I realize that everyone has a strong opinion as relates to carrying firearms and I do not want to shake that hornets nest. But.... In foreign countries, you will be required to surrender them upon entry, thus your choice of whether or not to carry firearms is irrelavant...you will not have them(assuming you follow their laws). So, what other protection devises ARE legal, ie: bear repellent, crossbows???? ian
Alternatives to firearms
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Not necessarily so ...
Goto: “Firearms Regulations by Country” at the CruisersForum: http://cruisersforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1641
Goto: “Firearms Regulations by Country” at the CruisersForum: http://cruisersforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1641
Quote
A very wise man once said "Ask 10 wannabe prospective cruisers, and 5 or 6 might tell you they’ll be carrying firearms. Ask 10 experienced cruisers, and 1 or 2 might still be carrying firearms." Hum - can't remember who said it, but it got me thinking that perhaps there are alternatives to consider. Oh yea, I just remembered who said it.....
A very wise man once said "Ask 10 wannabe prospective cruisers, and 5 or 6 might tell you they’ll be carrying firearms. Ask 10 experienced cruisers, and 1 or 2 might still be carrying firearms." Hum - can't remember who said it, but it got me thinking that perhaps there are alternatives to consider. Oh yea, I just remembered who said it.....
25 MM flares are good
Spearguns ostensibly to be used for diving might work. Take a little dive gear too in case you are searched. A shotgun might be allowed. Get some good insurance, too. Crossbows, slingshots, spears, knives, pepper spray, etc. are all restricted in Canada. It is some of the most beautiful sailing in the entire world. Desolation Sound and Barkley Sound are absolutely stunning. Too bad the country has been overrun by draft dodgers, junkies, perverts and various socialist tyrants who now run the place.
Spearguns ostensibly to be used for diving might work. Take a little dive gear too in case you are searched. A shotgun might be allowed. Get some good insurance, too. Crossbows, slingshots, spears, knives, pepper spray, etc. are all restricted in Canada. It is some of the most beautiful sailing in the entire world. Desolation Sound and Barkley Sound are absolutely stunning. Too bad the country has been overrun by draft dodgers, junkies, perverts and various socialist tyrants who now run the place.
Wow Patrick!
I had no idea you felt this way about your neighbours... But just to clear up this matter... if your interaction with Canadians has been limited to the citizens of BC, they do NOT represent the views, attitude, spirit or politics of the whole country in as much as any state in the US does not represent the entire United States. Gross generalizations like that do absolutely nothing to improve relations between our two countries.
I had no idea you felt this way about your neighbours... But just to clear up this matter... if your interaction with Canadians has been limited to the citizens of BC, they do NOT represent the views, attitude, spirit or politics of the whole country in as much as any state in the US does not represent the entire United States. Gross generalizations like that do absolutely nothing to improve relations between our two countries.
Nonlethal defenses may make them mad
If you are in an isolated area and you spray bear spray in someone's face they might get mad!!! It is probably worse than doing nothing. Nonlethal defense buys you a little time to get help or escape. In a slow sailboat it's hard to go fast compared to a motorboat. Of course if help is close nonlethal is an option. Lethal defense has it's own set of problems. The guy robbing you may be very popular in town and related to the police captain. Dump the body(s) and get the hell out of Dodge???? Even in the USA lethal defense is legal only if you have a reasonable fear that your life is in danger....no you can't shoot someone for stealing your dinghy....that's murder!!!! Tom
If you are in an isolated area and you spray bear spray in someone's face they might get mad!!! It is probably worse than doing nothing. Nonlethal defense buys you a little time to get help or escape. In a slow sailboat it's hard to go fast compared to a motorboat. Of course if help is close nonlethal is an option. Lethal defense has it's own set of problems. The guy robbing you may be very popular in town and related to the police captain. Dump the body(s) and get the hell out of Dodge???? Even in the USA lethal defense is legal only if you have a reasonable fear that your life is in danger....no you can't shoot someone for stealing your dinghy....that's murder!!!! Tom
They can then file a civil suit
It sounds incredible but if you shoot a thief and cause him harm he can sue you for damages. It all goes back to reasonable force. If he can prove that once you pointed a gun at him that you had used all of the reasonable force required but you decided to shoot him he would have a good case. You can't shoot people for attempting to steal if a reasonable person could stop them using less force. And if he turns and runs but you shoot him to keep him from escaping you can't claim self defense. Go for a jury trial and try to get an all white republican jury....preferablly from Alabama. they might give you a medal!!!! I knew a truck driver who was in New York waiting to unload in the early morning hours. Two young men pulled out knives and attempted to rob him. He had a pistol and chased them off. They went and got a cop who then arrested the truck driver for unlawfully having a firearm!!!! He also lost his job as carrying a firearm was against company policy.
