I have posted this on the Hunter-list as well as this one, my apologies to those of you who frequent both lists. I'm seriously thinking of moving up to a bigger boat from my tiny Hunter 18.5. The 18.5 is a nice little boat, but I want to spend more time on board during the summer months, and the cuddy cabin 18.5 is too small to do this comfortably. I have been looking at the Hunter 240 or 260, both of which are probably big enough to put up with me for several days or even perhaps a week at a time. They also seem to be priced right. My question is about the water ballast. Everything I read about these boats tells me that they are very tender, at least to a certain point, after which they become more stable. What are other problems with water ballast? I believe I understand the pros of water ballast -- ease of trailering, launching, beaching. What happens in a big blow, or an unexpected gust? Do they respond the same as a full keeled boat would (e.g., the older Hunter 23s with fixed winged keels). Does anyone have experience with both the H23 (fixed keel version) or similar and the H240 (water ballast version), and what are the comparisons? Also, does anyone know of a good resource, ie., book or magazine article, that discusses water ballasted boats objectively? Basically I'm looking at something in the 23 -25 foot range that I can afford and which will safely carry me around the great lakes when the weather is good. Any other suggestions will also be appreciated. Thanks for your help. Peter, S/V Katy Kaye ________________________________________________________________ --------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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John Scharer
Water Ballast vs. Fixed Keel
I have owned a Hunter 23 with a fixed keel and currently own a Hunter 260. Yes, a water ballast boat is in general more tender than a boat with a fixed keel. I think you need to ask yourself what is the majority of sailing you do. If if it is lakes and coastal sailing with wind generally less than 15 knots you will be fine. If it is more than that you will need to reduce sail. I have never felt not safe on our boat and we have been out in conditions where it was blowing a constant 20 knots with gusts in the 25-28 knot range. This happened about two months ago when we took "Zinfandel" to Charlotte Harbor, FL for a weeks vacation. We had only the main up which was reefed and we were on a run with waves of 3 to 5 feet following us. Our speed was in the 6.5 knot range and it hit as high as 7.2 when we were surfing the waves (talk about excitement). Needless to say these were conditions you would not normally go out in. But we set up the boat for the conditions and everything was fine. We have taken the boat to Florida 3 times and the Cheaspeake Bay one time with another adventure planned for later this summer. I believe if you understand the boat and how much sail you can have up given the conditons you will be fine. The major advantages of trailorsailing opens up a whole new world to you.
I have owned a Hunter 23 with a fixed keel and currently own a Hunter 260. Yes, a water ballast boat is in general more tender than a boat with a fixed keel. I think you need to ask yourself what is the majority of sailing you do. If if it is lakes and coastal sailing with wind generally less than 15 knots you will be fine. If it is more than that you will need to reduce sail. I have never felt not safe on our boat and we have been out in conditions where it was blowing a constant 20 knots with gusts in the 25-28 knot range. This happened about two months ago when we took "Zinfandel" to Charlotte Harbor, FL for a weeks vacation. We had only the main up which was reefed and we were on a run with waves of 3 to 5 feet following us. Our speed was in the 6.5 knot range and it hit as high as 7.2 when we were surfing the waves (talk about excitement). Needless to say these were conditions you would not normally go out in. But we set up the boat for the conditions and everything was fine. We have taken the boat to Florida 3 times and the Cheaspeake Bay one time with another adventure planned for later this summer. I believe if you understand the boat and how much sail you can have up given the conditons you will be fine. The major advantages of trailorsailing opens up a whole new world to you.
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Mike
I agree with John
I have owned two water ballaast boats, both Hunters. They do have a quick initial heel, but then firm up. I sail on Lake Michigan, where there is always lots of wind. We do reef around 12-15 knots, which is not out of line with most B & R Rig Hunters. The flip side, is the boat moves very well in light air, I do all my own launching, maintenance and storage. Price what it would cost to haul a 28 foot boat and store it at a marina. That adds up to a lot of extra goodies for the boat. You can actually use it. Try making a passage from Davenport, IA to Bayfield, WI. With a fixed keel boat, it would take all summer. With my 26, it can be done in 10 hours. Mike Pajewski H26 "Loon"
I have owned two water ballaast boats, both Hunters. They do have a quick initial heel, but then firm up. I sail on Lake Michigan, where there is always lots of wind. We do reef around 12-15 knots, which is not out of line with most B & R Rig Hunters. The flip side, is the boat moves very well in light air, I do all my own launching, maintenance and storage. Price what it would cost to haul a 28 foot boat and store it at a marina. That adds up to a lot of extra goodies for the boat. You can actually use it. Try making a passage from Davenport, IA to Bayfield, WI. With a fixed keel boat, it would take all summer. With my 26, it can be done in 10 hours. Mike Pajewski H26 "Loon"
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Dale Wile
Log on to...
