I know that you can buy an insulated, self adhesive rolls of insualtion that is foil faced for HVAC ductwork. I might try it on my exhaust hose. Plus it would make it a lil more rigid & less likely to slip out place from the fittings. Cheers.
Air Conditioning
- Thread starter medominique
- Start date
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Wrapping does make it rigid, so leave space at the ends of the hose if you have to angle for discharge. With the 1988 Mark II, I vented out the quarter berth port. I cut out a piece of cardboard to fit the space remaining to make a full seal in the opening port. The wrap insulation kept all the heat out of the quarter berth, which really helped. We used a fan on the bureau above the clothes locker to pull the air into the v-berth. Nice comfortable night at the dock. During the day however, it was about worthless!! That's when to consider a costly 16K btu central unit.
Bob
Bob
Ok, I was at Home Depot and spotted a portable LG 7000btu discounted for $159, couldn't pass it up. Will try it out this weekend on the boat and make a new insulated bottom slat with a cutout for the hose
I purchased a west marine cruseair from craigs list but at 5000 btu I was afraid it would not cool our 32 foot sailboat. The engine room and aft cabin are not connected to the same space as the rest of the boat, but I still was afraid on hot days it would not cut it. The unit drops down inside a hatch on the deck, but none of our hatches was just right. Will put it back on CL.
Yesterday I purchased this:
Whynter 14,000 BTU Dual Hose Portable Air Conditioner with Heater (ARC-14SH)
At 14,000 btu, it should keep the boat nice and cool. No drip condensation because the moisture is blown outside in the vented air. This will help keep the slipped boat dry and free of mold all season long. On my sailboat, it will tuck nicely under the stairs and the vent hoses will go through the engine room, and vented outside. No hoses will be seen, and nothing to trip on or be unsightly sticking out the companionway.
$555 and free Amazon Prime delivery.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002W87P9C/ref=oh_details_o02_s00_i00
Yesterday I purchased this:
Whynter 14,000 BTU Dual Hose Portable Air Conditioner with Heater (ARC-14SH)
At 14,000 btu, it should keep the boat nice and cool. No drip condensation because the moisture is blown outside in the vented air. This will help keep the slipped boat dry and free of mold all season long. On my sailboat, it will tuck nicely under the stairs and the vent hoses will go through the engine room, and vented outside. No hoses will be seen, and nothing to trip on or be unsightly sticking out the companionway.
$555 and free Amazon Prime delivery.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002W87P9C/ref=oh_details_o02_s00_i00
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Understanding the Dometic SmartStart
Hello from Dometic Marine – Makers of Cruisair and Marine Air Systems Brand Air Conditioning and Refrigeration Systems.
We’ve been monitoring this thread and decided to join the forum to lend some expertise and to help everyone out. We have reviewed the forum rules and regulations regarding commercial interests, and we hope that this post in no way offends or violates anything. All we want is for everyone to have the facts. The new SmartStart is a revolutionary new product that is unlike any other soft starter or hard start add-on in the industry. It is very important to understand how it differs so you can make the right choices for your individual situations.
Important information about the dangers of Portable Gasoline Generators
Before we begin, it is important to clearly state that Dometic does not condone the use of portable gasoline generators for any marine application since both the US Coast Guard and the ABYC strongly caution against it. Portable gasoline generators are not properly marinized and they present life-threatening risks and dangers, including carbon monoxide poisoning and risk of explosion since they are typically not ignition protected. For more information, please refer to the USCG bulletins on this topic available online at http://www.uscgboating.org/assets/pd...bscscan68a.pdf and http://www.uscgboating.org/assets/pdf/recalls/BSC74.pdf. Also, please refer to the ABYC document TH-22 (http://www.abycinc.org/th-22.pdf) where they discuss the use of portable generators on boats.
Test Setup and Equipment
In order to provide you with the most accurate information, Dometic obtained a Honda EU2000i generator and a Supco SPP6E Super Boost for side-by-side testing with the new Dometic SmartStart. Both the Honda and Supco products are very good, and by no means was this study conducted in order to put down either one. This study is meant to help everyone better understand how the SmartStart is different and where and why it can solve the problems discussed in this thread where other products cannot.