It sounds incredible but if you shoot a thief and cause him harm he can sue you for damages. It all goes back to reasonable force. If he can prove that once you pointed a gun at him that you had used all of the reasonable force required but you decided to shoot him he would have a good case. You can't shoot people for attempting to steal if a reasonable person could stop them using less force. And if he turns and runs but you shoot him to keep him from escaping you can't claim self defense. Go for a jury trial and try to get an all white republican jury....preferablly from Alabama. they might give you a medal!!!! I knew a truck driver who was in New York waiting to unload in the early morning hours. Two young men pulled out knives and attempted to rob him. He had a pistol and chased them off. They went and got a cop who then arrested the truck driver for unlawfully having a firearm!!!! He also lost his job as carrying a firearm was against company policy.
Back On Subject
I believe most people who decide to carry firearms when cruising do it for protection when out in waters alone...to protect against pirates. In those cases, I would say shoot the pirate (after you know he is one) and throw him overboard. When you port, yeah, declare your firearm because there are other means for protection such as local (cross your fingers) police. But when you leave, get your firearms back because there really isn't much protection when alone on the waters except what you bring with you.
I believe most people who decide to carry firearms when cruising do it for protection when out in waters alone...to protect against pirates. In those cases, I would say shoot the pirate (after you know he is one) and throw him overboard. When you port, yeah, declare your firearm because there are other means for protection such as local (cross your fingers) police. But when you leave, get your firearms back because there really isn't much protection when alone on the waters except what you bring with you.
Some boaters who plan a visit
to Canada may not know what to expect. I have been there and been interrogated about weapons as I said before. Spears? Slingshots? Knives? Potato guns? I went there for a vacation. We thought we were prepared with new flares and PFDs. We even threw a few potatoes and apples over the side so that we would not have any "contraband" on board. My friends boat was taken apart because he had a gun cleaning kit that he had used for engine injector cleaning. They now take his boat apart every time he goes there. He doesn't go there much now. When we went to Vancouver in the car, we parked in a government lot because it looked safe. Our car was broken into. The thief broke the window and stole the Christmas presents out of the trunk. The police would not even come out to take a report. They said it was my fault the window was broken because I locked the car. They have legalized all kinds of things which are repulsive to me. In Vancouver, they give away free heroin. They have given sanctuary to everyone from draft dodgers and deserters to a couple of mass murderers from Seattle. What is next - marrying your dog? I expected a scolding for a couple of illegal apples. CNG is $100 a tank plus 15 percent tax. Gas is a dollar a liter. Waiters are usually rude, prices are exhorbitant, and taxes are outrageous. I do not know why the locals put up with it. David, I have no quarrel with the people up there. Coming north from here is an experience you have probably not had the way I have. The boaters are generally decent and friendly people who will help you any way they can. The sailing grounds are wonderful. If you do not mind and prepare for the ordeal of customs, take supplies with you, and leave your water gun at home, it can be a great experience. My impressions are a result of my years of personal experience and knowledge. Others experiences may be better. I hope so but do not count on it. jimq26, I am not "on" anything mind altering like is available across the border for free unless you count orange juice or root beer. I guess if customs considers a spear to be a weapon needing to be confiscated, a root beer might be the same as a vial of heroin to their way of thinking.
