Advice Please!!

[Swan]

We fell in love with the S2 8.5 and the surveyor delivered some bad news today the cockpit sole is wet like a sponge and much of it needs to be cut out and replaced... The boat has wheel steering and the pedestal has not been bedded in quite a while which allowed serious water intrusion. He said it could cost up to 6k to fix!! I wonder if his cost estimate was accurate for the repair. I want to negotiate with the sellers but question if the problem is too major to bother. He found areas in the deck that had some water but nothing as bad as the cockpit sole. HELP!!

 

[woodster]

We fell in love with the S2 8.5 and the surveyor delivered some bad news today the cockpit sole is wet like a sponge and much of it needs to be cut out and replaced... The boat has wheel steering and the pedestal has not been bedded in quite a while which allowed serious water intrusion. He said it could cost up to 6k to fix!! I wonder if his cost estimate was accurate for the repair. I want to negotiate with the sellers but question if the problem is too major to bother. He found areas in the deck that had some water but nothing as bad as the cockpit sole. HELP!!

sorry to hear that ......it may run even higher than the 6 grand the surveyer suggested .....some times when you open these problems up you find a lot more than you thought .....dont know your situation as to buying the boat but if you can stall buying you may find a better one that is ready to sail ....just go slow and search a lot...... some times these things lead you to better things in the long run....dont know if i would buy that one based on what you have said unless you are ready to do a lot of the work yourself..and have the tools to and knowledge to do so and can buy it for cheep..... VERY CHEEP........dont know if what i have said helps or not.....

regards

woody

 

[Anonymous 121765]

G,

There are three types of boats you can buy.

THE GOOD
THE BAD
& THE UGLY.

Most owners decide 2 years in advance that they will or have to sell their boat & most times that's when the upkeep & maintenance stop.

I find that most people make the mistake of looking at a cheaper price than what is a good vs bad boat. Let's say you buy this boat for $15,000. Lets say the surveyor is finding costly problems early on, and if so turn and walk away. If the price sounds too good to be true, it is.

Boats are a big investment. It is wiser to buy a well kept boat and spend alittle more, than pay out and be frustrated for the next couple of years instead of doing what you bought the boat for originally, SAILING.

Reading your question, I get the feeling you may be new at this, so practice patience, be smart, pay alittle more and buy a good boat, not someone elses problem.

If you hear the term "fixer upper", walk away pal.

CR

 

[mark_swart]

I have a friend here in Norfolk VA trying to sell one, I know he'd take quite a bit less than the asking price of $11,500:
http://www.norfolknavalsailing.org/S2_8.5_Sailboat_listinga.pdf

 

[BobM]

Good news and bad. You certainly have an item to use to negotiate a price break. Chances are the pedestal needs a paint job and the cables replaced anyway. Cables are almost never replaced and should be about every ten years.

Given that this is the cockpit sole it has a bunch of non skid I would try to confine my repair to that area. I would take my dremel vibratory saw and cut through the top layer just inside the non-skid by an inch or two to get an handle on how bad it is. Hopefully it is mostly around the pedestal. Lift off the fiberglass as one piece, remove rotted core, replace rotted core, replace sheet of fiberglass. Grind down about two inches all around the cut, seal it back up, then apply some kiwigrip non-skid paint in a color matching the existing non-skid color.

Sounds tough, but it is probably about 4-6 days of work (quote is consistent with this...5 days x 8 hours x 150 hour = 6K). One to pull the pedestal, one to cut everything up, one to put everything back, one to kiwigrip and one to put the pedestal back.

You can probably split the job up too. Pull/replace the pedestal yourselves and do the kiwigrip yourselves. Just pay the shop to do the fiberglass work, or reverse it if you are comfortable with the fiberglassing but not the mechanical stuff.

This stuff isn't atypical. I bought me boat knowing it has some wetness around the chain plates, mast step, etc...but all were not catastrophic except the damage to the bulkheads from the chainplate leaks. When faced with it, the owner offered to do the repair to my specifications. I had Peter write up what had to be done and had the owner photograph the whole process to document what was done. The owner did a great job. It is viewable in the knowledge resource.

On the other hand, my Wife and I doubled our boat budget to get our S2 in comparison to the first boats we looked at because she knew I didn't have time for a huge project.

However, I ended up with one anyway as I got some bad advice and decided to pull the shaft to replace the cutless bearing, which in hindsight was probably unnecessary. It was very good experience though and the whole experience proved to me that working on the boat is a part of owning it. The smaller the boat the less work there is, so I caution you that moving to 28 feet is a big commitment in terms of the complexity of the boat/systems and you will be faced with repairs.

If it helps, I suggest you post a list of the other little items the survey came up with so we can chime in on whether the whole laundry list is a problem.

Did you go with Peter for the survey? I hope whomever you used checked the fuel tank for leaks, if it aluminum, because that is a pretty common issue.

Bob

 

[Swan]

Good news and bad. You certainly have an item to use to negotiate a price break. Chances are the pedestal needs a paint job and the cables replaced anyway. Cables are almost never replaced and should be about every ten years.

