All you electrical genius types

[sailaway78]

OK Heres the deal. I didn't sail any last fall and winter, due to family obligations. I realized this spring that at sometime the boat had been hit by lightning. There was no shore power hooked up, and nothing turned on except bilge pumps. So far have replaced most bulbs and fuses, the macerator pump, raw water pump, auto pilot brain, and have diodes blown in the alternator. Both controllers for solar are fried. The solar panels themselves seem to be fine. Nothing was on except the bilge pumps, and both of them are fine. The Air-X had the brake on, and it is OK. Radios, VHF and SSB had fuses blown but no damage to radios. Took off for a six week or so cruise early this month. Started having starter problems second day out. Would just click like battery was low or dead. First time it happened, started back tracking and when I jumped the starter button she took off. Rewired the starter button over to the ign. switch start position, and it worked fine for two days. Then the same drill again. To make a long story short, I have since ran a new wire from the starter switch direct to the starter, thinking maybe the plug in the Yanmar harness was shorting or bad, as I had a problem with that a year of so ago, and again it worked for two days. At least I managed to do enough shade tree mechanican to get home. Now it will not turn over, just click, sometimes one click, sometimes like a machine gun. I have removed, cleaned and replaced every battery connection on the boat. Inspected and checked anything that even looks like a connection. Today I took the starter off, completely disassembled it, cleaned and inspected. Back in and nothing different. Just clicks. Pulled it back off and took it to the local starter/alternator shop. He took it apart and inspected everthing, then put it on the bench and it was perfect. Thirty times and every time it did what it should do. Back on the boat and nothing. I am reading full charge on both battery banks. Have tried a jumper between the hot post and solenoid. Still nothing. I did order a new starter, but I do not believe it is the starter. Last thing I did today was I noticed that the battery cable at the starter was hot, even with the battery switch off. Suspecting maybe a bad battery switch, I hooked the house bank cable directly to the common, eliminating the battery switch. Same results. The only thing I have not been able to do, is check the voltage at the starter when the switch is hit, to see if I have a major voltage drop. Will have another set of hands tomorrow, so can check that. Can anyone tell me something I haven't tried. I really do not expect a new starter, which I will have Wednesday, to fix it. Now suspect there is a bad connection somewhere, which allows me to read full voltage everywhere, but won't carry enough load to spin the starter. But at this point, I am ready to rip what little hair I have out by the roots. If anyone has any ideas or suggestions, PLEASE, post them up.

 

[tommays]

The voltage drop at the starter which your going to do is the key

I have a set of clip on leads for the meter and a automotive pushbutton thing with clips so i can work right there and that allows me to do this without the extra set of hands

 

[woodster]

direct connect

OK Heres the deal. I didn't sail any last fall and winter, due to family obligations. I realized this spring that at sometime the boat had been hit by lightning. There was no shore power hooked up, and nothing turned on except bilge pumps. So far have replaced most bulbs and fuses, the macerator pump, raw water pump, auto pilot brain, and have diodes blown in the alternator. Both controllers for solar are fried. The solar panels themselves seem to be fine. Nothing was on except the bilge pumps, and both of them are fine. The Air-X had the brake on, and it is OK. Radios, VHF and SSB had fuses blown but no damage to radios. Took off for a six week or so cruise early this month. Started having starter problems second day out. Would just click like battery was low or dead. First time it happened, started back tracking and when I jumped the starter button she took off. Rewired the starter button over to the ign. switch start position, and it worked fine for two days. Then the same drill again. To make a long story short, I have since ran a new wire from the starter switch direct to the starter, thinking maybe the plug in the Yanmar harness was shorting or bad, as I had a problem with that a year of so ago, and again it worked for two days. At least I managed to do enough shade tree mechanican to get home. Now it will not turn over, just click, sometimes one click, sometimes like a machine gun. I have removed, cleaned and replaced every battery connection on the boat. Inspected and checked anything that even looks like a connection. Today I took the starter off, completely disassembled it, cleaned and inspected. Back in and nothing different. Just clicks. Pulled it back off and took it to the local starter/alternator shop. He took it apart and inspected everthing, then put it on the bench and it was perfect. Thirty times and every time it did what it should do. Back on the boat and nothing. I am reading full charge on both battery banks. Have tried a jumper between the hot post and solenoid. Still nothing. I did order a new starter, but I do not believe it is the starter. Last thing I did today was I noticed that the battery cable at the starter was hot, even with the battery switch off. Suspecting maybe a bad battery switch, I hooked the house bank cable directly to the common, eliminating the battery switch. Same results. The only thing I have not been able to do, is check the voltage at the starter when the switch is hit, to see if I have a major voltage drop. Will have another set of hands tomorrow, so can check that. Can anyone tell me something I haven't tried. I really do not expect a new starter, which I will have Wednesday, to fix it. Now suspect there is a bad connection somewhere, which allows me to read full voltage everywhere, but won't carry enough load to spin the starter. But at this point, I am ready to rip what little hair I have out by the roots. If anyone has any ideas or suggestions, PLEASE, post them up.