The current surge caused when an air conditioner compressor starts up is very short in duration, typically 150-300 milliseconds. Hand-held clamp-on current meters typically cannot measure this surge accurately because they typically display an averaged reading about once per second. As a result, the reading obtained with a clamp-on meter is always much lower than what has actually occurred. For our SmartStart development which started over one year ago, we at Dometic developed a custom and very specialized piece of test equipment to accurately capture and measure the start surge accurately. This specialized equipment along with an oscilloscope was to carry out the following study. Below is a photo of the test setup which conducted outdoors so we could run the Honda generator. We used a Cruisair model STQ16-R410A Turbo self-contained 16,000 BTU air conditioner for most of the testing.
Outdoor Test Lab Setup
Technical Differences between the Dometic SmartStart and the Supco SPP6E (Class E Super Boost)
The Supco SPP6E Super Boost device consists of a 88-106MFD start capacitor connected in series with an electronically-controlled, solid-state potential relay. Using voltage sensing, it connects the start capacitor in parallel to the air conditioners run capacitor during the start up. As the voltage across the run capacitor (Run winding to Start winding) increases during the start, the device switches out the start capacitor at a preset level or after a timeout period expires. This sequence partially mimics the behavior of a full hard-start kit (start cap with a mechanical start relay) but not exactly. A true potential start relay has its coil connected across the compressor Common and the Start winding. The voltage behavior between these two compressor terminals is a little more predicable during a start-up. As a result, a true start relay can accomplish a more reliable disengagement of the start capacitor. Nevertheless, the Supco Super Boost does provide a good portion of the benefit of a true hard-start kit and reduced cost. Based on our measurements (shown below), the Super Boost provided a startup current surge reduction of about 20-25%.
The new Dometic SmartStart is completely different. The SmartStart uses a microprocessor to provide real-time control of the applied voltage and current to the Start winding and Run winding independently. The voltage applied to the start winding is also shifted in phase by an internal start capacitor. The application of voltage is so precise that each half alternation of the applied AC power is individually handled by the microprocessor. Then, using back EMF detection, the SmartStart determines when the motor’s rotor actually begins to rotate. The SmartStart then accelerates the rotor until it has achieved full speed. Then, at a very precise moment when the current waveform passes through zero, the SmartStart seamlessly bypasses its internal control devices with relays to connect the Run winding directly with L2 and disconnecting from the Start winding.
The SmartStart’s intelligence then even goes beyond this. Using the information it gathers from each start, it actually “learns” from what happened during one startup to determine what to use on its next startup. So, immediately after installing and using it on for the very first time, the SmartStart may take up to 10 startups for it to optimize itself to the absolute lowest possible starting current. After that, it continues to fine tune its startup behavior from start to start, up or down, depending on age of the compressor, environmental conditions, and voltage.
The result of this microprocessor-controlled automation and recursive learning is the absolutely lowest possible startup current required for each individual compressor and SmartStart combination. For all models of the SmartStart, the average start-up current reduction achieved is 65%.
Test Results
Two sets of tests were run: One on utility power and one on generator power. The Honda EU2000i has an “ECO” switch that allows for economy mode operation. This economy mode of course results in the generator running at a lower throttle setting to save fuel. However, there is a trade-off. When ECO mode is turned ON, the generator cannot respond quite as quickly to rapid changes in load current. Under certain test conditions, the compressor start surge on generator power caused the generator’s output voltage to drop drastically and to become erratic when the compressor start faltered, and also caused the generator’s maximum output current to be clamped. So, in order to accurately quantify what each hardware configuration would do, accurate start current data was captured using utility power. Later in the generator tests, instantaneous voltage fluctuation was also measured. In the end, both current surge and voltage drop do matter since voltage drop can dramatically and sometimes detrimentally affect other equipment that may be operating on the same generator.
Analysis
The Honda EU2000i is quite a potent little device. Regardless of the start component configuration, it was able to start the 16000 BTU system reliably when the ECO mode was turned off. When the ECO mode was turned on, however, the generator had trouble with the standard configuration and with the Supco SPP6E installed. The Supco Super Boost did help, but the resulting voltage drop to around 67V (46%) was problematic in that it did sometimes reset the digital controls. Other equipment running off the same generator would have also been affected.
