AGM Batteries. seem to be dying.

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Jan 1, 2009
371
Atlantic 42 Honolulu
RTFM

Ignore Tom who tells you to violate what the manual tells you to not do.
No I am not. I am suggesting that he may do to his battery what the battery manufacturer recommends in their manual. It is clear that you have not read that manual.

--Tom.
 

luvitt

.
Oct 30, 2008
297
na na na
Brobins, I have the TRCG 40 also. If you have equipment on your boat you really should believe what the owners manual tells you for the proper treatment /use of your charger. It will tell you important stuff like: "If possible, disconnect all loads from the battery.The charger detects a battery is fully charged when its charging current drops below a preset limit. (It will never drop if you have a load, drawing amps.) The presence of electrical loads on the battery may interfere with this detection (to see if battery is fully charged) method".... Also the part that says it "equalizes only flooded lead-acid betteries. If the battery selector is set for Gel or AGM... the TRCH does not enter equalization mode".

On your schematic I'm not sure why you have a red line from the TRCH to the fuse panel since you have a switch for that- unless you are trying to drive your equipment straight from the TRCH? I'm not sure that's the best idea unless you've operated the units mode switch to the 13.5 volt setting. And yes, you should charge for a full day at least.

Ignore Tom who tells you to violate what the manual tells you to not do.

oops. i drew that extra red line to the panel by mistake. I was copying another drawing where i had considered a battery eliminator. There is only one red dc cable coming out of my truecharge 40.
 

luvitt

.
Oct 30, 2008
297
na na na
Your wiring diagram has me asking a few questions. Like why you have the TC40 two outputs hooked up through the battery switch, and why one of them goes to the main DC panel of the boat?

In general, I usually see most AC chargers connected to the batteries directly or to the power post of the batteries directly.... If yours are wired on the wrong side of the switch, even when the AC shorepower and the charger's AC circuit breaker are on, you may not be charging the batteries, unless both the battery switch and the circuit breakers are on as well.

I would highly recommend connecting one set of the TC40's to the positive battery post on the battery switch on the battery side of the switch... This means that you can leave the entire DC system shut down and still use the TC40 to charge the batteries. Put the fuse for overload protection in the line, using something like a MaxiFuse block. :)

maybe its not clear in my drawing, but i do have it set up like you describe. i can turn the battery selector switch to "off" and it cuts off power to house, yet still charges my batteries.

also, i drew that red cable from tc40 to dc panel by mistake. its not really there. i was considering a battery eliminator at one point.

b
 
Jan 22, 2008
8,050
Beneteau 323 Annapolis MD
No I am not. I am suggesting that he may do to his battery what the battery manufacturer recommends in their manual. It is clear that you have not read that manual. --Tom.
Tom, I looked at every page of the battery charger manual, and waaay in the back they tell you "the rest of the story" that they should have stated up front. And that is ...(after telling us repeatedly to NOT do it) "it should be performed only if recommended by the battery manufacturer...". I don't know if that's the manufacturer of the battery Brobbins has, but I do yield and stand corrected due to the new info and section 5.5 you offered.

Still, though, he can not equalize unless and until he can fully charge the battery- which he will not do if he draws from the battery while trying to charge it. He does need to charge the battery for a day or more after- or before- every cruise.
 
Jan 1, 2009
371
Atlantic 42 Honolulu
Tom, I looked at every page of the battery charger manual, and waaay in the back they tell you "the rest of the story" that they should have stated up front. And that is ...(after telling us repeatedly to NOT do it) "it should be performed only if recommended by the battery manufacturer...". I don't know if that's the manufacturer of the battery Brobbins has, but I do yield and stand corrected due to the new info and section 5.5 you offered.

Still, though, he can not equalize unless and until he can fully charge the battery- which he will not do if he draws from the battery while trying to charge it. He does need to charge the battery for a day or more after- or before- every cruise.
Thanks for that. I take it kindly. :) You did manage to get my blood pressure up...