to Canada may not know what to expect. I have been there and been interrogated about weapons as I said before. Spears? Slingshots? Knives? Potato guns? I went there for a vacation. We thought we were prepared with new flares and PFDs. We even threw a few potatoes and apples over the side so that we would not have any "contraband" on board. My friends boat was taken apart because he had a gun cleaning kit that he had used for engine injector cleaning. They now take his boat apart every time he goes there. He doesn't go there much now. When we went to Vancouver in the car, we parked in a government lot because it looked safe. Our car was broken into. The thief broke the window and stole the Christmas presents out of the trunk. The police would not even come out to take a report. They said it was my fault the window was broken because I locked the car. They have legalized all kinds of things which are repulsive to me. In Vancouver, they give away free heroin. They have given sanctuary to everyone from draft dodgers and deserters to a couple of mass murderers from Seattle. What is next - marrying your dog? I expected a scolding for a couple of illegal apples. CNG is $100 a tank plus 15 percent tax. Gas is a dollar a liter. Waiters are usually rude, prices are exhorbitant, and taxes are outrageous. I do not know why the locals put up with it. David, I have no quarrel with the people up there. Coming north from here is an experience you have probably not had the way I have. The boaters are generally decent and friendly people who will help you any way they can. The sailing grounds are wonderful. If you do not mind and prepare for the ordeal of customs, take supplies with you, and leave your water gun at home, it can be a great experience. My impressions are a result of my years of personal experience and knowledge. Others experiences may be better. I hope so but do not count on it. jimq26, I am not "on" anything mind altering like is available across the border for free unless you count orange juice or root beer. I guess if customs considers a spear to be a weapon needing to be confiscated, a root beer might be the same as a vial of heroin to their way of thinking.
Hold on for a minute, Patrick
I live just south of Patrick and have gone to visit British Columbia many times. I play the bagpipes and have played with several BC local pipe bands. I have sailed the Gulf Islands for many years and have enjoyed meeting many fine people who live in BC. If you don't like the way they run their country, then just don't say anything. You comments are not relevant because you don't live there. I've never been robbed in Canada. I've never been made to feel unwelcomed. I've been to France, Norway and England and I consider Canada my favorite country. If you don't like it, please just stay here in the US. One time when we entered BC through the Sidney (Vancouver Island) customs, I phoned in and they asked how the cats were doing (on a previous visit we had a sick cat that needed a vet), how did I like my new boat, as well as the usual questions. Then they welcomed me to BC. My point being, if you don't like Canada or British Columbia, if you "...find things there that are replusive," just don't say anything and don't go there. I doubt if you like my town, either. Les Blackwell
I live just south of Patrick and have gone to visit British Columbia many times. I play the bagpipes and have played with several BC local pipe bands. I have sailed the Gulf Islands for many years and have enjoyed meeting many fine people who live in BC. If you don't like the way they run their country, then just don't say anything. You comments are not relevant because you don't live there. I've never been robbed in Canada. I've never been made to feel unwelcomed. I've been to France, Norway and England and I consider Canada my favorite country. If you don't like it, please just stay here in the US. One time when we entered BC through the Sidney (Vancouver Island) customs, I phoned in and they asked how the cats were doing (on a previous visit we had a sick cat that needed a vet), how did I like my new boat, as well as the usual questions. Then they welcomed me to BC. My point being, if you don't like Canada or British Columbia, if you "...find things there that are replusive," just don't say anything and don't go there. I doubt if you like my town, either. Les Blackwell
Les, the original question was