The SmartStart made a dramatic difference. With the ECO switch turned on, the generator was able to tolerate the 18 amp start surge with only about a 20% drop in voltage. With the ECO switch turned off, the generator didn’t even flinch (i.e. no measurable voltage drop).
Summary
As was cited elsewhere in this thread, the Honda EU2000i can support a 16,000 BTU air conditioner without any added hardware. But as our testing showed, this would only work if the ECO mode was turned off. Adding the Supco SPP6E provides a marginal improvement, but for our specific test with the 16000 BTU system, it could not guarantee a reliable start-up if the generator was operating in ECO mode. Beyond this, if other equipment is already loading the generator (e.g. sea water pump), that will further reduce the available amperage for the compressor start-up. Adding the Dometic SmartStart provides a dramatic improvement, provides a reliable start under almost all conditions, and will allow the generator to be run in ECO mode, which will certainly reduce fuel consumption.
Dometic is very happy to contribute to this forum; however, we cannot guarantee that someone will always have the opportunity to monitor it at all times. We will do our best to return to this thread in the coming days to answer any follow-up questions. In the future, others from Dometic may use this user ID to answer other questions on this forum.
Thank you for your continued interest and support.
Thank you.
M. Giovanetti
Director of Technology
Dometic Marine Corporation
Last edited by DometicMarine; 03-11-2010 at 12:47 PM.
Understanding the Dometic SmartStart
Hello from Dometic Marine – Makers of Cruisair and Marine Air Systems Brand Air Conditioning and Refrigeration Systems.
We’ve been monitoring this thread and decided to join the forum to lend some expertise and to help everyone out. We have reviewed the forum rules and regulations regarding commercial interests, and we hope that this post in no way offends or violates anything. All we want is for everyone to have the facts. The new SmartStart is a revolutionary new product that is unlike any other soft starter or hard start add-on in the industry. It is very important to understand how it differs so you can make the right choices for your individual situations.
Important information about the dangers of Portable Gasoline Generators
Before we begin, it is important to clearly state that Dometic does not condone the use of portable gasoline generators for any marine application since both the US Coast Guard and the ABYC strongly caution against it. Portable gasoline generators are not properly marinized and they present life-threatening risks and dangers, including carbon monoxide poisoning and risk of explosion since they are typically not ignition protected. For more information, please refer to the USCG bulletins on this topic available online at http://www.uscgboating.org/assets/pd...bscscan68a.pdf and http://www.uscgboating.org/assets/pdf/recalls/BSC74.pdf. Also, please refer to the ABYC document TH-22 (http://www.abycinc.org/th-22.pdf) where they discuss the use of portable generators on boats.
Test Setup and Equipment
In order to provide you with the most accurate information, Dometic obtained a Honda EU2000i generator and a Supco SPP6E Super Boost for side-by-side testing with the new Dometic SmartStart. Both the Honda and Supco products are very good, and by no means was this study conducted in order to put down either one. This study is meant to help everyone better understand how the SmartStart is different and where and why it can solve the problems discussed in this thread where other products cannot.
The current surge caused when an air conditioner compressor starts up is very short in duration, typically 150-300 milliseconds. Hand-held clamp-on current meters typically cannot measure this surge accurately because they typically display an averaged reading about once per second. As a result, the reading obtained with a clamp-on meter is always much lower than what has actually occurred. For our SmartStart development which started over one year ago, we at Dometic developed a custom and very specialized piece of test equipment to accurately capture and measure the start surge accurately. This specialized equipment along with an oscilloscope was to carry out the following study. Below is a photo of the test setup which conducted outdoors so we could run the Honda generator. We used a Cruisair model STQ16-R410A Turbo self-contained 16,000 BTU air conditioner for most of the testing.
