Adding Shorepower for first time ??

[MrBee]

Good day everyone. I'm a watcher and reading but don't post very often.
We have a 1975 Irwin 10/4 that has never had Shore power hookup so we are starting from scratch. I intend to get the shore hook up done first then over the summer complete a rewire of the 12v system including the breaker panel, switches, bat switch. will be installing the Blue sea's System #7650 Bat. switch with charge controller.
Back to the shore power.... I have the SS 30amp power inlet and have the power cords on the way. These are some of the other items I intend to use and need to know this is the ok way to do it. I'm looking at the Blue Sea's 8027 main breaker panel. This has 30amp pre-installed with 6 more positions. We would be fine with 3 switches but I am leaning toward the 6 because I intend to use 2 when I install a second 30amp breaker to hook my inverter to. Am I off on this part ? Is this the way it's done ? Wire the inverter directly to the Panel so I will be able to switch off the shore power when we leave the dock and switch on the inverter if we need 110.
From there I plan to install 2 - 3 110v outlets. Does each outlet need it's own 15am breaker or can I put 2 on a single then the 3rd one on it's own. One outlet - portside cabin, one in galley area, and one in V birth area.
I am also looking at Chargers and am leaning toward the Guest 2608A. It is a Single bank 6amp charger. We have 2 banks but since we will have the charge controller I'm thinking that hooking to the one bank will charge both if needed. Also of note is that we have gone without shore power and any kind of maintenance charging while not at the boat and have never had dead batteries except when one has gone bad. Where i intend to install the shore power inlet and distance to the panel will be less than 10', think it's about 6' but haven't measured. The only thing we will use the shore power for would be a room fan, laptop, maybe a small flat panel tv on occasion. Also a good reason for the extra breakers on the panel would be IF we ever wanted to install Refrigeration. I really doubt it but I would rather have a few extra now than need another panel later.

Thanks for any suggestions .
We are collecting all the pieces of the puzzle now and will start the installs in May.
I will be searching on this site for info and tips on the install of the 12v system but any suggestions now would be great. Not rewiring everything, just from the Batt switch and Controller to a new 12v panel. Everything that is there now is basically factory system from 1975.

Thanks
Brian
Anybody on here in the middle river area ? We are moving our boat to Stanbury Yacht basin and expect to be there in May.

 

[Steve Dion]

I would be sure to get a book on how-to wire such a system. You want to be sure that you have proper grounds for both your AC & DC.

I do not think that a 6 amp charger is adequate and the Guest until have not have a very good reputation. Check with the charger mfg for proper sizing for your current and/or potential battery bank size. You do not want it to be too large or to small.

You also want to be sure that you purchase a smart charger that will provide 3 stage charging.

You may want to look up some info in the archives for some more information before you start purchasing parts.

 

[Old Skool Neil]

Here are a few comments, certainly not a complete treatment:

1. Main breaker must be within 10 feet of the shore power inlet. That's 10 feet of wire, not 10 feet as the mosquito flies.
2. Minimum #10 wire from the inlet to the main breaker.
3. Main breaker must break both the hot and neutral. Ground is never switched.
4. The inverter should be tied in via a proper transfer switch. That way the inverter 120V and the shore power 120V can never be connected together.
5. Ground fault protection.

I second the advice to get a good how-to book. Improper work in this area can be dangerous.

 

[MrBee]

Old skool, doe's having the inverter run to it's own breaker on the panel and a safety switch setup so that only one of the two can be in the on position at a time qualify as a transfer switch ?
I will be reading through my electrical book but its on the boat right now.

Thanks

 

[Ron20324]

BEE, there is a lockout slider you can screw on the front of the breaker panel. I have my 2 main AC breakers, then the batt charger breaker, then 2 breakers for the inverter to power the panel. The slide lockout covers the main and charger breakers so they can not be turned on when the inverter is on. Slide down, I can use the main and charger, but covers the inverters. You do not need the $$$ transfer switch this way. You DO NOT want to run the inverter and charger at the same time!

 

[MrBee]

My house bank is 2 batteries at 200 amp hours.
I know that it may be "the best" to have a high end smart charger, but is it really necessary when i consider that this boat is mainly used for day sails and a few overnight or several nights away trips a year. Because we have never had problems with lack of battery power when not having shore power, why would I "Need" to spend several hundred $ just to make sure the batteries are charged ? Even if we don't have a charge system for at the dock i know from experience for the way we use our boat that we would not show up to dead batteries. Is it better to have no charger than to have an inexpensive set up? I do realize that the charger needs to know when to stop so it doesn't over charge. What is a good brand name to look for ? At this point i would rather have none than spend over $100.oo on one. Even when using our Wheel pilot all day we have never run the batteries down more than about 75% . I don't expect the batteries to be vary low. Really just wanted an inexpensive way to keep them topped off.

Thanks

 

[MrBee]

Thanks Ron,
Thats what i must have been thinking of, the Slide cover. I guess i should order that the same time I order the panel and Extra breaker. i didn't think of a safety cover for the charger but I guess that would be best also.

 

[Steve Dion]

If you purchase a junk charger to begin with and need to replace it after a year or so I don't think there will be any savings and chances are you will also destroy your batteries.

