After survey return, would you ask for price reduction?

[rayhi]

This is my first boat (and being 61 years old probably my last). I am buying a 1982, 30 foot Cape Dory. The price is agreed on and a deposit given, but the sale is contingent on the survey. I would like to know if you would ask the seller for a further price reduction based on the return of the survey. The survey said all the fittings on the deck and rigging needs rebedding (resealing). The exhaust system has an exhaust leak in an elbow and the surveyor recommended replacing the exhaust system. He also said that all the tubing in the fuel system needs replacing because it’s not USCG A1 tubing.

I am capable and have the tools to fix all of these problems myself. It’s just that I do not have a clue in how much labor would be involved in rebedding of all of the fittings. I have worked with exhaust systems on cars before, so I am aware of the headaches with that part (bolts breaking in the manifold, heated or not, ect).

So, my question, “How much of a price reduction, would you ask for if you were buying this boat, or is this just expected repairs need when buying a used boat and not ask for a reduction”? I think I have a good surveyor and he still puts this boat at the higher end of the market for its overall condition.

 

[Stu Jackson]

DIY is certainly the way to go. Having anyone else do it will cost a LOT of $$$ and could well kill the sale. Since you say you're handy, if you think the price is fair, then close the deal and fix the stuff.

Rebedding chainplates and stanchions could well be considered "maintenance" items by the PO.

The exhaust riser could also be considered similarly. I had someone do the replacement on my boat in 2003 or so and it cost a whole days work by the yard guy, plus I bought the riser from my builder for $200 - $300, IIRC. A few years later I did it myself.

Fuel hoses: again, a simple "age" thing. Ask yourself: how are the REST of the hoses on the boat? I have 26 year old fuel hoses and am in the process of replacing them. I've replaced all the rest of the hoses and the HX over the years.

FWIW, I bought our 1986 boat in 1998. Except for that first riser and the standing rigging, I've done ALL the work on our boat. At least I know it's done properly, and I learn something new all the time. I was in my early 50s when we bought this boat, our third.

 

[obsailor]

If the survey uncovers a substantial defect that could not be seen before the survey then you have a right to ask for "survey consideration". The surveyor should be able to give you a ball park estimate; the amount you ask for (the seller can always say no) depends on how agressive you want to be. I would not ask for a reduction for ordinary maintenance items like rebedding. When you discuss the results (an e-mail is good for this) with the broker, list all the problems the surveyor found and then suggest your desired reduction; the owner can decide to split it, give it, or hold firm leaving you to decide if the boat is stil worth it. Good luck!

 

[higgs]

I would ask for a reduction for the riser but a lot depends on what the agreed upon price is. If your getting a great deal already, then you need to accept these types of problems. Cape Dory is a very respected boat and are off shore capable.

 

[Rich (P303)]

Go on Yacht World and see what they are asking for your boat. Your surveyor CAN pull up a spread sheet on what the median price is. If the deck has an issue... it can cost a ton of money to fix correctly (and time if you do it yourself). MaineSail has a great "how-to" in this forum" someplace. I would think an average for this boat in decent shape (without wet decks) would be around $35,000. I would ask for a reduction... all they can say is no. Not the economy to buy/sell a boat... it's a luxury. Good Luck.

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

Frankly, all of those issues (and more) are typical and predictable in any boat of that age and could easily be considered normal deterioration. What your surveyor points to is simple lack of maintenance by the previous owner. I would expect far more insidious issues to arise if you buy it and be more concerned with what he didn't find in making a purchase decision in ruling the transaction than just worrying about a price reduction

 

[Tim R.]

If these items were not disclosed on the original listing then you have every right to ask for a reduction regardless of comparables. It does not matter if it is a maintenance item or not(within reason). It then becomes a negotiation. Another thing the surveyor should be able to tell you is how long the boat has been listed.

I am sure others here will agree, get all you can off the price now because there will be other things the surveyor may have missed.

 

[fireman416]

It can't hurt to ask the seller for some consideration on the major items. I always look at it this way. If I had to re-sell the boat tommorow would I have a hard time doing so because of the faults listed and at the price I paid? If I answer yes to any of the questions then I need to rethink my price or walk away from the deal.