Given that this is the cockpit sole it has a bunch of non skid I would try to confine my repair to that area. I would take my dremel vibratory saw and cut through the top layer just inside the non-skid by an inch or two to get an handle on how bad it is. Hopefully it is mostly around the pedestal. Lift off the fiberglass as one piece, remove rotted core, replace rotted core, replace sheet of fiberglass. Grind down about two inches all around the cut, seal it back up, then apply some kiwigrip non-skid paint in a color matching the existing non-skid color.

Sounds tough, but it is probably about 4-6 days of work (quote is consistent with this...5 days x 8 hours x 150 hour = 6K). One to pull the pedestal, one to cut everything up, one to put everything back, one to kiwigrip and one to put the pedestal back.

You can probably split the job up too. Pull/replace the pedestal yourselves and do the kiwigrip yourselves. Just pay the shop to do the fiberglass work, or reverse it if you are comfortable with the fiberglassing but not the mechanical stuff.

This stuff isn't atypical. I bought me boat knowing it has some wetness around the chain plates, mast step, etc...but all were not catastrophic except the damage to the bulkheads from the chainplate leaks. When faced with it, the owner offered to do the repair to my specifications. I had Peter write up what had to be done and had the owner photograph the whole process to document what was done. The owner did a great job. It is viewable in the knowledge resource.

On the other hand, my Wife and I doubled our boat budget to get our S2 in comparison to the first boats we looked at because she knew I didn't have time for a huge project.

However, I ended up with one anyway as I got some bad advice and decided to pull the shaft to replace the cutless bearing, which in hindsight was probably unnecessary. It was very good experience though and the whole experience proved to me that working on the boat is a part of owning it. The smaller the boat the less work there is, so I caution you that moving to 28 feet is a big commitment in terms of the complexity of the boat/systems and you will be faced with repairs.

If it helps, I suggest you post a list of the other little items the survey came up with so we can chime in on whether the whole laundry list is a problem.

Did you go with Peter for the survey? I hope whomever you used checked the fuel tank for leaks, if it aluminum, because that is a pretty common issue.

Bob

Thanks Bob for your info....learning more about this than we wanted to but it's important and informative.... We're not totally ready to walk way yet but that will depend on the reaction of the sellers to negotiation.

Looks like I will need to know whether the cockpit sole (core) is balsa or plywood as getting it off will be easier with the balsa, making the job a bit less expensive. Remember, it's a 1980 S2. I also like the idea of being able to "assist" in the repairs by doing some of it ourselves but would rather have it taken care of.

 

[BobM]

Another thing I learned is that it is tough to by "the boat" you want in the condition you want it in. I knew that I would keep my boat for a while. After looking at an O'day 28 and a Cape Dory Intrepid 30, we knew that we wanted a wheel and tee shaped cockpit so it is easier to mover around the wheel. My Wife didn't want to be climbing over the cockpit seats under sail. That shortened the list considerably.

I looked at the 79 with the soggy deck. Other than the deck I would have bought that boat I think. But I wanted a wheel because I can't sit sideways long as I used to do when I had a tiller and it needed one installed. It was just too much work. I looked at two others, they all needed work, but different work. One absolutely had to have the mast painted. The other turned out to be a walk away, because it had grounded hard and had damage at the hull/keel joint. That led me to conclude that I needed to shop for a different boat altogether.

I happened upon an S2 on line and it jogged my memory. I had been on one at a boat show in Providence in the mid eighties and liked it a lot. So I ended up looking at every 9.2A on the market at the time in New England...three boats. See what I mean about shopping for a particular type of boat rather than finding a boat that is well maintained? Plus people may maintain one thing well (the gleaming cabin sole) and neglect other things. Of the three boats one had gelcoat blisters (broker didn't tell me until I arrived and boat was priced like it was perfect...it was donated and subsequently auctioned), a second was neglected on the hard with the ports falling out...and mine...which was in decent condition, except for the bulkhead repair.

Even if I was just trying to find a 30 footer in bristol condition...these boats are thirty years old...finding one in bristol condition is like finding a needle in a haystack. You certainly would be in luck to find another 8.5 in better condition...different condition...but perhaps on average the same. Maybe that owner saved his cockpit floor but neglected the cabin sole...or the engine...or the rigging...or the sails...etc...etc...

Point is...every thirty year old boat...needs work. When you buy one boat over another you are just naming your poison.

If the 8.5 is the boat in New Bedford, it is already at a decent price. There are two sets of photos on yachtworld, but as you said the sole was just redone I will go with that set. The boat has a lot of recent work done too. There is a nice 1985...which has a slightly different interior...in NY. Inside it is nice, but the exterior teak needs work for $16500, vs. the $12900 for the New Bedford boat.

Unless the cockpit is structurally unsound, which is unlikely, get a price break (guy is probably unlikely go below $10K and that is $6K less than the $16K people seem to be asking for other 8.5's), buy it and sail it for a year or two and then have a go at the cockpit floor after you get used to having a bigger boat.