about self defense. I have presented some facts and some opinions which are absolutely relevant to that topic. 1. My friend with the gun cleaning kit spent the entire afternoon putting his boat back together because the customs people thought he was armed. 2. The police did not even take a report when I was robbed and then took the opportunity to blame me for locking my car. They said it was probably a junkie who did it. The government seems to condone that. If you take your boat there, that is what you can expect currently. My advice is leave your weapons, and contraband at home and buy a lot of insurance. It is also useful to know what they consider to be a weapon, too. I do not think a little Hopps solvent and a brass brush is a weapon but it is to the customs guys. Another friend went to Mexico recently, and as required, turned in his pistol upon his arrival. When he returned for it as he was coming home, he was given a completely different pistol - far less valuable. When he paid the police officer to "find" it, he got it back. Those are facts not opinions and they may be valuable for a new guy to know. The customs people keep considerable records as you indicate so a wise cruiser will not want to get on the wrong side of their rules. I am glad to hear that you have a good record with them. Do not take a gun cleaning kit there though, or you might find a different attitude. As to Bellingham, there was a guy a while back who tried to buy C4 explosive to make a truck bomb. He planned to park and detonate it next to my office. Not just any office - my office. I know because when I went to the office, I encountered the K9 unit and 6 police cars. That day, the young man was arrested, charged and ultimately released without even a conviction as I heard it. He will even be allowed to vote. Paul Revak is a rarity but the mind set of the government and the legal system here is remarkably similar to that in Canada. At least here I am allowed to carry a weapon even if I am not allowed to use it. As to keeping my opinions to my self, I remind you that this is still a free country not Canada and I and many others here have paid dearly for the right. All due respect to you, I intend to assert it.
about self defense. I have presented some facts and some opinions which are absolutely relevant to that topic. 1. My friend with the gun cleaning kit spent the entire afternoon putting his boat back together because the customs people thought he was armed. 2. The police did not even take a report when I was robbed and then took the opportunity to blame me for locking my car. They said it was probably a junkie who did it. The government seems to condone that. If you take your boat there, that is what you can expect currently. My advice is leave your weapons, and contraband at home and buy a lot of insurance. It is also useful to know what they consider to be a weapon, too. I do not think a little Hopps solvent and a brass brush is a weapon but it is to the customs guys. Another friend went to Mexico recently, and as required, turned in his pistol upon his arrival. When he returned for it as he was coming home, he was given a completely different pistol - far less valuable. When he paid the police officer to "find" it, he got it back. Those are facts not opinions and they may be valuable for a new guy to know. The customs people keep considerable records as you indicate so a wise cruiser will not want to get on the wrong side of their rules. I am glad to hear that you have a good record with them. Do not take a gun cleaning kit there though, or you might find a different attitude. As to Bellingham, there was a guy a while back who tried to buy C4 explosive to make a truck bomb. He planned to park and detonate it next to my office. Not just any office - my office. I know because when I went to the office, I encountered the K9 unit and 6 police cars. That day, the young man was arrested, charged and ultimately released without even a conviction as I heard it. He will even be allowed to vote. Paul Revak is a rarity but the mind set of the government and the legal system here is remarkably similar to that in Canada. At least here I am allowed to carry a weapon even if I am not allowed to use it. As to keeping my opinions to my self, I remind you that this is still a free country not Canada and I and many others here have paid dearly for the right. All due respect to you, I intend to assert it.
Original question
Let me re-word my original question: I'm looking for alternatives to firearms so that when I am required to turn in my firearm, I will still have protection aboard. This has nothing to do with politics. I'm just looking for other means of protection. Also, in many countries you are required to secure the fireamrs aboard. Can anyone explain the practical definition of "secure" ? Thanks Ian
Let me re-word my original question: I'm looking for alternatives to firearms so that when I am required to turn in my firearm, I will still have protection aboard. This has nothing to do with politics. I'm just looking for other means of protection. Also, in many countries you are required to secure the fireamrs aboard. Can anyone explain the practical definition of "secure" ? Thanks Ian
Ian, my answer is
what I wrote initially. I surmise you are asking about what you can legally have in your posession for self-defense. Your ideas of what constitutes a weapon is probably not the same as the folks in Canada and may not be the same in other countries. The two items you mentioned would be confiscable and would get you searched and put on a list that you do not want to be on if you go north. A 25 MM flare will at least cause someone to reconsider their plans and you can carry one legally. We did have a rather humorous thread about a fire extinguisher self defense weapon a while back but you can find that in the archives. You might find more information on customs web sites for the countries you are curious about. Good luck.