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

Most Brokers are only interested in selling boats. As for some of the sellers, they do not know what is wrong with the boat and I can cite many examples as I use to be a broker, new boat salesman, repairman and so forth. A survey is always recommended if you do not know the boat or owner. If something is found, you certainly and should ask for a price reduction. However, one word of caution. IF this is your first boat and even though you are a handy man, granted you can do some things, but I strongly suggest that you ask for guidance in some of the projects for example, the type of hoses on the fuel line to ask. Once when I listed a brokerage boat, I noted the replacement of the fuel line should be done and the buyer did it with a very cheap hose not suited for the fuel line. In so doing, the boat caught on fire and he tried to sue the seller. I redirected the buyer to my original brokerage listing and noted the suggestion of putting on new recommended fuel line and that ended that discussion.

Just be careful as you are looking a t a 30 plus year old boat and it could be more money in repairs that what you are bargining forover a periosd of time.. In addition, I would ask how much time will be spent on the boat and what your comfort level is. More room, air conditioning, etc. are just examples.

If you do find a broker who goes thru each brokerage boat for a few days repairing everything before listing the boat, then you probably have found a broker that you can pretty much trust. I pretty much did that with my brokerage boats and if it was going to be alot, I would disclose the issues and if the seller went along with it, he paid for the repairs before showing it. Never could keep much brokerage around.

crazy dave condon

 

[JK_Boston_Catalina310]

I would agree with others that these are mostly maintenance items, maybe with the exception of the fuel line.

The exhaust riser could be a simple item. Although when ever you are trying to take anything apart on a sailboat, multiply your estimate for time by 3 or 4. I rebuilt mine last year and it took more time to get the old one off then to rebuild the new one. I used simply black iron pipe from Home Depot. Just remember to use TuffGel or equivalenton the threads and next time it won't be as bad. Remember to be sure what you use is heat resistant for the application.

Your insurance company will likely require that the exhaust leak and fuel line be fixed before they will insure the boat.

On the deck hardware, did the surveyor look for moisture intrusion with a meter? As long as there is no moisture in the wood core, this should be a relatively simply project, again keeping in mind that getting things apart will always be harder than you think. I would recommend you read Mainesail's Musings here and his Compass Marine "How To's".

Good Luck and fair winds.

 

[sd1953]

I just bought a boat. After the survey, I did ask for a price reduction. I did not get as much of a reduction as I had asked for but the seller and I negotiated a lower price for the boat.
The worst that can happen is the seller says no. Would you be willing to pay the currently agreed price for the boat and do the maintenance?
If so you have nothing to lose. Get a ballpark price for the repairs and ask for the price to be reduced by that much. You will likely get some, but not all of it.
Be aware the seller may also opt to make the repairs himself, but be wary of that because his goal is to do it as quickly and as cheap as possible and close the deal. The repairs may not be to your standard.

 

[Maine Sail]

The only time a request for reduction would be appropriate is for non-noted/non-disclosed item the survey uncovered. Anything relating to the items he already told you about, IMHO, are off the table for re-negotiation because you've already made your offer knowing about them..

If you find new items, perhaps the items on the survey were not "disclosed" to you prior to making an offer, then you can always ask for a reduction and try to re-negotiate... He may say no, he may say yes...

 

[Richard Bryer]

I agree with Maine. And about that age thing- I bought our current boat at 61 and I plan to buy another!

 

[anchorclanker]

I 100% agree with Maine, do not ask for a reduction on already disclosed items. If they were NOT disclosed, if the boat was listed as "water ready", thats different, and you have every right to ask for a reduction, especially if they are asking full retail. Honestly, you would be foolish not to.

Also, use NADA boat values to make sure your within the proper price range, as well as search online for current ads for similar boats.

I would fax, mail, email the survey back to the broker, with a cover letter simply stating the surveyor found some undisclosed items, and wait for a response. Dont say anything, dont ask anything, let them come back to you. He who speaks first, loses. There are a lot of boats for sale right now, they may make a better offer than what you might suggest.

