again with the Walnut

[Billbeard]

Hi Every one

Ok so I thought I’d give this one more try.
I stated that my family was WOODWORKERS I said I was a cabinet maker so as not to bore you Ill start with my Great Grandfather was a shipwright as was his. My grandfather built everything from Barn’s to Icehouses , Single family homes to apartment buildings Quite a few in White Plains NY And Chatham NY. That are still standing well over 100 years later. My father home construction and after serving in wwII a boat builder then got into cabinetry and carving woodturning. I started out building bonefish boats in Florida then joined my father in the cabinetmaking business in 1979 after I left the service. My trade has been passed from generation to generation these are my bona fides. I don’t know sailing but I’m trying to learn and I am positive you could teach me plenty on the subject but I do know boats and I do know wood.
Unless you have more to say then you once saw a fence board or a window then you should not take on the air of a professional ------- I once saw a half a canoe used for a mailbox so what.
I don’t like to see any one asking an honest question believing that they are going to receive a knowledgeable answer misled by a guy who once installed a wood floor in his boat.
So I only have two questions for you.
*From what or where have you gained your knowledge?
*I ask you again for a few examples sighting competent authority’s that Walnut is suitable for exterior applications.
SHOW ME
Thanks Bill

 

[Ross]

Bill, if you have a long family history with boats and wood then you know the superstitions concerning walnut(aka coffin wood and boats). You know what you are familiar with and you know that very well. I have seen walnut use to fine effect in the interior finish of houses. I have also studied history and the materials that were used in rural areas when transportation was a very large factor in the choice of building material. As early as 1860 commercially made mill work was available for home builders in metropolitan areas. But in the rural areas timber was cut and sawn on the job site and they used what grew there. Just because you have never seen it done is no indication that it hasn't happened.

 

[Billbeard]

Ok so you can't show me

 

[Ross]

First you said that walnut rots as easily as poplar. Then you said that it is not suitable for exterior work But the book says that walnut takes and holds paint very well. Have you ever painted walnut for interior work? The people on the woodenboat forum have discussed the use of walnut for years and they use it without qualm for all parts of the boats. In boats it may be finished bright or it may be painted. I have used walnut for exterior parts of houses and have never been asked to replace it and the places that I have seen where I used it are still in good condition.
Carl Sagan said that a high school physics student knows more about the moon than the old man of the mountains who has looked at it for sixty years.
You may have worked wood for 32 years but given your lack of knowledge about the durability of walnut I suggest that you don't have much technical knowledge about wood just a very good practical knowledge of how to shape and join it.

 

[Witzend]

Nice work Bill!!I'm assuming from the pics you posted, not the native black walnut I have had experience with, is it english walnut, looks pretty light?
If you're talking about using the black walnut, again, if it were for say... hatch boards, (you're not really being specific where) they would go squirrelly on you. The problem is not so much rot, but movement. I have accidentally exposed work to water and it made a mess out of the flatness.

 

[Ross]

Any wood must be cut from straight logs for it to remain straight. Walnut will lay still once properly dried. But if you constantly wet a piece of wood and then dry it in the sun it will curl like a potato chip.

 

[Billbeard]

An example sighting competent authority’s that Walnut is suitable for exterior applications. An answer to this question is all I ask for.
How about I’ll lower the bar for you show me a major yacht manufacture that uses walnut on the exterior of a hull as either as a structural component or as a trim.
And by the way almost any material can be prepped to hold finish with the proper barrier coats primers and top coats you could encapsulate a dog terd. That will not make it a suitable candidate for the deck of a boat.

 

[Old Skool Neil]

I composed a reply to this subject last night but backed off choosing to stay out of the fray but here I am anyway, sometimes can't help myself. Hope I don't regret this.

What makes teak so ideal for use in the marine environment is the naturally high oil content in the grain. Any other species well suited for this environment should have a similar oilyness. It's why, until the introduction of epoxies, teak was so darned hard to glue. Anybody remember resourcinol (sp?)? That stuff was misery.

