Aft cleat for Jib Sheets?

[goharris]

I single hand my Catalina Capri 22 often. The installed clam cleats for the jib sheets are far enough forward so that I have to leave the tiller to manage them. I do have a tiller tender, but in heavier wind, it's not the best option.

I'm thinking about putting another set further aft. Has anyone run into a solution for this?

Thanks very much!!
G Harris

 

[Stu Jackson]

Clam cleats are notorious for intermittent holding. As such, they are a poor choice for this application. IIRC, my 1981 C22 #10496 came with horn cleats. Either that or a replaced the clams with horns. On y C25 I installed Winchers on the winches.

Good of you to question this.

 

[shemandr]

Cam, jam, clam - I think there's confusion about each. I would agree with Stu's post if it were about jam cleats which I don't trust except for the most temporary of applications. And searching for clam cleats I find that jam cleats come up most often and are called clam cleats. I don't see how "Clam" describes them. The line is "Jammed" into the cleat. I think that's a much better description.
Cam cleats are what I would want. They may be a bit slower to release but if the line is correctly between the cams it is likely to stay there. Put an eye on it and a stopper knot and I think you have a pretty good system.
I once had to take a crew member to the ER for getting stabbed by a horn cleat horn. It could have been a serious injury. Fortunately it wasn't. But the horn cleats in the cockpit went away.

 

[Hayden Watson]

Cam, jam, clam - I think there's confusion about each. I would agree with Stu's post if it were about jam cleats which I don't trust except for the most temporary of applications. And searching for clam cleats I find that jam cleats come up most often and are called clam cleats. I don't see how "Clam" describes them. The line is "Jammed" into the cleat. I think that's a much better description.
Cam cleats are what I would want. They may be a bit slower to release but if the line is correctly between the cams it is likely to stay there. Put an eye on it and a stopper knot and I think you have a pretty good system.
I once had to take a crew member to the ER for getting stabbed by a horn cleat horn. It could have been a serious injury. Fortunately it wasn't. But the horn cleats in the cockpit went away.

Both my Clipper 26 and Catalina 30 had jam cleats for the headsail sheets, and they never let loose when I did not want them to. Installation is very important to get the max holding. They need to be installed so that the jamming horn is towards the load and about parallel to the line. You wrap them around the standard horn, then the jamb horn and if the wind was up, I would take a second full turn. You want to pull the line tightly into the jamb horn on each turn. It is also important to use the correct range of line for the cleat. Too big and it will not jamb. Too small and it will slip.

 

[Richard19068]

Schaefer | SKU: SCH60-78
Schaefer Cleat, Jam, 4"(102mm), Silver


Schaefer | SKU: SCH70-17
Schaefer Fast Entry Cam Cleat Assembly, Medium

Sea Dog Clam Cleat


I'd use that jam Cleat or that Cam Cleat but not that Clam Cleat.

 

[Indysailor]

I may need a photo because I'm not quite understanding how you can even reach the winches to load/unload if you can't get to the cleats.

 

[OS2Dude]

I added aft cleats (Actual horned cleats, not jam or clam ones) to my 1985 Catalina 30 which I single handed all the time. Don't forget actual backing plates.
My Genoa sheets ran aft to the winches, and from there to the cleats. With practice I could toss the sheets on and off the winches from the wheel.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Cam, jam, clam - I think there's confusion about each. I would agree with Stu's post if it were about jam cleats

Please don't confuse what I meant. I do know the difference. Absent the time it would take to post photos of the different types here, anyone can go to WM or Defender websites and view each type.

Cam had jaws on springs.
Jam are horn cleats with one horn depressed - they are dangerous to use because they often make release impossible
Clam are the ones the PO mentioned - open plastic sides with grooves

Got it?

EDIT: I see Richard beat me to it!

 

[pgandw]

My Mariner 19 came equipped with swiveling cam cleats on the aft end of the cabin top for the working jib sheets (no winches). The advantages of the swiveling cam cleats (with strap) mounted where they are:

• easy release and tending from the skipper's position when single handing
• swiveling allows cross-sheeting of the jib sheet leads in the cockpit. The starboard sheet can be tended from the port seat, and vice versa. This allows me to stay on the windward (high) side of the boat while tending the jib, main, and tiller.