Outdoor Test Lab Setup
Technical Differences between the Dometic SmartStart and the Supco SPP6E (Class E Super Boost)
The Supco SPP6E Super Boost device consists of a 88-106MFD start capacitor connected in series with an electronically-controlled, solid-state potential relay. Using voltage sensing, it connects the start capacitor in parallel to the air conditioners run capacitor during the start up. As the voltage across the run capacitor (Run winding to Start winding) increases during the start, the device switches out the start capacitor at a preset level or after a timeout period expires. This sequence partially mimics the behavior of a full hard-start kit (start cap with a mechanical start relay) but not exactly. A true potential start relay has its coil connected across the compressor Common and the Start winding. The voltage behavior between these two compressor terminals is a little more predicable during a start-up. As a result, a true start relay can accomplish a more reliable disengagement of the start capacitor. Nevertheless, the Supco Super Boost does provide a good portion of the benefit of a true hard-start kit and reduced cost. Based on our measurements (shown below), the Super Boost provided a startup current surge reduction of about 20-25%.
The new Dometic SmartStart is completely different. The SmartStart uses a microprocessor to provide real-time control of the applied voltage and current to the Start winding and Run winding independently. The voltage applied to the start winding is also shifted in phase by an internal start capacitor. The application of voltage is so precise that each half alternation of the applied AC power is individually handled by the microprocessor. Then, using back EMF detection, the SmartStart determines when the motor’s rotor actually begins to rotate. The SmartStart then accelerates the rotor until it has achieved full speed. Then, at a very precise moment when the current waveform passes through zero, the SmartStart seamlessly bypasses its internal control devices with relays to connect the Run winding directly with L2 and disconnecting from the Start winding.
The SmartStart’s intelligence then even goes beyond this. Using the information it gathers from each start, it actually “learns” from what happened during one startup to determine what to use on its next startup. So, immediately after installing and using it on for the very first time, the SmartStart may take up to 10 startups for it to optimize itself to the absolute lowest possible starting current. After that, it continues to fine tune its startup behavior from start to start, up or down, depending on age of the compressor, environmental conditions, and voltage.
The result of this microprocessor-controlled automation and recursive learning is the absolutely lowest possible startup current required for each individual compressor and SmartStart combination. For all models of the SmartStart, the average start-up current reduction achieved is 65%.
Test Results
Two sets of tests were run: One on utility power and one on generator power. The Honda EU2000i has an “ECO” switch that allows for economy mode operation. This economy mode of course results in the generator running at a lower throttle setting to save fuel. However, there is a trade-off. When ECO mode is turned ON, the generator cannot respond quite as quickly to rapid changes in load current. Under certain test conditions, the compressor start surge on generator power caused the generator’s output voltage to drop drastically and to become erratic when the compressor start faltered, and also caused the generator’s maximum output current to be clamped. So, in order to accurately quantify what each hardware configuration would do, accurate start current data was captured using utility power. Later in the generator tests, instantaneous voltage fluctuation was also measured. In the end, both current surge and voltage drop do matter since voltage drop can dramatically and sometimes detrimentally affect other equipment that may be operating on the same generator.
Analysis
The Honda EU2000i is quite a potent little device. Regardless of the start component configuration, it was able to start the 16000 BTU system reliably when the ECO mode was turned off. When the ECO mode was turned on, however, the generator had trouble with the standard configuration and with the Supco SPP6E installed. The Supco Super Boost did help, but the resulting voltage drop to around 67V (46%) was problematic in that it did sometimes reset the digital controls. Other equipment running off the same generator would have also been affected.
The SmartStart made a dramatic difference. With the ECO switch turned on, the generator was able to tolerate the 18 amp start surge with only about a 20% drop in voltage. With the ECO switch turned off, the generator didn’t even flinch (i.e. no measurable voltage drop).
Summary
As was cited elsewhere in this thread, the Honda EU2000i can support a 16,000 BTU air conditioner without any added hardware. But as our testing showed, this would only work if the ECO mode was turned off. Adding the Supco SPP6E provides a marginal improvement, but for our specific test with the 16000 BTU system, it could not guarantee a reliable start-up if the generator was operating in ECO mode. Beyond this, if other equipment is already loading the generator (e.g. sea water pump), that will further reduce the available amperage for the compressor start-up. Adding the Dometic SmartStart provides a dramatic improvement, provides a reliable start under almost all conditions, and will allow the generator to be run in ECO mode, which will certainly reduce fuel consumption.