FWIW, in my post I did mention the chapter and section in the Lifeline battery manual. Ya could have gone right to them... :) I would look for the manual for the OP's batteries but he isn't telling us the brand(s). I have read manuals for three different AGM brands and they all have recommendations and procedures for equalizing. I speculate that Xantrex is trying to keep folks from equalizing their AGM's regularly as that will certainly damage them. Conditioning is a similar process but should only be used rarely. The Truecharge 40 manual at Xantrex.com says
Always
follow the battery manufacturer's instructions so batteries are properly
equalized.​
I think that makes sense.

I'm with you on needing to full charge before equalizing. I saw the bit on removing loads from the battery while charging in the Xantrex manual. I think the charger will eventually fully charge his battery as long as the load isn't greater than the capacity of the charger because it has a timing circuit for backup. But, you're right, it is designed to work w/out any loads. That's probably going to be true for any multi-stage charger that doesn't have a way to sense net amps. We could discuss energy monitors here, but I promised to restrain myself. ;)

Peace,

--Tom.
 

luvitt

.
Oct 30, 2008
297
na na na
all the research i have been doing over the past few days, leads me to believe that agm's should not be equalized. good maintenance should be performed to keep them optimal. They could explode if equalized (i have seen no evidence of this ever happening except in controlled experiments). Most equipment is not designed to do this, and the equipment that is designed for this is not trusted. I have read reports on how to do this (even with my truecharge 40), but after they reach a point, there seems to be no helping them. These batteries are designed to last 15-20 years, but it appears that they require a strict regimen of care. I did not have a manual when i acquired them and assumed they were just "batteries". They require a 100% charge every time they are depleted. They should not be deeply discharged. If they are abused, they will lose the capacity to hold a charge and degrade more and more after each use.

I have had my used WEST MARINE AGM Batteries for about 16 months and they are 3-4 years old. They have performed excellent on the hard until the past few weeks. Now when i board, i must turn on the charger to even play the stereo. That is deeply discharged. it was sudden. Basically, I am using my charger as a battery eliminator at this point.

I am going to be on my boat all day tomorrow. 6am - 8pm. I will bring my battery load tester. I will read the voltage when i arrive, turn off my battery switch to eliminate any loads, test again, turn on my truecharge 40, and test again to verify that the truecharge is outputting 40 amps (lately the 40amp light is lit on the charger every time i turn it on), charge for 8-14 hours and test again. my panel has built-in dc amp & volt meters (ac too) but i have not connected them yet. I will make a quick project out of connecting them.

If my batteries are not ruined, I will be sure to perform a strict charging regimen on them every time i use them. They are too expensive. I was ignorant.

I may try to equalize them on the 'wet cell' setting if they are bad, but i will not be aboard when i do it. btw, these batteries where aboard the boat when it took on water. but the specs say they can handle depths of 30' and still perform. i figure 2-3' of water was ok. i cleaned them and charged them a year and a half ago and they have been performing fine. although i only charge them 3-4 hours a day, anywhere from 3-6 days a week--kinda random, low charging time.

They also have a warranty that is prorated. maybe i should take advantage of it now, but they are $500 batteries at the end of the proration. I cant afford even a $1000 set for the discounted price of $500!

anybody want my warranty for a good price?!!

i dont know what to do if they are bad. should i continue with agm's? they cant take harsh abuse, but they hold a charge and deliver power when they are good. another concern, i plan on using wind and solar. what will that mean for my agm's? they require a full charge after each use, and i doubt my charging program will provide that. i cant imagine using them on the hook.

what other type of batteries should i consider? are there really any other choices besides deep cycle?

I plan on launching in june (figured out how to pay off the boatyard!), living aboard in the Charleston Harbor Marina w/ shorepower and leaving the charger on. In the fall i plan on cruising South. I ordered a cheap 640 watt wind generator off ebay, and i plan on 480 watts of samsung solar (3 x 160 watts panels). what would work best with this?

any comments are appreciated.