 

[CarlN]

If those are the major things found in the survey (and the surveyor is any good), the boat's in great shape for her age. You've picked out a great boat for your first.

That said, I'd ask for a small discount - $500-$1000. The owner is probably expecting it. The exhaust system (leak) has to be fixed right away. That's the sort of thing survey's are for.

The fuel line tubing may or may not be fine but your insurance company will want it replaced now that it is on the survey. You don't have to hurry on the re-bedding unless leaks are a real problem.

 

[FastOlson]

The known vs the unknown...

When we bought our present boat the survey found that the riser was (under the pretty painted surface) rusted through. The seller was not happy but paid the yard to replace it before the sale could go through. Same for a small attachment area problem with the glass under the rudder packing gland bolts.

In each situation these were problems that the owner was likely ignorant of, having never done their own maintenance. Once discovered by a thorough survey, they needed to be fixed before a sale (to me or anyone else) could go forward.

The boat did have several other much-more-visible issues, and as others have pointed out I knew about them when making my offer.

Loren

ps: DO get a thorough survey of boat and engine! Worth every penny.
pps: Cape Dory's are way cool boats with a good build reputation. Damned high "row away" factor, too!

 

[Deadline]

In sum

There's considerable agreement here to request a discount for the non-disclosed items. I agree you should be wary of the owner do the repairs himself, since he should have done so beforehand. Having said that, none of these repairs is that difficult. I would be more wary of the rigging, surprised the surveyor didn't find any problems.

 

[FastOlson]

There's considerable agreement here to request a discount for the non-disclosed items. I agree you should be wary of the owner do the repairs himself, since he should have done so beforehand. Having said that, none of these repairs is that difficult. I would be more wary of the rigging, surprised the surveyor didn't find any problems.

As for the rigging, given that the boat is an '82, either the standing rig has been replaced in the last decade or it needs replacing pronto. Even more so the life lines if they are equally old.

L

 

[rardiH36]

Your post attracted my attention because the circumstances are similar to mine when I bought my 1980 Hunter 36 five years ago. I had never owned a boat before, but as with you, because of a lifetime of DIY'ing just about everything and a garage full of tools, I had no doubt about being able to do most things around a boat. (And much like Stu's experience, in six years, the only professional expenses have been a rigging survey and when I had the boat hauled for bottom repaint (done-myself) I needed a professional hydraulic prop puller in order to change out my prop.)

My approach at my purchase survey was confirmation that nothing hidden or overlooked existed on the boat. Particularly something really major -- a "Deal Breaker". But also something else hidden and costly that might not kill the deal, but not right for the buyer to assume. Your surveyor's recommendation to re-bed deck fittings on a 30 year boat would be totally expected and hence not a re-pricing item. (I presume though that the surveyor did not find moisture/rot in the deck core?) In my case the surprise was the surveyor noticed that the engine was loose at the bolts connecting the engine mounts to the stringers. A socket wrench over a bolt reveal that the stringer hole was stripped. For this, I did suggest and obtained a repair allowance. In your case, without the survey, you could not reasonably have pre-identified the the exhaust elbow leak and non regulation fuel system tubing. And they are safety items. Correction will cost money. Just be reasonable with your request. For instance since you are DIY'ing, maybe the cost of materials plus an expense contingency factor. And using the words "repair allowance" rather than price reduction helps a seller come to terms.

My surveyor noted very few items that I had not pre-identified myself. I attribute this to my copy of Don Casey's "Inspecting the Aging Sailboat" .... designed for a typical sailboat buyer. This publication is contained in Casey's "Sailboat Maintenance Manual", a compilation of his separate books on deck and hull rigging, electrical, diesel, rigging, sail reapir, etc. A must have. Oh ... And this forum is an amazon DIY resource.

http://www.amazon.com/Caseys-Comple...1360081294&sr=8-2&keywords=sailboat+don+casey

 

[Lake Superior Sailor]

I think without a price on the boat no one can answer this question ! You may be paying next to nothing already! Besides I might want it.......Dale