Phil have you tryed hooking up a battery direct to the block and positive lead on the engine alone....good battery and a ground lead from neg and hot lead from battery to post on the starter then jump the selonid to see if it will start that way .....the only thing i can thik of is you may have a battry cable krimped some where sence you said you had a hot lead so sounds like its shorting out on some thing ....hope this helps

regards

woody

 

[RAD]

I'm thinking the the battery switch or the solenoid on the starter.....think about a gazillion volts jumping across terminals looking for ground, can you bypass the battery switch and try the starter (you probably did this) try replacing the solenoid or install an after market one but the unit worked fine on the bench
how about the grounds to the engine?? think about that gazillion volts looking for a path to ground

 

[Stu Jackson]

Our boats have a small in line fuse in the wire from the ignition switch. It is a constant source of starting issues for our skippers.

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4556.0.html

 

[Ariel]

Check the negative side connections from the engine block to the battery.

Dave
s/v ARIEL

 

[Old Skool Neil]

I'd start at the battery. With a voltage tester on the posts have your helper push the start button. Voltage drops - battery not good. Voltage doesn't drop - move down the line. Test next at the battery switch during a start attempt. Voltage drops at the battery switch input - cable or cable connection bad. Voltage good - move to battery switch output and another start attempt. Voltage drops - battery switch is poofed. Voltage good - move to the starter post. And so on.

The voltage needs to be tested at each point along the starting path with load on it.

I'm hoping the battery cables were the path of least resistance and therefore took the brunt of the load. I fear however that you may be in for an aggressive rewire.

 

[Don12364]

Forget lightning effects this is probably just effect of a loose connection or corrosion due to lack of use.
Have you got a decent negative return path from engine block to battery minus? It should be a meaty strap or starter cable type wire. Often forgotten and left off after working on the engine or electrics. Otherwise the current returns through smaller cables and even throttle cable etc.

Quick check - put voltmeter between engine block and battery negative. Switch on and try to start engine. If you see more than a volt or so on the meter your ground connection is suspect. Fix it.

Likewise to check integrity of positive supply. Connect voltmeter between pos post on starter and battery positive. It should read battery voltage. Now switch on and try to start up. Voltmeter should drop to almost zero - say less then 1 volt. If it does not, or stutters the pos connections are bad. Fix that too.
Good luck.

 

[RichH]

Yanmar 'control panels' and 'starting circuits' are notorious for high resistance and corrosion in all the connectors. High resistance equates to high amperage/low voltage.

Here's what to do to check:
First, measure the Starter main connection to ground with a VOM ..... the BIG electrical positive cable and measure with the VOM to 'ground'. Should be the SAME voltage as across the battery + & -. If not clean the batt terminals,etc. and/or replace the cables.

