AITA? Racing situation that came up

[stickinthemud57]

A situation developed in a recent race, and I am thinking it is the other skipper who is in the wrong.

OK, here we go.

In the second race yesterday, We (EB) were approaching the windward mark on a starboard tack. (see the first graphic "opposite tacks at mark developing") Another boat (name not known), after failing to make their lay line on a starboard tack, had to turn to a port tack as they approached the mark.

This created a situation where we would both be rounding the mark at the same time (not overlapping, as they were on an opposite tack). I called "starboard", expecting them to yield. Instead they attempted to round the mark directly in front of me (see the second graphic "opposite tacks at mark"). They were pretty much in the irons at that point, with only momentum moving them forward. I had to take evasive action to avoid a collision, so close that I had to fend us off by hand. By then they had lost directional control and velocity and drifted into the mark. Frankly, I'm hoping my push had something to do with that.

After getting in the way of another boat on a starboard tack, they did a penalty 360 and continued sailing.

At no point did they call for room at the mark.

As I see it, they were entirely in the wrong. As we were on a starboard tack and they a port, they were supposed to yield, yet it was I who had to make an evasive maneuver. Given the difference in boat angle, I'm not sure they could have claimed an overlap situation, which would be required before they could call for room at the mark.

I would love to hear your thoughts, especially if you think I did not react to the situation properly.

 

[Roland5048]

I've only raced a few times but I would think this scenario would fall under the "Rules of the Road". The boat on a port tack gives way to a boat on a starboard tack. I don't believe the down wind rule would apply here. So, with that, IMHO, I would give you the RoW. Let the discussions commence.

 

[Davidasailor26]

Since you were at a mark Rule 18.3 is the one most in play here - “If a boat in the zone of a mark to be left to port passes head to wind from port to starboard tack and is then fetching the mark, she shall not cause a boat that has been on starboard tack since entering the zone to sail above close-hauled to avoid contact…”. Since you say you had to fend off by hand I assume you were forced to sail above close hauled? If so I’d say they broke rule 18.3 and were right to do their turn.

Some other incidental thoughts based on the situation:
- Mark room does not apply between boats on opposite tacks on a beat to windward. So there is no way either of you could have been entitled to mark room until after they tacked.

- After they tacked if you were momentarily behind them you could have quickly ducked below them, and you would have been entitled to mark room as the inside overlapped boat per the later part of rule 18.3.

- Being on different tacks does not affect the presence of an overlap. If one boat’s bow is ahead of a line drawn off the other one’s transom that’s an overlap, regardless of relative tacks. This doesn’t matter so much on a beat, but it’s important to remember approaching a downwind mark, as a boat on port gybe will be entitled to room if they’re overlapped inside a boat on starboard.

- If this same situation happened somewhere else on the course, not inside the zone (3 boat lengths) of a mark, rule 13 would apply instead. That rule says the tacking boat must keep clear of one who is not tacking until she is on a close hauled course. So the burden on the tacking boat there is slightly less than inside the zone. Inside the zone the tacking boat must not just keep clear until being on a close hauled course, she must also not force the other boat above close hauled at all.

 

[stickinthemud57]

Since you were at a mark Rule 18.3 is the one most in play here - “If a boat in the zone of a mark to be left to port passes head to wind from port to starboard tack and is then fetching the mark, she shall not cause a boat that has been on starboard tack since entering the zone to sail above close-hauled to avoid contact…”. Since you say you had to fend off by hand I assume you were forced to sail above close hauled? If so I’d say they broke rule 18.3 and were right to do their turn.

Not sure if this applies to the situation. My second diagram might more accurately depict the other boat as in the irons, drifting past the mark, and directly in my path. The turn I had to make did put me above close-hauled. Only my momentum and the fact that they were drifting slowly made it possible for me to get around them and continue sailing.

Some other incidental thoughts based on the situation:
- Mark room does not apply between boats on opposite tacks on a beat to windward. So there is no way either of you could have been entitled to mark room until after they tacked.

Makes sense.

- After they tacked if you were momentarily behind them you could have quickly ducked below them, and you would have been entitled to mark room as the inside overlapped boat per the later part of rule 18.3.

Not the situation here, but good to know. Thanks!

- Being on different tacks does not affect the presence of an overlap. If one boat’s bow is ahead of a line drawn off the other one’s transom that’s an overlap, regardless of relative tacks. This doesn’t matter so much on a beat, but it’s important to remember approaching a downwind mark, as a boat on port gybe will be entitled to room if they’re overlapped inside a boat on starboard.

Makes sense.