In this thread I'm not reading anyone referencing the relative oilyness of alternative species. Until someone does, the whole argument falls short for me.

 

[Billbeard]

Actually " Witzend" its pine I just wanted to show off a little. All the mill work is from my own molders and knives it’s a home library the fellow wanted Alder. I could not find it in sufficient lengths that were clear and in quantity for the job. Personally I would have preferred French oak or Black walnut but you got to give them what they want. And some place hiding on this!@#$%^ laptop there are pictures of a walnut job I did that I was kind of proud of and if I find them I’ll share. It was nice I got to work with my dad who carved the plinth blocks.

 

[Ross]

Everything that you could possibly want to know about black walnut but never took time to learn.
http://books.google.com/books?id=yH...nepage&q=exterior use of black walnut&f=false

 

[kpgraci]

my .02 to the OOP...go with chrome.

 

[KD3PC]

Ross wrote: "



Everything that you could possibly want to know about black walnut but never took time to learn.
http://books.google.com/books?id=yHw...walnut&f=false

sorry, but just because it is out there in print or on the net does not make it true...kind of like wiki's...not much fact most of time...and Ross....to use your link...just how many pipe organs, beds and book cases are outside...

I would guess that the state of the art has improved some since this book you cited was printed...but,

Having a few years of woodwork on cars and boats, I have to side with the other's on this one...

and by the way, wood is often cut to use the bends, knees and knots, as well as being straightened and book-paged and the like...again there is an art to this. The books can not show you or teach you...it is (or was) a hands on craft

walnut, even if properly cut, dried, sealed, finished and used...is not any where near a top choice for outside, or exposed, or marine environments..

 

[Ross]

Ross wrote: "



Everything that you could possibly want to know about black walnut but never took time to learn.
http://books.google.com/books?id=yHw...walnut&f=false

sorry, but just because it is out there in print or on the net does not make it true...kind of like wiki's...not much fact most of time...and Ross....to use your link...just how many pipe organs, beds and book cases are outside...

I would guess that the state of the art has improved some since this book you cited was printed...but,

Having a few years of woodwork on cars and boats, I have to side with the other's on this one...

and by the way, wood is often cut to use the bends, knees and knots, as well as being straightened and book-paged and the like...again there is an art to this. The books can not show you or teach you...it is (or was) a hands on craft

walnut, even if properly cut, dried, sealed, finished and used...is not any where near a top choice for outside, or exposed, or marine environments..

Read the whole document.
Walnut is not of course the best choice of wood for exterior trim on a boat but the OP has a supply that he can use and not spend money on some wood that is a little better. This thread was never about the best wood to use but was walnut usable for this purpose and that answer is an emphatic YES!
I have short patience with people who will skim read a document and cherry pick from it to support a point of view. If you don't find a US forest service bulletin credible then I can be of no use in this discussion.
Should you spend money to buy material for a project when you have suitable usable material on hand? Maybe you should if you have too much money in your pockets. In the Philippines they frame and sheath houses with lauan lumber we call it Philippine Mahogany. Is that the best building material for home building? Probably not but it grows there so they use it. Narrow minded people in this country may say that they never heard of building houses with lauan and to show them a credible builder that uses it.

Edit to add; How many fence posts and railroad ties have you seen inside?

 

[jibes138]

I replaced a rotted board on a picnic table once so I think I am qualified to give the definitive answer on this one. As the competent authority you are looking for I completely agree with Ross. In fact I am writing a text book on "Exterior Applications for Walnut." So far I have the title of the book completed.

 

[KD3PC]

OK, I'll play....

book from 1921...Yes it is by the forest service...but it may or may not be relevant to what is available today...IIRC, the forest service is and was part of the Dept of Agriculture, and by being so - No I do not trust them to be expert on anything. They allowed way too many silos and mills to blow up in the 70's before they would believe the people who knew....us workers...the dust was the culprit, but it took YEARS and many deaths for them to step up, kind of like the EPA is today, but that is another subject.

and to adress the OP statement, and it was not a "question" - Walnut is suitable for exterior applications.

