Any advice or experience adding a solent sail or a staysail to a Hunter B&R rig. I own a Hunter 34 with a 150 Genoa. She sails well with the foresail fully deployed and can handle higher winds to a point using 1st and 2nd reefed main. But, if I need to partially furl the RF Genoa, she is slow and points poorly. My thought is that taking in the RF head sail throws the center of effort out of whack and might be fixed by using a smaller sail mounted closer to the mast instead.
Adding a solent sail or staysail to a B&R rig
- Thread starter Peter Preusch
- Start date
My PO installed a spinnaker pole downhaul point just forward of the front hatch. He also had a lightweight staysail that can be set inside the genoa in light air. The deck is not reinforced sufficiently for large loads on that pole downhaul point.. I have set the staysail in light air, using that point for the tack attachment. I have always thought that a deck reinforcement could be rigged from under the deck to the large pan in the vee berth to let this work for a heavy air small sail.. (storm staysail?) A piece of dynema could be rigged so that it could be removed when using the vee berth.. You can see from the vee berth picture where the liner was cut in order to put in the reinforcing plate .. I haven't done the reinforcement..
Thanks for this suggestion. Where on the mast did the staysail attach (upper, lower spreaders, or elsewhere)? Is there any need for additional backstays?
I fly the light air sail from the pole uphaul (topping lift) which exits the mast just below the upper spreaders.. I don't think there would be a problem in the light air, but .. if set in heavier air, the spin halyard or the other genoa halyard would probably be better to avoid pumping.. Because of the natural bow in the mast, if the heavy air staysail were to be set in that same place on the mast, I think running backstays might be necessary. (mounted at the same level as the halyard attachment..). I have not done any load calculations, but that is kinda my gut feel.. If set from the spin halyard or a jib halyard , there'd be no problem.
Thanks again. I had also thought of using the pole topping lift as the upper end staysail attachment. I'm wondering if I use a wired luff on the sail, whether I can just raise the sail using the pole topping lift and do without a separate stay. I could use the spinnaker halyard to raise a sail on a temporarily fixed stay, but would this accomplish anything vs tensioning the wired luff? I figured some kind of running back stays would be necessary. Options would be to attach these to the genoa tracks or the toe rails. Any thoughts on that? I''ve also wondered if there is a way to rig a bridle of some kind to serve as the tack attachment point.
My light air staysail has a wire luff; I don’t have an extra stay . It sets well . The aft toenails would be fine for runners attachment.
a bridle could be made to work for the tack. First thought is running Dynema between toe rails with a hitch in the middle to attach the tack shackle. That would raise the tack a foot or so.
a bridle could be made to work for the tack. First thought is running Dynema between toe rails with a hitch in the middle to attach the tack shackle. That would raise the tack a foot or so.
My thoughts are based on my understanding of Arvil Gentry’s innovative computer analysis and wind tunnel studies of sails.
When you roll up that 150 Genoa you destroy the wind adhesion along the luff. You disturb the air flow creating drag. If you want to go fast add to your sail options with a 135 and or a 100 jib. You’ll sail up wind faster and likely do it at a lower cost then trying to make your sloop rig into a cutter.
Talk out the idea with a knowledgeable loft. I’d suggest North Sail. They be really helpful.
Fellow sailers should regard the following as basically bar talk:
My understanding of the OP is that the smaller sail would be set in higher winds as an alternative to rolling the 150. It would then likely a heavier material cut pretty flat. I like the idea for someone who feels that they need the 150 and a better alternative to RR. This would be primarily an up wind sail - going downwind with the rolled 150 would not impede performance. I would also limit the height of the sail to reduce heeling moment. At this point I'm imagining a pretty small sail.
I've read about sails with a detachable tack fitting. That and a Dynema cord sewn into the luff would be sufficient for a "Stay", I think. And would make storing the sail while not in use quite easy.
Technique wise the sail would be brought up on deck and attached to the deck fitting and halyard with sheets already attached. Separate track carts would be handy so that it could be raised and trimmed before the 150 is rolled up.
I'd say deck reinforcement would be a good idea and I like Koudie's idea about a detachable Dynema cord.
If the H34 is a B&R rig you may not need running backs, which would sour the idea for me. I'm not expert, nor do I have any engineering credentials, but the middle mast of a B&R rig seems to be pretty well supported.
Some of the C&C designs had a baby stay as part of the normal rig. It was, said by one owner, to to stabilize the mast from pumping with masthead symmetric spinnaker. Actually it was to keep the mast from inverting If you consider the big spinnaker collapsing and re-inflating. You can imagine a lot of force on the system. In this case I wouldn't expect force any thing like that and would entertain the idea of a well backed deck fitting to be sufficient - maybe.
My understanding of the OP is that the smaller sail would be set in higher winds as an alternative to rolling the 150. It would then likely a heavier material cut pretty flat. I like the idea for someone who feels that they need the 150 and a better alternative to RR. This would be primarily an up wind sail - going downwind with the rolled 150 would not impede performance. I would also limit the height of the sail to reduce heeling moment. At this point I'm imagining a pretty small sail.
I've read about sails with a detachable tack fitting. That and a Dynema cord sewn into the luff would be sufficient for a "Stay", I think. And would make storing the sail while not in use quite easy.
Technique wise the sail would be brought up on deck and attached to the deck fitting and halyard with sheets already attached. Separate track carts would be handy so that it could be raised and trimmed before the 150 is rolled up.
I'd say deck reinforcement would be a good idea and I like Koudie's idea about a detachable Dynema cord.