Checking the starter solenoid (primary) circuit: Run a 'jumper cable' from the large "+" cable on the starter. and 'momentarily' touch the "+" on the starter solenoid (a small wire connection marked +). If starter engages quickly and easily turns over engine then you have Solenoid or Solenoid control circuit WIRING PROBLEMS. Most common is the solenoid wiring ....notorious on Yanmar panesl. The jumper cable bypasses the solenoid wiring, the keyswitch, the pushbutton, etc and directly 'energizes' the solenoid.

If the engine easily starts with a 'jumper' ..... Then energize the keyswitch and measure with the VOM each and every connector and wire in sequence from the keyswitch ....... all the way to the solenoid connection. Use the VOM to measure from each component to GROUND. Any component that is more than 1/2 volt difference (from the voltage at the keyswitch) means 'high resistance' in the solenoid/starter primary circuit ... and that component or wiring should be cleaned or replaced. Check out EACH component and wire between the keyswitch and the solenoid.

The 'usual' bad actors are: Starter pushbutton .... carbon build-up on the pushbutton contacts; engine mounted solenoid fuse holder (corroded connectors); most of the OEM Yanmar wiring is non-tinned and will begin to fail after only a few short years ... replace with tinned wiring, all the 'connectors' in the OEM Yanmar circuits are also non-tinned, replace with tinned connectors.

 

[ebsail]

I think you've gotten plenty of good advice. I suspect your batteries were discharged for a while and they sulfated. After that, no amount of charging will bring them back to being able to hold a significant charge. They will show the good voltage, but don't have the amps. Borrow a good battery, or a car start booster, from someone and see if the problem persists. If the problem goes away, you obviously need new batteries. If not, see the previous posts.

 

[Bill Roosa]

The last thing you want to do is to start replacing parts.
The first thing you want to do is diagnose the problem which sounds like not enough voltage to the "S" terminal of the starter solenoid.
To test this take the wire off the "S" terminal and, with a screw driver short between the hot cable on the solenoid that goes back to the battery + and the "S" terminal. If the starter turns over the engine the solenoid control (S terminal to ign to bat...) is the problem.
If the shorting with a screw driver worked then take a volt meter and measure the voltage between the "s" term wire and ground when a helper hits the start button. You should get battery voltage if the starter is not turning and some thing around 11.5 if it is turning. move along the wire and test through the insulation on each side of each connector plug. When you see a sudden increase in volts avalable the last connector is the bad one.
If shorting with the screw driver did not work then the problem is with the solenoid high amp contacts. They are designed to move a new contact patch into operation every time you use it and over time they get carbon-ed up and stick. This makes one small contact patch keep getting used and it gets all oxided over and will not conduct. The final solution is to clean the solenoid high amp contacts but I have found that a sharp rap with a hammer near the contacts and applied along the diameter of the solenoid (not the long axis) to also work effectively

 

[sailaway78]

Thanks Guys

Many of the suggestions I have already tried. I have used a jumper wire from the positive post to the S terminal. To no avail. I keep thinking it has to be on the ground side, as it acts the same on both batt banks. And the only thing common to these is the ground. I have also run a totally seperate wire from the start switch to the solenoid terminal, by passing the Yanmar panel and plugs. Every cable, both pos and neg has been removed, cleaned and inspected. Going to work at it tomorrow with a helper, so I can do some voltage checks when the starter is engaged. Once again, thanks for all the suggestions, and I will post up what I find.