what I wrote initially. I surmise you are asking about what you can legally have in your posession for self-defense. Your ideas of what constitutes a weapon is probably not the same as the folks in Canada and may not be the same in other countries. The two items you mentioned would be confiscable and would get you searched and put on a list that you do not want to be on if you go north. A 25 MM flare will at least cause someone to reconsider their plans and you can carry one legally. We did have a rather humorous thread about a fire extinguisher self defense weapon a while back but you can find that in the archives. You might find more information on customs web sites for the countries you are curious about. Good luck.
Patrick
PATRICK: Neither do I do think a little Hopps solvent and a brass brush is a weapon, but it might be considered prima facie evidence of the (sometimes) presence of firearms. Although, in this case, they may have been overzealous in their search - anything less would be negligence. These guys are dammed if they do ... Wherever you go, I also advise you to leave your weapons, and contraband at home. As your friend (traveling to Mexico) can attest, you’ll be lucky to get your gun, or even ANY gun back from Customs custody (in some jurisdictions). One strategy is to disable the gun, in the presence of the authorities, prior to turning it over for “safekeeping”. Now they cannot “play” with it, and it’s fairly valueless to steal
PATRICK: Neither do I do think a little Hopps solvent and a brass brush is a weapon, but it might be considered prima facie evidence of the (sometimes) presence of firearms. Although, in this case, they may have been overzealous in their search - anything less would be negligence. These guys are dammed if they do ... Wherever you go, I also advise you to leave your weapons, and contraband at home. As your friend (traveling to Mexico) can attest, you’ll be lucky to get your gun, or even ANY gun back from Customs custody (in some jurisdictions). One strategy is to disable the gun, in the presence of the authorities, prior to turning it over for “safekeeping”. Now they cannot “play” with it, and it’s fairly valueless to steal
It is a two way street, too
if you are planning on coming back to the US, you would find completely different standards here. I am referring to drugs which might be legal and even given away in other countries might get you a few years in prison here and or your boat could be confiscated. I would check out all angles of this question if I were going away and make sure I was in compliance everywhere I might enter a different country.
if you are planning on coming back to the US, you would find completely different standards here. I am referring to drugs which might be legal and even given away in other countries might get you a few years in prison here and or your boat could be confiscated. I would check out all angles of this question if I were going away and make sure I was in compliance everywhere I might enter a different country.
US vs Canadian Customs
We travel by car between the New York State and Michigan, going through Canada all the time to see relatives. When we go into Canada the customs officals ask about weapons, when we come back the US Customs officails never ask about weapon, they are more concerned if we have any fruit! BTW we love going to Canada, the people are so friendly, Nova Scotia ad Prince Edward Island are amazing! BTW: Patrick doesn't it seem logical that someone with gun cleaning equipment would have a gun hidden somewhere on board? Its their country and they make the rules.
We travel by car between the New York State and Michigan, going through Canada all the time to see relatives. When we go into Canada the customs officals ask about weapons, when we come back the US Customs officails never ask about weapon, they are more concerned if we have any fruit! BTW we love going to Canada, the people are so friendly, Nova Scotia ad Prince Edward Island are amazing! BTW: Patrick doesn't it seem logical that someone with gun cleaning equipment would have a gun hidden somewhere on board? Its their country and they make the rules.
Alternatives...