Exterior, meaning outside exposure, then the answer, whether you like it or not...is NO it is not suitable for exterior applications...

It can be used, at the expense of having to replace it, any where you want...doesn't mean that is suitable.

Out here the fence posts are locust if old, pressure treated pine if not. Real railroad ties - it matters not what the base material is, because the creosote is part of the creation...new ones...tar and other less carcenogenic(sp) material but the base material is still what is available...and cheap, the last few I saw were pine of some sort..

And yes I have cut and split ties. I actually made my dock, pilings and pier out of old hi-line electrical poles, and creosoted cross braces - that was in the mid 70's and I still have the original deck, under frame and pilings. That was wood back then, not this fragile stuff we call wood now. Several hurricanes and near 40 years of weather have yet to move it...

I have installed miles of locust post, by post hole digger, by tractor auger, by pile driver, and recently by jetting them in the mud - which by the way is the sorriest way to set a pole or a piling...ever invented by man

Have yet to see a walnut fence post...number two reason for not seeing walnut fence post is that a lot of walnut is deadly to horses, and the reason for the fence is to keep the horse... so NO walnut is used for horse fencing poles or rails...nor are the shavings/chips/sawdust used - for the same reason..

Walnut is good for furniture and car interior and such, if as I posted previously has been cut, dried, or vice versa, prepared and finished correctly.

 

[Ross]

During colonial times it was the tree to have when building fine furniture, until the latter half of the 18th century, when black walnut was replaced by mahogany as the fashionable choice. As was common for the times, a house owned by Abe Lincoln was built with braced-frame oak construction but the exterior and interior trim, doors, siding, and shingles were black walnut.
The tree's durable wood has been used to make everything from sailing vessels to cricket bats. Over the centuries our love affair with its beautiful grain and lustrous appearance has inadvertently created a problem for the tree as a plant. For centuries we harvested only the biggest and best, leaving the weaker trees behind, which eventually seriously weakened the gene pool.
http://www.americanforests.org/productsandpubs/magazine/archives/2002summer/inprofile.php

 

[Billbeard]

Hey Ross

Every thing listed in what you are sighting is INTER:bang:IOR and this is going to be kind of a hollow win for you I know but your inability to support your statement and or concede is getting kind of monotonous so I quit you win.

 

[Ross]

Every thing listed in what you are sighting is INTER:bang:IOR and this is going to be kind of a hollow win for you I know but your inability to support your statement and or concede is getting kind of monotonous so I quit you win.

As was common for the times, a house owned by Abe Lincoln was built with braced-frame oak construction but the exterior and interior trim, doors, siding, and shingles were black walnut.

What part of siding and shingles are not exterior.

 

[jimmcgee]

First Walnut is fine for exterior use on boats, provided it's finished properly. The oils in teak help it stand up to UV and resist molds and/or fungus getting a start in the pores of the wood. That is why untreated teak will last longer in a damp enviornment. Treated walnut (varnish, cetol) should do just fine for exterior joinery.

Here's a link to an online source for the working properties of walnut on the the Hearne Hardwoods web site. Rick Hearne is a little 'ol supplier who keeps around 3 million board feet in stock and can saw individual boards up to 67" wide from logs. They're excerpting the book World Woods in Color by William Lincoln. This is the reference book used by every woodworker, furniture maker and wood wholesaler that I know. It is pretty much THE reference for wood properties.

According to that reference walnut is fine for exterior use, is resistant to biodegradation (rot), and has small movement in service (it doesn't warp).

Walnut naturally has a lot of variation in color (see picture below). To correct for that many vendors steam walnut to give it a more uniform brown color, and walnut tends to lighten with age and exposure to sunlight.

I'm guessing the reason you don't see a lot of walnut fencing and outdoor furniture has more to do with cost than anything else.

Hopefully that's considered a "good source". If I had a stack of walnut I'd use it.

Right now I'm making a set of companionway doors for my boat out of mahogany, in part because I have a bunch of boards in the right widths stacked in my shop and ready to go -- no cash out of pocket.

Jim

 

[Mike1956]

The weather must be really bad were you guys are at!