Trailersailor.com and read the article on "Sailboat Stability." The discussion about water-balasted boats is interesting and reassuring. Yes, the water-balasted Hunters are tender, as I learned early in 1993 when I bought my 23.5 (forerunner of the 24), but you learn quickly how to compensate. Dale Wile Sandpoint, Idaho
Trailersailor.com and read the article on "Sailboat Stability." The discussion about water-balasted boats is interesting and reassuring. Yes, the water-balasted Hunters are tender, as I learned early in 1993 when I bought my 23.5 (forerunner of the 24), but you learn quickly how to compensate. Dale Wile Sandpoint, Idaho
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Ray
The beauty of a W/B boat and trailer is that.....
come winter you take your boat home and can work on it comfortably. No storage, craining or tie up fees. That can amount to the purchase price of the boat in its life time. I throw a heater in the cabin, tarp the boat using the mast (with supports)and do my "on the hard" work all winter. I'm ready to go as soon as the ice is gone and I've not suffered withdrawl pains. Besides, it's a heck of a good place to watch football.
come winter you take your boat home and can work on it comfortably. No storage, craining or tie up fees. That can amount to the purchase price of the boat in its life time. I throw a heater in the cabin, tarp the boat using the mast (with supports)and do my "on the hard" work all winter. I'm ready to go as soon as the ice is gone and I've not suffered withdrawl pains. Besides, it's a heck of a good place to watch football.
Water-ballast racing?
How do rating rules like PHRF deal with water ballast? I mean, what is the theory behind considering it in the formula? In theory the boat's weight distribution, draught, displacement, righting moment and even planing ability could all be altered on the fly (i.e., during a race). How on earth can they trust a WB boat to give it a fixed rating? If anyone knows this I'd really like to comprehend it myself. JC
How do rating rules like PHRF deal with water ballast? I mean, what is the theory behind considering it in the formula? In theory the boat's weight distribution, draught, displacement, righting moment and even planing ability could all be altered on the fly (i.e., during a race). How on earth can they trust a WB boat to give it a fixed rating? If anyone knows this I'd really like to comprehend it myself. JC
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Brian
Also owned both...
the Hunter 23 with a fixed wing keel and currently own a Hunter 240. The scream factor is higher with the 240, ie, I get many more screams out of my daughters with the 240 than I did with the 23. The 23 was much slower to heel - its that initial fast heeling effect the 240 has that gets the kids white knuckling the rails or jumping down below, but I've showed them many times that it stops heeling very soon after and just starts moving out. My wife and I are very comfortable with the heeling characteristics of the 240 John had some real good points. The 240 is a good inland lake boat if you know when to reef and/or how to depower in consistent heavy winds. I have no idea how it would react in heavy wind with ocean waves to boot, but I personally wouldn't want the 240 if I was a coastal sailor, esp with the kids as their enjoyment and feeling of safety is important too. I'd up the size to 260 or higher in this case. When its moderate and puffy as it usually is here in N Texas, you just have to work into the puffs slowly as they first hit the boat to avoid getting knocked over too hard, then power into the tail end of the puff. I did a bit of reefed sailing this weekend, and had very little trouble beating into heavy weather with both main and jib reefed. But, even reefed in, the puffs would still heel it over, just not as sustained. When its light to moderate, the 240 is a real casual ride - great light air boat. I have found it to be sensitive to imbalances in loading - if we are motoring or anchored and too many gang up on 1 side, it will heel noticeably to that side - an annoyance more than anything else. I have never felt not safe on our boat either. I've had to motor thru and anchor out a few storms and had no trouble with waves or leaking. Usually when it starts to look bad I find a protected cove and ride it out. This weekend we were on a sleepover and saw a storm approaching that looked like it would give an anchor some trouble, so we headed to a known sandy beach in a cove, backed the stern into the beach until the keel was in the sand, tied it off with 3 lines to some trees on the shore so that the bow was into the wind, got inside and held on. It was blowing a constant 20 knots with extended gale gusts for a good hour and the sound effects from the whistling and the tree limbs cracking in the woods was a bit scary, but the boat stayed water tight and just rocked