I've never carried a knife, firearm, stick, baseball bat, axe, or what ever for personal protection and have never been assaulted, robbed, etc. I trained in and taught a very traditional Okinawan style of Karate for 15 or so years, and no, have not had to use it either, at least from a physical perspective. We did teach four things that went hand in hand with our karate program that went a long ways to keeping you out of trouble. 1. Don't put yourself into places where you are going to have trouble. I felt really uncomfortable walking on a busy street in Berkeley recently with the people that were hanging there. I had no problems but was not going to go off into a dark alley or away from the public areas either. 2. Don't advertize. Out of sight, out of mind. I would not go to an ATM and withdraw a large amount of cash, or flash my wallet in a store, or wear gaudy amounts of gold chain etc. either. That goes for your shopping trips too, put your bags in the trunk, under a seat, or cover them up so they are not obvious. 3. Attitude - Park it! Some of the comments expressed in this thread sort of indicate why some are having problems. Courtesy goes along way. Wndering why customs is always checking your boat? Why were you not respecting thier laws regarding weapons? 3. Get out of the way of the train. If you are standing on a railway track and a train comes along, are you going to stay there? Same thing happens in respect to an altercation. When you start getting verbally abused by someone, you can stay there and exercise your right to free speech and escalate the situation, or you can walk away because you don't have time for that crap or don't sink to that level. Basic instinct is fight or flight. Flight beats fight almost every time. It is a changing world, and there is no question that stats related to violent incidents are going up. If you pack a gun in the US and that's what makes you feel comforatable, that's fine too, its a free country and accepted there. If you go elsewhere and there are gun laws in place, leave your gun at home or stay home. Amazes me to hear people complaining about customs and guns when is is well known that both Mexico and Canada have tighter restrictions on firearms than the US does... oh wait a minute, every state in the US has different standards too.
I've never carried a knife, firearm, stick, baseball bat, axe, or what ever for personal protection and have never been assaulted, robbed, etc. I trained in and taught a very traditional Okinawan style of Karate for 15 or so years, and no, have not had to use it either, at least from a physical perspective. We did teach four things that went hand in hand with our karate program that went a long ways to keeping you out of trouble. 1. Don't put yourself into places where you are going to have trouble. I felt really uncomfortable walking on a busy street in Berkeley recently with the people that were hanging there. I had no problems but was not going to go off into a dark alley or away from the public areas either. 2. Don't advertize. Out of sight, out of mind. I would not go to an ATM and withdraw a large amount of cash, or flash my wallet in a store, or wear gaudy amounts of gold chain etc. either. That goes for your shopping trips too, put your bags in the trunk, under a seat, or cover them up so they are not obvious. 3. Attitude - Park it! Some of the comments expressed in this thread sort of indicate why some are having problems. Courtesy goes along way. Wndering why customs is always checking your boat? Why were you not respecting thier laws regarding weapons? 3. Get out of the way of the train. If you are standing on a railway track and a train comes along, are you going to stay there? Same thing happens in respect to an altercation. When you start getting verbally abused by someone, you can stay there and exercise your right to free speech and escalate the situation, or you can walk away because you don't have time for that crap or don't sink to that level. Basic instinct is fight or flight. Flight beats fight almost every time. It is a changing world, and there is no question that stats related to violent incidents are going up. If you pack a gun in the US and that's what makes you feel comforatable, that's fine too, its a free country and accepted there. If you go elsewhere and there are gun laws in place, leave your gun at home or stay home. Amazes me to hear people complaining about customs and guns when is is well known that both Mexico and Canada have tighter restrictions on firearms than the US does... oh wait a minute, every state in the US has different standards too.
Rob, thats because
most Americans don't give a shit about anything else except their own country and their own self interests. Perhaps you would give a shit about Canada if you had a clue how much Canadian originated water, electricity and oil is sent south of the border. But to stop and think about that would require a degree of awareness about American dependance on the rest of the world, a characteristic not found an "most" Americans.
most Americans don't give a shit about anything else except their own country and their own self interests. Perhaps you would give a shit about Canada if you had a clue how much Canadian originated water, electricity and oil is sent south of the border. But to stop and think about that would require a degree of awareness about American dependance on the rest of the world, a characteristic not found an "most" Americans.
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