 

[Swan]

Another thing I learned is that it is tough to by "the boat" you want in the condition you want it in. I knew that I would keep my boat for a while. After looking at an O'day 28 and a Cape Dory Intrepid 30, we knew that we wanted a wheel and tee shaped cockpit so it is easier to mover around the wheel. My Wife didn't want to be climbing over the cockpit seats under sail. That shortened the list considerably.

I looked at the 79 with the soggy deck. Other than the deck I would have bought that boat I think. But I wanted a wheel because I can't sit sideways long as I used to do when I had a tiller and it needed one installed. It was just too much work. I looked at two others, they all needed work, but different work. One absolutely had to have the mast painted. The other turned out to be a walk away, because it had grounded hard and had damage at the hull/keel joint. That led me to conclude that I needed to shop for a different boat altogether.

I happened upon an S2 on line and it jogged my memory. I had been on one at a boat show in Providence in the mid eighties and liked it a lot. So I ended up looking at every 9.2A on the market at the time in New England...three boats. See what I mean about shopping for a particular type of boat rather than finding a boat that is well maintained? Plus people may maintain one thing well (the gleaming cabin sole) and neglect other things. Of the three boats one had gelcoat blisters (broker didn't tell me until I arrived and boat was priced like it was perfect...it was donated and subsequently auctioned), a second was neglected on the hard with the ports falling out...and mine...which was in decent condition, except for the bulkhead repair.

Even if I was just trying to find a 30 footer in bristol condition...these boats are thirty years old...finding one in bristol condition is like finding a needle in a haystack. You certainly would be in luck to find another 8.5 in better condition...different condition...but perhaps on average the same. Maybe that owner saved his cockpit floor but neglected the cabin sole...or the engine...or the rigging...or the sails...etc...etc...

Point is...every thirty year old boat...needs work. When you buy one boat over another you are just naming your poison.

If the 8.5 is the boat in New Bedford, it is already at a decent price. There are two sets of photos on yachtworld, but as you said the sole was just redone I will go with that set. The boat has a lot of recent work done too. There is a nice 1985...which has a slightly different interior...in NY. Inside it is nice, but the exterior teak needs work for $16500, vs. the $12900 for the New Bedford boat.

Unless the cockpit is structurally unsound, which is unlikely, get a price break (guy is probably unlikely go below $10K and that is $6K less than the $16K people seem to be asking for other 8.5's), buy it and sail it for a year or two and then have a go at the cockpit floor after you get used to having a bigger boat.

We still want to consider this S2 (new Bedford). right now we're waiting for info regarding whether the boat yard it's stored at will allow sub contractors. The cockpit is really mushy and I would worry about going a whole season with it in that condition. However, it may be sound enough to move it from new Bedford to Greenwich bay to get work done this season. Also, We could temporarily convert it to tiller steering to move it right?
Everything will depend on the sellers and their willingness to move low enough to keep us interested. We're going to be looking for quotes to present to the sellers from independent sub contractors so if anyone knows someone who does glass repair, please let me know.

I saw the 8.5 on line in NY and it looks good. I don't care for the cooktop position and the different cabin layout but that's minor. We'll keep our eye on that one too.

I'm not ignorant to the fact that we WILL be putting money and "muscle" into any boat we buy and I also understand that the age of the boats we look at are well "worn"

The new Bedford s2 photos are split with older cushions and newer cushions. The broker had sold it to the present owners so he had older photos. The bright work is in need of refinishing now so the photos are a tad deceiving but mainly the boat looks the same.

 

[texasprinter]

I have a 1980 S2 and the same problem. After I bought it I had a boat neighbor help me tow it to my marina. On the way as we were under a busy bridge in Kemah the steering pulley under the pedestal collapsed and I could no longer stay behind the tow boat. Also the Coast Guard was looking at us. Fortunately I remembered Where the emergency tiller was and connected it and it worked ok. I ended up pulling the pedestal and deciding to fix it or just go with a tiller. If yo notice they are actually set up better to use a tiller. I dug all the bad wood out of the floor and injected in epoxy to fix the floor. It is a hard job but doable. I put in all new pulley plate, pulleys and cables. There is not a lot of room to move around but after much cursing I got the job done.

 

[Swan]

I have a 1980 S2 and the same problem. After I bought it I had a boat neighbor help me tow it to my marina. On the way as we were under a busy bridge in Kemah the steering pulley under the pedestal collapsed and I could no longer stay behind the tow boat. Also the Coast Guard was looking at us. Fortunately I remembered Where the emergency tiller was and connected it and it worked ok. I ended up pulling the pedestal and deciding to fix it or just go with a tiller. If yo notice they are actually set up better to use a tiller. I dug all the bad wood out of the floor and injected in epoxy to fix the floor. It is a hard job but doable. I put in all new pulley plate, pulleys and cables. There is not a lot of room to move around but after much cursing I got the job done.

I'm assuming the 1980 S2 8.5 has the balsa as the core in the cockpit. Am I correct? Supposedly it will cost more if it is plywood but after reading other posts about balsa in the cabin top, I assume they used balsa in the cockpit too.