look at the NEC, IEEE Standards, the ABYC or just about every wire manufacturer before you make such boldly incorrect statements...;) Heck even a little source called Merrriam Webster knows about this word that apparently does not exist...
 
Sep 28, 2008
922
Canadian Sailcraft CS27 Victoria B.C.
I would agree. However you would need something smaller, either 2 or 4 AWG for the Alt as there is no way you will be able to attach a 1/0 or 2/0 to the Alt stud. So fuse each bank and fuse the alt separately based on MS suggestion of 150 % of AO but within the chosen wire's ampacity.
Depends on the alt. I recently used 2/0 on an alt on a Volvo and in the past 2/0 on a Yanmar but it was not a stock alt. My goal, especially on a stock alt with dumb internal regulator, is for virtually no voltage drop to the house bank connection.
 
May 10, 2008
392
Catalina 355 Boston
Depends on the alt. I recently used 2/0 on an alt on a Volvo and in the past 2/0 on a Yanmar but it was not a stock alt. My goal, especially on a stock alt with dumb internal regulator, is for virtually no voltage drop to the house bank connection.
True, but the stock Yanmar carries a 6mm stud and it was rather difficult to find a terminal ring for anything bigger than the 2 awg, which is what I used for a 60A alt and a 20 foot round trip. I put an 80A MRBF on this leg.
 
May 10, 2008
392
Catalina 355 Boston
6mm is close to 1/4" and lugs are available in that size for 2/0
Yes, I did use a 1/4" and did find lugs larger than 2 AWG with the help of MS and this forum. However the length of the stud wouldn't allow for a lug that big. There would simply be no way to get a lock washer on there. It turns out the 2 AWG is oversized for my application (a good throng) and allows for upgrading to a 'proper alt' in the future without having to rewire :)
 
Aug 3, 2014
68
CATALINA, BENETEAU OCEANIS 36, 400 Grosse Ile, Mi and Fajardo, PR
Thanks all, I will make a few comments and appreciate your feedback.

1.) Wire size between house battery and switch stud 1.
Wire size between start battery and switch stud 2.
Wire size between starter and switch stud both.

Stu, I am left unsure. These wires carry starting current. My starting and charging circuit currently is 4 awg. I understand new boat manufacturers are electing to use 1/0 and 2/0 on the starting circuit. The M-25 starts hard, I plan to add a glow plug solenoid, this may help. The largest wire you can connect to the ACR 7610 is 1/0. I believe large wire is best for the starting circuit. I probably will back down to from 2/0 to 1/0 conforming to the 7610. Perhaps 1/0 is over kill? What would you use?

2.) Number of fuses

Mitempo, I agree, you have changed my mind. The original diagram has 5 fuses. If I use a single size wire (say 1/0) then I can reduce the number of fuses to 2. I am a bit concerned about fusing (the now 2) starting circuits. I believe Maine has said 250 amp fuses are sufficient. Please see revision 1. What do you think?

3.) Fusing to outside engine space / inside engine space

My wires are inside and outside the engine space. The fuses are outside the engine space. Should I use the inside or outside column from the table to fuse wire?

4.) Blue Sea ACR 7610

The instructions and subsequent phone call to Blue Sea confirm the maximum fuse size on each side of the ACR should be 175 amps. I think I will violate the 175 amp fuses and let the 250 amp fuses perform double duty as noted in revision 1. Any thoughts?

5.) Ground Wire

I plan to upgrade the ground to 1/0. Ouch this is getting expensive.

6.) Alternator lug

Defender has 1/0 battery lugs with 1/4", 5/16", 3/8" and 1/2" holes. I will check to see if it fits.

Thanks

Nick
 

Attachments

Feb 26, 2004
23,016
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
Wire sizing

Stu, I am left unsure. These wires carry starting current. My starting and charging circuit currently is 4 awg. I understand new boat manufacturers are electing to use 1/0 and 2/0 on the starting circuit. The M-25 starts hard, I plan to add a glow plug solenoid, this may help. The largest wire you can connect to the ACR 7610 is 1/0. I believe large wire is best for the starting circuit. I probably will back down to from 2/0 to 1/0 conforming to the 7610. Perhaps 1/0 is over kill? What would you use?
Nick,

Hard starting indicates that you may need to check your engine ground connection and/or starter ground to engine. The glow plug solenoid should have nothing to do with starting, only the amount of time you need to hold the glow plug button in. Our M25 is almost 30 years old and we've had her for 17 of those. Haven't had hard starting ever. I still have the OEM #4 AWG from the bank to the switch to the starter. Maine Sail says it's horribly undersized, but the REALITY is that it still works for me. He's measured and published starting current draws (published both here in his Musings and on his pbase website). He also notes that it is for a VERY short duration. Nothing has changed since 1986 in terms of starting the engine, regardless of whether I've added a larger house bank and done the AO to the house bank and all the other bells & whistles I've added to my electrical system.

He also opines that #2 wiring from my alternator to my house bank is also undersized for my 100A alternator, yet the wiring size tables based on my distance says it's just fine (#2 is too big, actually, but #4 is too small but they don't make #3!!!:doh:)

For you, I'd select the size wiring that made you comfortable.

Your boat, your choice.

Good luck, you've got the right "design."
 
May 10, 2008
392
Catalina 355 Boston
Nick,

Maine Sail suggested I use a copper washer if using a 1/4" lug on a 6mm post. I have 99 left, so if you need some just let me know...