 

[kloudie1]

Sorry to hear of that new challenge, Phil. I think Bill Rousa has the answer.. Sounds like you have something wonky in the starter windings or the solenoid. I am thinking something strange like turn-to-turn shorts in the solenoid coil and some arcing/carbonization damage in the solenoid itself. Might work fine sometimes with low load and high voltage but any glitch might make it too weak to work or continue to stay engaged. Ya ought to be able to see that by checking the terminals of the (disconnected) solenoid. Should have completely open connection from big + on solenoid to the other terminals.. Should have very low ohms from the switch terminal to ground. That ohms measurement should be stable.. not change when you wrench or tap the solenoid body.. and ground side of the solenoid coil and engine block should be closed connection. and stay that way when the body of the coil is tapped.. If a batt wire is hot/warm while sitting, ya may have a partial short (low ohmage open?) in the solenoid allowing current when there should be none. From the Yanmar manual: "Between S and solenoid body 0.695 ohm.. Next, series coil test between S and M terminals.. 0.325 ohm.." There is a shunt coil and a series coil in there I am guessing that something in the solenoid is fried .. If the new starte works, it will confirm ..

 

[seadaddler]

Starter

He had the starter check out already and the expert said OK so I think he has some kind of bad connection some place in the + or the ground.
Phil get a battery and go straght to the starter from the battery and see if that works and by pass everything just battery and starter.
Nick

 

[Bill Roosa]

OK it is not the "s" terminal supply if you can't get it to crank by directly shorting it to power.
To test the solenoid you have to understand that how the thing works. It does two things, engages the small starter motor gear (pinion) into the large flywheel gear (ring gear) and makes a high amp connection between the battery + and the starter motor.
It does this in a two step fashion, first the pinion is engaged as the solenoid rod moves about 1/2 of its travel and then the high amp connection is made as the rod finishes moving into the solenoid.
To test the high amp connection locate the cable that is connected to the battery + and supplys the high amp current to the starter. There should be another high amp cable (not always though) that connects the solenoid to the starter. The latter is the one to measure voltage on as someone hits the starter button. After the click you should read 12is volts on the solinoid to starter cable when not running and 11.5ish when it is running. If you get much below 11.5 volts then the solenoid high amp connection corroded and is causing a large voltage drop and hense low amps to the motor. If you get 0 volts after the click then the high amp connection is not even engaging and you have a mechanical solenoid problem or a partially shorted solenoid coil. to test the coil pull off the "S" terminal wire and measure the resistance from the "S" terminal to ground while lightly tapping on the solenoid case. You should get 4ish ohms. If you get different resistances while tapping the coil is shorted.

 

[Blitz]

Every cable, both pos and neg has been removed, cleaned and inspected.

Have you check the resitance of the cables? - don't be surprised this could be the problem, especially if you are using the older Seidelmann cables. I had a similiar problem that a cable had high resistance through a taped (not heat shrunk) terminal at the starter. Wiggle (the cables) when testing - the resistance values should not change if nothing is loose. I replaced the starter cable only and my problem was solved. This in turn caused me to replace all the other old cables and thus have a more reliable system. I also put the relay in that many Yanmar 3GM owners suggest.

I too replaced the starter, and thought all the things that are being throw out here, and it just turned out to be something simple like a bad hidden connection. Good luck - let us know what you find.

 

[Benny17441]

Have the batteries load tested. Had a similar situation with starter leads getting hot and it turned out to be that the gear had jumped the flywheel toothed ring and jamed the starter. Sometimes bent or chewed up gear and ring teeth cause this problem. Also bronze bushings on starters develop flat spots usually at bottom which allow in certain positions for the armature to actually rest on the field coils. Withe the starter off the engine very little power is required for it to overcome a flat spot but with the load of the engine it may prove too much . If your solenoid is clicking chances are good it may be working properly. Check that the gear ring is recoiling. Remove the starter and place it in the same position as it goes in the engine, turn by hand and movement should be smooth, if you feel any friction then the bushings may need replacing. While it is out check the brushes to make sure there is enough material left in them and that they are seating well against the armature. Once again hook up direct power and confirm the starter spins freely. Harness wiring is usually routed through sharp fiberglass corners and with time and hull flexing the insulation of the harness is compromised causing short circuits. You indicate you have by-passed the panel but it is something to keep in mind after the starter gets fixed.