My boom vang originally came with a v-shaped jam on the lower block. This never held under any real tension. On the Mariner, the boom vang is critical because if the boom rises much during a gybe, the boom end will catch on the backstay. So I replaced the lower vang block with one that has a built-in cam cleat. A cam cleat that holds when I want it to, yet is easily released when needed. Just like my main sheet and jib sheets. I have even gone to miniature cam cleats for the Tiller Clutch (another essential single handing item) line ends.

just my experiences
Fred W
Stuart (ODay) Mariner 19 Sweet P

 

[fred1diver]

On my first sailboat, a dolphin 23 it was equipped with Spinlock PXR’s just flick the line up to release and flick down to lock, a few different models are available as well.

 

[goharris]

On my first sailboat, a dolphin 23 it was equipped with Spinlock PXR’s just flick the line up to release and flick down to lock, a few different models are available as well.

Huh, I've never worked with this type.... are they easy to feed into the cleat?

Thanks

 

[goharris]

Thank you everyone! Much helpful info. I think I'm going to go with clam cleats on the deck just aft of the traveler. I don't usually need the winches in the wind that I single hand in.

 

[jssailem]

I posted this for a Montgomery 17 owner looking for parts. It supports your idea of a cam-cleat located near your helm. I like the cam-cleat idea over the Spinlock clutch because there is less risk of the sheet becoming jammed when you get a gust, and you need to quickly release the sheet. They will fit nicely on your combing. Just be sure to locate them where you will not be sitting. Test the area a few times before you decide on the best spot. You will not want to sit down on the cam-cleat.

https://forums.sailboatowners.com/threads/self-tailing-winch-upgrade-for-montgomery-17.1249943734/post-1865366

 

[ShawnL]

We did this on our Catalina 22 with the cam cleats. I 3d printed small riser blocks for them to get to the height I wanted. We do a couple of turns on the winch and then into the cleat. I have a winch handle, but have never had to use it -- with the winds we're usually sailing in 3 turns on the winch and you can tension by hand.

 

[Joe]

Cam, jam, clam - I think there's confusion about each. ,,,,, I don't see how "Clam" describes them. The line is "Jammed" into the cleat. I think that's a much better description.

I think "Clam" is a trademarked name for the company that makes those particular cleats. Ronstan, for instance, calls their version a "vee" cleat.
Also, a "jam" cleat was the original name for a horn shaped cleat with one of the horns tapered underneath to allow "jamming" the sheet for quick holding. The cleat is located aft of the winch with jam end facing the winch, so the crew pulls the tail around the rear horn and pinches it under the forward one while still in grind mode. Makes for a quick set or release when trimming. Once trimmed the sheet's tail is looped around the rear horn to lock it down.

Cam cleats are what I would want. Put an eye on it and a stopper knot and I think you have a pretty good system.

That's my choice too. On my boat, which has the winches canted out a bit, the cam cleats are on risers to give the sheet a level exit from the drum. I do not use fairleads on the cam cleats. The sheets are entirely free to run when released from the winch. The open nature of it allows quick setting and release, no chance of a kinked line getting caught in the bulls eye fairlead.

 

[Project_Mayhem]

The Spinlocks would be ideal for the reason Fred posted. I had jam cleats, as pictured below, on my O'Day 25. A little time consuming but not bad. You get a better hold when you cross the line over to the opposite corner than if you simply loop it around. You usually don't need to do a complete "knot" like you'd do at a dock.

I love cam cleats but they can be a bear to release under load

 

[shemandr]

I don't think I would use Spinlock PXR's on sheets.
I've seen them used for halyards, especially on the mast to jump the halyards. Each jump up is locked in. When the sail is up and the halyard is tied off or stopped the PXR is opened so that the halyard can be dropped if necessary.
As for use for jib sheets I fear that the release wouldn't be fast enough. And there is the risk of hockels jamming the release. After all the sheet would be coming off several turns around the winch. Even more so on a dingy, when delayed release could have you standing on the centerboard.