- If this same situation happened somewhere else on the course, not inside the zone (3 boat lengths) of a mark, rule 13 would apply instead. That rule says the tacking boat must keep clear of one who is not tacking until she is on a close hauled course. So the burden on the tacking boat there is slightly less than inside the zone. Inside the zone the tacking boat must not just keep clear until being on a close hauled course, she must also not force the other boat above close hauled at all.

Yes, I have encountered this situation on a few occasions.

Thanks very much for this detailed and thoughtful response. I sure have a lot to learn!

 

[Davidasailor26]

Not sure if this applies to the situation. My second diagram might more accurately depict the other boat as in the irons, drifting past the mark, and directly in my path. The turn I had to make did put me above close-hauled. Only my momentum and the fact that they were drifting slowly made it possible for me to get around them and continue sailing.

Ah, so they never really cleared onto starboard tack before the “contact”, they were still trying to climb in irons on port before making it far enough to tack? In that case it’s even more clearly their fault - it’s a simple port/starboard, and rule 18 doesn’t apply at all.

The other boat would’ve been much better served ducking down below you, picking up some speed, and tacking on your transom. With a good tack they could’ve been right behind you rounding the mark, and if the next leg was a run they’d be postured to take your wind.

This is also a good example of why it’s not great to be approaching a mark from the port layline. If they were 3 boat lengths below the layline they could’ve chosen to duck you or make that tack outside the zone where they wouldn’t have the rule 18.3 issues.

 

[stickinthemud57]

Ah, so they never really cleared onto starboard tack before the “contact”, they were still trying to climb in irons on port before making it far enough to tack? In that case it’s even more clearly their fault - it’s a simple port/starboard, and rule 18 doesn’t apply at all.

Yes. A little additional background: Well before the mark, we were both on a port tack. They went to a starboard tack and I told my crew they would not make the mark. I waited until I was sure I could make the mark before I went to a starboard tack. As we approached the mark, they, being unable to make the mark, went to a port tack. Approaching the mark, I called "starboard", at which time they tried to go to a starboard tack, but could not do so and clear the mark, so they ended up in irons, drifting past the mark directly in my path, eventually drifting into the mark.

The other boat would’ve been much better served ducking down below you, picking up some speed, and tacking on your transom. With a good tack they could’ve been right behind you rounding the mark, and if the next leg was a run they’d be postured to take your wind.

Yes, but they would have to catch me first!

This is also a good example of why it’s not great to be approaching a mark from the port layline. If they were 3 boat lengths below the layline they could’ve chosen to duck you or make that tack outside the zone where they wouldn’t have the rule 18.3 issues.

Agreed. There have been times I have approached a windward mark from a port layline and I have been forced to change course to stay clear. They made some strategic mistakes, and I think frustration hindered the skipper's judgement. That or HITA. I'll go with the former for now.

 

[Leeward Rail]

I read all these comments before my morning coffee, and wonder.. why would anyone race and deal with confusing rules like a bunch of insurance adjusters when you can just watch the race from your cockpit with a wine glass in hand ?

I could then just say that I would easily beat all comers ... At which point the whole concept of "why race and prove you won't win, when you can just say you will" comes to mind.

Works better when chatting at the bar regardless.

 

[BarryL]

Hey,

As you (and everyone else) noted, the other boat was in the wrong. What you need to do in that situation (you call starboard, they ignore you, you have to alter course) is call PROTEST (and fly your protest flag). Then they need to take the appropriate behavior (penalty turns).

If you don't protest the other boat, then they can continue to sail whichever way they want, with no repercussions.

Personally, I VERY RARELY will protest another boat. It does happen, but it's rare. More often than not, after the race I will seek out the other skipper and review what happened on the water with the point of educating the other skipper. Sometimes I make mistakes too, and I try to admit it, make my turns, and sail better the next time.

Good luck,
Barry

 

[stickinthemud57]

I read all these comments before my morning coffee, and wonder.. why would anyone race and deal with confusing rules like a bunch of insurance adjusters when you can just watch the race from your cockpit with a wine glass in hand ?

I could then just say that I would easily beat all comers ... At which point the whole concept of "why race and prove you won't win, when you can just say you will" comes to mind.

Works better when chatting at the bar regardless.

This ^^ sentiment competes closely in my mind with my instinct to out-do those around me, a feat I fail to accomplish on a regular basis, truth be told.

I try to keep my approach to "The Rules" more low-key, more to reduce confusion than engender it. I am not inclined to protest. Nothing's really as stake, so it's no big deal to me. The moment some cheap trophy becomes so important to me that I would get "all legal" with someone I consider a sailing buddy is the moment I need to reconsider my priorities.

Barry expresses it well. It's all about learning.

 

[Leeward Rail]

. The moment some cheap trophy becomes so important to me that I would get "all legal" with someone I consider a sailing buddy is the moment I need to reconsider my priorities.