Dometic is very happy to contribute to this forum; however, we cannot guarantee that someone will always have the opportunity to monitor it at all times. We will do our best to return to this thread in the coming days to answer any follow-up questions. In the future, others from Dometic may use this user ID to answer other questions on this forum.
Thank you for your continued interest and support.
Thank you.
M. Giovanetti
Director of Technology
Dometic Marine Corporation
Last edited by DometicMarine; 03-11-2010 at 12:47 PM.
My takeaway is that the Honda EU2000 will run the 16,000btu A/C. If you buy the Dometic SmartStart, you can run the generator longer before having to refill it with fuel. Question not answered: how much longer?
Take a look at my own DIY AC installation of two units—never done it before either. At http://www.schooner-britannia.com/air_conditioning.html It works really well and keeps the inside of the boat a steady 75 degrees, even when it’s 95 outside in Florida. It also works from my 6.5 kw inboard generator when not on shore power.
Using a generator on board a 30 foot boat is a lil much for me. If I was a liveaboard or a full time cruiser then maybe it would be a different story. Most of us just want cool A.C. when were at a hot marina slip. Since we already have 30 amps shore power their the generator is overkill. When we sleep at anchor its just the opposite. We like to keep it simple. Generators are a dangerous fire & carbon monoxide hazard. That's why the Coast Guard doesn't like them.
longterm
.
- Feb 5, 2012
- 183
There are ways to use a generator on a C30 safely:jrowan said:
I have a cable that I use to suspend the ladder in a horizontal position. On top of that goes a wooden tray, with stiff foam padding underneath (for vibration reduction) where it rests on the ladder. The generator (I'm blanking on the name now but it was about $600) rests in the tray, and then a thick canvas strap secures tray and generator to the ladder. Exhaust goes aft, away from the boat; the electrical connection faces the boat.
The gennie is less than 40 pounds, lives in the lazarette; it's not silent so we cool the cabin down (I have an A/C built in under the v-berth) for the night then shut it off.
Works great, is safe, not too expensive. Next time I use it I'll try to remember to take photos.
Bob
I'm just wondering.
Would it be possible to buy a 16k BTU window unit and take it apart.
Creating duct work for the cold air flow throughout the cabin, create a 'cold air return' to funnel air back into the front of the a/c unit and then create duct work that would vent out the back of the boat.
Perhaps the venting would do double duty with the current exhaust fan that pulls fumes out of the engine bay...
Since the unit would be removed from the box housing, I could create some type of platform and mount it under the vberth.
The only thing left would be to create a hose for condensation that could drain into the bilge.
I don't know, I've done heating and a/c duct work and maybe I'm naive to think someone with some skill could do that with an a/c unit.
Just wondering...
Would it be possible to buy a 16k BTU window unit and take it apart.
Creating duct work for the cold air flow throughout the cabin, create a 'cold air return' to funnel air back into the front of the a/c unit and then create duct work that would vent out the back of the boat.
Perhaps the venting would do double duty with the current exhaust fan that pulls fumes out of the engine bay...
Since the unit would be removed from the box housing, I could create some type of platform and mount it under the vberth.
The only thing left would be to create a hose for condensation that could drain into the bilge.
I don't know, I've done heating and a/c duct work and maybe I'm naive to think someone with some skill could do that with an a/c unit.
Just wondering...
Yes U can take apart a window unit & rework it to fit where you want it. The hard part is not damaging the internal components when moving it, seperating & mounting them, running the copper tubing for the refrigerant line extra length needed from the compressor to the evaporator coils, etc. Then you have to wire it up & vent it properly. I would hesitate to use the exhaust vent hose for the bilge blower. I thought of that one too, but what would prevent the hot air from blowing backwards into the bilge & causing unwanted condensation to form? I believe that Phil in the C 27 pages has been working on his custom A/C now for a while, ask him for advice. I've also thought about mounting an automative type A/C compressor onto the diesel engine. It would rob some horse power, but would certainly work & not require a generator or other source of power, etc. You could use auto A/C hoses to an auto dryer unit & condensor, but without air blowing through it from a fan, I'm not sure if it would work or not. Guess there's draw backs to every design. That's why I bought the stand up model. Comparitively cheap & easy way to stay cool at the dock.
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