Brandon
 
Jan 1, 2009
371
Atlantic 42 Honolulu
There must be a manual!

Why not call West Marine and get the manuals for the batteries?

I have a suspicion that they might be re-branded Full River AGMs, but I base that only on the packaging and specs and could well be wrong. Still, if they don't have a manual you might ask if, perhaps, the Full River manual would be appropriate.

I didn't realize that your boat had been underwater. I'm sorry about that. It certainly complicates the situation.

Good luck!

--Tom.
 
Oct 22, 2008
3,502
- Telstar 28 Buzzards Bay
all the research i have been doing over the past few days, leads me to believe that agm's should not be equalized. good maintenance should be performed to keep them optimal. They could explode if equalized (i have seen no evidence of this ever happening except in controlled experiments). Most equipment is not designed to do this, and the equipment that is designed for this is not trusted. I have read reports on how to do this (even with my truecharge 40), but after they reach a point, there seems to be no helping them. These batteries are designed to last 15-20 years, but it appears that they require a strict regimen of care. I did not have a manual when i acquired them and assumed they were just "batteries". They require a 100% charge every time they are depleted. They should not be deeply discharged. If they are abused, they will lose the capacity to hold a charge and degrade more and more after each use.

I have had my used WEST MARINE AGM Batteries for about 16 months and they are 3-4 years old. They have performed excellent on the hard until the past few weeks. Now when i board, i must turn on the charger to even play the stereo. That is deeply discharged. it was sudden. Basically, I am using my charger as a battery eliminator at this point.

I am going to be on my boat all day tomorrow. 6am - 8pm. I will bring my battery load tester. I will read the voltage when i arrive, turn off my battery switch to eliminate any loads, test again, turn on my truecharge 40, and test again to verify that the truecharge is outputting 40 amps (lately the 40amp light is lit on the charger every time i turn it on), charge for 8-14 hours and test again. my panel has built-in dc amp & volt meters (ac too) but i have not connected them yet. I will make a quick project out of connecting them.
Voltage won't tell you JACK about the depth of discharge or the state of charge of the batteries. Putting a charger on them for any amount of time will leave a surface charge on the plates that is very misleading, and that surface charge can be there for a fairly long time. Maine Sail wrote a nice post on this that you really should read. Investing in a good battery monitor is probably a good idea. Something like a Victron BMV 600 would be an excellent idea.

If my batteries are not ruined, I will be sure to perform a strict charging regimen on them every time i use them. They are too expensive. I was ignorant.

I may try to equalize them on the 'wet cell' setting if they are bad, but i will not be aboard when i do it. btw, these batteries where aboard the boat when it took on water. but the specs say they can handle depths of 30' and still perform. i figure 2-3' of water was ok. i cleaned them and charged them a year and a half ago and they have been performing fine. although i only charge them 3-4 hours a day, anywhere from 3-6 days a week--kinda random, low charging time.

They also have a warranty that is prorated. maybe i should take advantage of it now, but they are $500 batteries at the end of the proration. I cant afford even a $1000 set for the discounted price of $500!

anybody want my warranty for a good price?!!

i dont know what to do if they are bad. should i continue with agm's? they cant take harsh abuse, but they hold a charge and deliver power when they are good. another concern, i plan on using wind and solar. what will that mean for my agm's? they require a full charge after each use, and i doubt my charging program will provide that. i cant imagine using them on the hook.

what other type of batteries should i consider? are there really any other choices besides deep cycle?

I plan on launching in june (figured out how to pay off the boatyard!), living aboard in the Charleston Harbor Marina w/ shorepower and leaving the charger on. In the fall i plan on cruising South. I ordered a cheap 640 watt wind generator off ebay, and i plan on 480 watts of samsung solar (3 x 160 watts panels). what would work best with this?

any comments are appreciated.