around in the waves a bit. By the way, this is my standard beaching method (backing in). I've found a few sandy spots that I always use. Get the keel up, put it in reverse until you get some speed, kill the engine and lift the rudder and coast onto the beach - its usually a step off the open transom onto dry sand, if the slope is at least 10 degrees. Sometimes I wish I had it in a slip but I've do a lot of tinkering with the boat and this is a plus when you have it close to all your tools at home. I like being able to check out the different lakes also - its like having an RV that you can sail, swim and fish off of. I feared trailering distances and mast stepping the h23 - I felt the trailor was under rated, the WB is less weight to haul around, and comes with an excellent gin pole stepping system with support struts - I can single handed setup, launch, sail, dock, etc the WB with very little trouble. People give me a weird sanity questioning look and comments when they see just me and my 8 year old handling this thing around the dock, but its really very casual. I'd go for it, learn the boat, add the trick gadgets that make setting up/tearing down, sailing, and motoring easier/faster, and enjoy your WB boat. Brian
the Hunter 23 with a fixed wing keel and currently own a Hunter 240. The scream factor is higher with the 240, ie, I get many more screams out of my daughters with the 240 than I did with the 23. The 23 was much slower to heel - its that initial fast heeling effect the 240 has that gets the kids white knuckling the rails or jumping down below, but I've showed them many times that it stops heeling very soon after and just starts moving out. My wife and I are very comfortable with the heeling characteristics of the 240 John had some real good points. The 240 is a good inland lake boat if you know when to reef and/or how to depower in consistent heavy winds. I have no idea how it would react in heavy wind with ocean waves to boot, but I personally wouldn't want the 240 if I was a coastal sailor, esp with the kids as their enjoyment and feeling of safety is important too. I'd up the size to 260 or higher in this case. When its moderate and puffy as it usually is here in N Texas, you just have to work into the puffs slowly as they first hit the boat to avoid getting knocked over too hard, then power into the tail end of the puff. I did a bit of reefed sailing this weekend, and had very little trouble beating into heavy weather with both main and jib reefed. But, even reefed in, the puffs would still heel it over, just not as sustained. When its light to moderate, the 240 is a real casual ride - great light air boat. I have found it to be sensitive to imbalances in loading - if we are motoring or anchored and too many gang up on 1 side, it will heel noticeably to that side - an annoyance more than anything else. I have never felt not safe on our boat either. I've had to motor thru and anchor out a few storms and had no trouble with waves or leaking. Usually when it starts to look bad I find a protected cove and ride it out. This weekend we were on a sleepover and saw a storm approaching that looked like it would give an anchor some trouble, so we headed to a known sandy beach in a cove, backed the stern into the beach until the keel was in the sand, tied it off with 3 lines to some trees on the shore so that the bow was into the wind, got inside and held on. It was blowing a constant 20 knots with extended gale gusts for a good hour and the sound effects from the whistling and the tree limbs cracking in the woods was a bit scary, but the boat stayed water tight and just rocked around in the waves a bit. By the way, this is my standard beaching method (backing in). I've found a few sandy spots that I always use. Get the keel up, put it in reverse until you get some speed, kill the engine and lift the rudder and coast onto the beach - its usually a step off the open transom onto dry sand, if the slope is at least 10 degrees. Sometimes I wish I had it in a slip but I've do a lot of tinkering with the boat and this is a plus when you have it close to all your tools at home. I like being able to check out the different lakes also - its like having an RV that you can sail, swim and fish off of. I feared trailering distances and mast stepping the h23 - I felt the trailor was under rated, the WB is less weight to haul around, and comes with an excellent gin pole stepping system with support struts - I can single handed setup, launch, sail, dock, etc the WB with very little trouble. People give me a weird sanity questioning look and comments when they see just me and my 8 year old handling this thing around the dock, but its really very casual. I'd go for it, learn the boat, add the trick gadgets that make setting up/tearing down, sailing, and motoring easier/faster, and enjoy your WB boat. Brian
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