Your project is NOT an inexpensive undertaking. Copper wire is very expensive so you want to be sure that it is all properly sized. Buring down the dock and paying for all of the boats that you destroy in the process can bankrupt you if you do not have proper coverage.

I suggest you try to do this only once. Good battery maintenance can save you a lot of money over the years considering that new 100 amp deep cycle batteries are now approaching $100 ea.

And I would agree that you may be better off without this system if you are going cheap.

By the way, some of the inverters can be wired directly through the AC circuit and the transfer switch is built into the inverter. Check out the Xantrex units. Just remember that the inversion process consumes a lot of DC amps.

 

[Joe]

Why do you need an inverter? What kind of 110 stuff do you run when you're out sailing? I'd invest in at least a 10 amp 3 stage smart charger before I tied in an inverter.

 

[MrBee]

Steve, i know the shore power install is not an inexpensive undertaking and believe you me we plan to do it right the first time. The battery charge system would be secondary and we are not in a hurry for that so it would not be done till mid season anyway.
Our priorities are, first the Shore power system installed then the 12v system redo . If we run low on boat stuff funds we will way till later on the charge system set up.

Joe, we use an inverter sometimes on the hook to run the Laptop, and tv if we have internet access. we already have an inverter but i'm not sure its what we would want to hook directly into the Panel. It's a basic modified sine wave with two 110 outlets. Hooking an inverter into the panel system can wait also. We can continue to use it the way we do now.

Brian

 

[Bill Roosa]

Other AC issues

Do you plan on upgrading to electric hot water? Air conditioning? this brings up the topic of shore power vs inverter capability. when on shore power you have 30 amps avalable. when on the inverter you may have the same capability but you would never want to use it that way. heating your water with battery power via inverter is never a good idea. Neither is running the battery charger off of battery power (duahhh).
SO
you need a "transfer switch" that prevents your brouther-in law- from doing those kinds of things. The slider bar version that locks out one source or the other can be made to work but there is some behind the panel work on the buss bars that needs to happen. It is much easier and cheaper to begin with the end in mind on this topic than to upgrade later and replace everything to make it work right.

Be very mindful of the inverter grounding. This is a VERY IMORTANT safety point. Make sure you get it up to code.

 

[Steve Dion]

If you are using one of the small inverters that would plug into the cigarette lighters this is not an issue (other than consumption).

I was under the impression you were looking at a built in one. These can be installed to take care of your charging needs and provide DC/AC inverting in a single box.

 

[Chuckbear]

We just did a couple of electrical panel installs and posted them on our Beach House site. Have a look and it might give you some ideas.........
Replacing the main panel.
Install a sub panel.
Chuck

 

[Ron20324]

From there I plan to install 2 - 3 110v outlets. Does each outlet need it's own 15am breaker or can I put 2 on a single then the 3rd one on it's own.

My B32 came with 6 outlets all on one 15-amp breaker, which was silly since we had 30-amp shore power. Use at least 2 breakers to take advantage of the 30-amp shore power, though one breaker per outlet would be nice. GFCI's, of course. I added an outlet in the salon table to plug the coffee pot in, out of the way of the galley cooking.

 

[MrBee]

Steve, the inverter we use is not that small that it plugs into a lighter outlet. It is screwed down to a panel and wired to the batteries. It has it's own receptacles instead of a place to hard wire direct to a panel. I'm sure it can be done but when we are ready I will probably just go with a new inverter. something like you mention.

Bill, I am trying to think of future items. Hot water is a possibility as is a/c for when at the dock. This is why i chose a panel that has one 30amp installed for the shore hookup plus another 6 for later. Maybe i need a few more switches ,,,,,

Chuckbear, I have looked through your site, very nice. I need to go back an read some more, Thanks

Ron, are you saying that they had all those outlets on a single 15amp breaker ?

The outlets that i have seen for sale have been 15 amp outlets ? would it be best to use 30amp breakers for the outlets rather than 15amp ?
I was thinking that a single 15 amp breaker for 2 of the outlets then another breaker for the other outlet.

 

[bria46]

I used a Blue Sea Systems AC distribution Panel. Part number 8101

 

[Ron20324]

Ron, are you saying that they had all those outlets on a single 15amp breaker ? The outlets that i have seen for sale have been 15 amp outlets ? would it be best to use 30amp breakers for the outlets rather than 15amp ?
I was thinking that a single 15 amp breaker for 2 of the outlets then another breaker for the other outlet.

Yes, all 6 outlets were fed by two wires off one breaker. I just took one wire off and put it on a new breaker I added.... If you used 30-amp breakers, you would have to use "30-amp" wire- 10 guage probably. Stay with 15 or 20 amp breakers and 14 or 12 wire. You can daisy-chain outlets.

 

[MrBee]

bria46, that looks like the same panel I intend to get, except it's a different #.

Something i haven't asked about is a Galvanic isolator. Those things are expensive, but I'm guessing it's something i should have. We have never had an issue with Electrolysis but that could be because there was no shore power on the pier we were on.

 

[MrBee]

Thanks Ron, i figured, but didn't know for sure, that daisy chaining would be fine.
i really need to get down to our boat and get the book off.

Thanks all

 

[Old Skool Neil]

Others have explained the transfer switch concept as well as I could. Your plan to distribute the inverter power through the AC panel is the reason for it. With both shore power and inverter using the same panel, as long as switching to one locks out the other you're good.