Brandon
As for what batteries to go with... wet cells are still the least expensive, and if properly maintained, ie. properly charged and checking the electrolyte levels, etc.., will last a long time. Given your future charging plans, I would highly recommend you get an outback MPPT charger, like the flexmax 60. This charger will maximize the charging efficiency of the solar panels, and it has the divert/dump solenoid option you'll probably need for the wind gen.

You can read a bit more about solar power on boats on my blog.
 

luvitt

.
Oct 30, 2008
297
na na na
Well, its been over 9 hours now. still charging. it charged at 40amps most of the day then switched to 20amps about 2.5 hours ago. now its flickering between 20-10amps. dont know how much longer i can hang out! no dc all day. I had to bring a boombox with me. I turned off the dc at the battery selector switch so there is no load. hope this works!
 
Jan 22, 2008
8,050
Beneteau 323 Annapolis MD
Brobins, Given the probable deep state of discharge, I think it would be safe to leave the charger on and let it run at float cycle this one time. You could have used DC all day without running the charger, then leave it on until you come back another day. I do that with my 40 the day before I go out again for a weekend- to top off the charge that it may have lost during the week.
 

luvitt

.
Oct 30, 2008
297
na na na
im worried about leaving the charger running. true, ive been here all day and nothing has gone wrong, but im scared! i wont be able to return until wednesday afternoon. so im gonna turn it off. hopefully i can just resume where i left off, i dont understand why i cant, but it sounds like i should fully charge it all at once. so when i return wednesday and turn it on, wont i be charging it all at once if you think about it? pop in wednesday, turn charger on, and fully charge it from whatever state it is in when i arrive?

anyway, one battery feels warm, the other cool. i dont understand why. its not hot, just warm. they are side by side.

thanks for the help.
 

luvitt

.
Oct 30, 2008
297
na na na
good thing i didnt leave it charging. right before i left, i turned everything off so it was real quiet, and i examined the batteries. the battery that felt warm on the sides actually felt hot on top. and it was making a bubbling/hissing sound.

i traced the noise to one particular cap and put my fingers over the vent holes and the noise stopped. my fingers were wet when i removed them. The other battery felt cool and no noise.

So, did i overcharge the venting battery? or is it bad and that is what is causing my problems? or is the other battery (the cool one) bad, and thus making the charger stay on and resulting in overheating the hot battery? i really think only one of them is bad.

screw it, im replacing them both this week. i finally came into a little $$ and im gonna try to launch the first week in June, so i want everything working right. hopefully i can replace them under warranty since they are still covered. i guess they will want to test them or something. then its gonna stink if only one is bad and i dont wanna mix a new & old battery. any ideas what i could do with one old/good battery? separate backup bank?
 
Jan 3, 2009
821
Marine Trader 34 Where Ever I am
A good battery hydrometer will determine if you have any bad cells but the battery needs to be charged to test it properly. If one battery is down more than the other it is going to charge at a different rate. One big problem I see is that if you continue your current practice with new batteries you will ruin them too. That is more likely what has happened to your current batteries. You can't just use them, partially charge them occasionally and expect them to last very long. You need good batteries and a complete and efficient charging system that can be left on to completely recharge the batteries after any discharging. Chuck
 
Oct 22, 2008
3,502
- Telstar 28 Buzzards Bay
These are AGMs, so a hydrometer isn't useful. :)

A good battery hydrometer will determine if you have any bad cells but the battery needs to be charged to test it properly. If one battery is down more than the other it is going to charge at a different rate. One big problem I see is that if you continue your current practice with new batteries you will ruin them too. That is more likely what has happened to your current batteries. You can't just use them, partially charge them occasionally and expect them to last very long. You need good batteries and a complete and efficient charging system that can be left on to completely recharge the batteries after any discharging. Chuck
Brobins—

It sounds like the bubbling battery has a bad cell in it.

As for the old battery, you could always use it as a starting battery. :)
 
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