Barry expresses it well. It's all about learning

I was hoping my post would be taken as intended.. mostly tongue in cheek.

That said, I totally agree on both counts.
I often suggest that people race if they want to improve their sailing skills. Especially by crewing with a better skipper.
Tactics and the rules add another intellectual challenge.

The trick is keeping it fun. I once had lunch with 2 former America's Cup sailors and they said they still love racing after years.

Me ? If you get me foiling dinghy I'm in.

 

[PaulK]

Being able to do turns makes protests less necessary and less frequent. If there is contact and damage, however, the insurance people will want to know who was at fault. Having the protest process available ensures that the rules are followed and that people are accountable.

 

[Davidasailor26]

It's all about learning.

I like thinking through these types of situations and reading the racing rules case book for just that reason. It’s not about trying to exploit the rules to win; for me it’s about understanding them well enough to race safely. I like to play through the situation from the standpoint of the keep clear boat and think about how I’d avoid fouling anyone and still minimizing losses.

 

[stickinthemud57]

I was hoping my post would be taken as intended.. mostly tongue in cheek.

No, I got that, but I was also sensing a bit of "Why take a perfectly good hobby and turn it in to just another thing that aggravates you?" It is also possible that I am projecting a bit there...

 

[Leeward Rail]

No, I got that, but I was also sensing a bit of "Why take a perfectly good hobby and turn it in to just another thing that aggravates you?" It is also possible that I am projecting a bit there...

Hehe. It's been decades since I raced. I never found it too aggravating. I suspect that was because I saw it purely as competing against myself. As long we/I slowly got better, it didn't matter where we/I finished.

At this point for me, it is "Why race a slow keelboat when you can hang out and watch with a beer" but that is because I want the feeling of speed or something extraordinary. A 505 or IMOCA 60 with foils, or a vintage Grand Banks schooner ? I am in.

That's not to say that my wife and I aren't watching the knotmeter.

 

[stickinthemud57]

Man, I watch those videos and I am green with envy. The idea of flying across the water as they do. I have had dreams about that...

 

[danstanford]

Shouldn't they have done 2 sets of turns? They fouled a competitor and they hit the mark.

 

[stickinthemud57]

Shouldn't they have done 2 sets of turns? They fouled a competitor and they hit the mark.

I think I would have needed to protest for them to turn on my foul, correct?

It's possible they did. I glanced back and saw them turning, but did not bother to count.

 

[PaulK]

You do not need to protest for anyone for them to do turns, but you should have counted the turns they did. If they think they MAY have broken a rule, they can do turns to exonerate themselves:
44.1
OTHER REQUIREMENTS WHEN RACING
PENALTIES AT THE TIME OF AN INCIDENT
Taking a Penalty
A boat may take a Two-Turns Penalty when she may have broken one or more rules of Part 2 in an incident while racing. She may take a One-Turn Penalty when she may have broken rule 31.

Thus, your competitor should have made three 360º turns: one for hitting the mark and two for fouling you. If you counted and saw them stop after the first one, a hail of "Protest!" might have reminded them about doing two more.

The wording of the rule brings up an interesting point. A boat might break several rules in an incident, and doing two turns takes care of all of the possible infractions. What if a boat on port fouls two boats on starboard at the same time? Is that one incident or two?

 

[Hayden Watson]

Your situation kind of looks like this in real time.

Who is the culprit of this mega accident?

youtube.com

 

[Davidasailor26]

Your situation kind of looks like this in real time.

Who is the culprit of this mega accident?

youtube.com

We’ll that’s a cluster. Most people would probably say the boat with the white deck started the mess. I’m not so sure, and it is slightly different than the OP’s situation. The boat with the white deck (call him #2) pointed way up, but the next one behind (#3) tacked onto port, possibly before #2 actually passed head to wind. If #2 passed head to wind forcing #3 to tack then #2 is at fault. If #3 tacked “voluntarily” while #2 was luffing but before he passed head to wind then #2 did not foul #3. #3 is just the windward boat and needs to keep clear by heading up or tacking.

So, for argument’s sake let’s say #3 tacked before #2 actually had passed head to wind. Now they’re both on port with no fouls having transpired. Then #3 makes a mistake tacking back onto starboard, violating rule 15 by not allowing enough room for #2 to keep clear after #3 gets onto a close hauled course and acquires right of way.

In any case #2 fouls the next white deck boat (#5) in a simple port/starboard. #5 probably should’ve ducked #2 instead of tacking. #5 technically fouled #3 by tacking into him, but would probably be exonerated because he was fouled by #2.

(And don’t ask how many times I scrubbed through the video to review all that. Suffice to say I wouldn’t be able to think through it in real-time.)