If the H34 is a B&R rig you may not need running backs, which would sour the idea for me. I'm not expert, nor do I have any engineering credentials, but the middle mast of a B&R rig seems to be pretty well supported.
Some of the C&C designs had a baby stay as part of the normal rig. It was, said by one owner, to to stabilize the mast from pumping with masthead symmetric spinnaker. Actually it was to keep the mast from inverting If you consider the big spinnaker collapsing and re-inflating. You can imagine a lot of force on the system. In this case I wouldn't expect force any thing like that and would entertain the idea of a well backed deck fitting to be sufficient - maybe.
Clarifying.. .. The H-34 has an early B&R and it has a stout backstay .. My concern is that the rig is supposed to be set up with a pretty good bow in the mast.. The swept spreaders make things work well for the normal rig and sails but if loaded on the forward side of the mast as a storm staysail would do, the bow in the mast might get big enough to upset the whole thing.. I am not a fan of running backstays either.. especially on a coastal cruiser.. but if the intended use is racing, then they may make sense on some (underdesigned) rigs..
again, "bar talk" 'cause I have not done any real load analysis (nor do I intend to)..
again, "bar talk" 'cause I have not done any real load analysis (nor do I intend to)..
The idea behind adding or using a staysail is to move the center of effort aft to better balance the rig when the mainsail is reefed. A small headsail on the forestay and a reefed main moves the center of effort forward which makes for less efficient sailing and more challenging sail trim in very heavy weather. With the COE aft, life on board gets more pleasant in unpleasant conditions.
I did it on my 410. But there was an option on my series for it. Mast had a forestay attachment point, halyard exits and chainplate attachment point. There was also plenty more deck hardware needed for the 2 sheets and halyard.
With your 2 reef lines (I have 3) that should all run back to the cockpit you'll need extra rope clutches, deck organizer to line up the lines not to mention sheet hardware, double turning Block at winches.
Roller furling is the way to go.
I wouldn't be without it, but not sure if the 34 can be converted, my previous boat was a h34.
2 reefs in, small sail out only I happily scoot along in 30knots true wind.
Did a 5100nm Hawaii and back to CA this last summer, singlehanded with the set up.
With your 2 reef lines (I have 3) that should all run back to the cockpit you'll need extra rope clutches, deck organizer to line up the lines not to mention sheet hardware, double turning Block at winches.
Roller furling is the way to go.
I wouldn't be without it, but not sure if the 34 can be converted, my previous boat was a h34.
2 reefs in, small sail out only I happily scoot along in 30knots true wind.
Did a 5100nm Hawaii and back to CA this last summer, singlehanded with the set up.
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Wow, thank you all for your contributions to the thread. Installing a third reef in the main is a very real possibility, but does not solve the COE question. The 1983 H34 in question has a strong backstay with block and tackle. The mast is pre-bent and has a relatively modest cross-section. The spinnaker pole topping lift exits the mast between the top and bottom backswept spreaders of the B&R double diamond rig. The 150 is on a double slotted RF head stay foil, but carrying and deploying smaller head sails is not option with this boat and typical crew. We are mostly cruising, not racing in the bay or near shore coastal waters. Rolling up the 150 entirely would be the first step, but she would be going nowhere in any kind of headwind. Downwind sailing is no problem with the current sails. The image 950166 above shows exactly what I have in mind for the staysail, but does not show it with the mainsail reefed. I see that image uses a RF set-up. This could be done, but as an initial test, I would just put it up and take it down when needed. Additional deck hardware and reinforcement could be added, if the initial tests are encouraging.
The deck hardware and positions are kind on critical to make it work good.
While a super tight halyard on a sail may kind of work upwind any sag in tension during high wind will diminish pointing ability.
You really need a forestay at the aft edge of the anchor locker, it should be a bulkhead if I remember corectly.
You'll end up needing to mount the first sheet blocks up on the coachroof cabintop, probably where the screws are.
Then you'll need to run it somewhere....
The sheet blocks on the track are way too far outboard to use.
It ended up being an expensive upgrade to really do right. I wanted everything in place, ready to go. You just want to avoid going up on deck while sailing offshore
While a super tight halyard on a sail may kind of work upwind any sag in tension during high wind will diminish pointing ability.
You really need a forestay at the aft edge of the anchor locker, it should be a bulkhead if I remember corectly.
You'll end up needing to mount the first sheet blocks up on the coachroof cabintop, probably where the screws are.
Then you'll need to run it somewhere....
The sheet blocks on the track are way too far outboard to use.
It ended up being an expensive upgrade to really do right. I wanted everything in place, ready to go. You just want to avoid going up on deck while sailing offshore
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I hear the thought, but this can be a bad plan. Good weather or bad weather stuff happens. Lines become tangled. Stuff becomes loose. Etc. You need to be able to address these events in all conditions coastal or off shore.
To do that you need to have a safe way to go up on deck. You need to prepare for the worst.
Rig:
- Jack LInes,
- have a PFD,
- Use tethers,
- install hard points that let you buckle in,
- install granny bars to give you a safe hold,
- Crawl if you need to
- Have hand holds
True that! But, if you can avoid going on deck for hanking on sails or reefing in rough conditions on deck, that's not a bad thing.
I singlehand and came to the conclusion that going overboard with a life jacket on offshore may not do me any good, I did trail a last ditch grab line.
Also, if I did go over the lifelines harnessed in would I be able to make it back up on deck (kept a fore/aft line hanging outside of lifelines) My lifeline netting, although great to have, would make it even more difficult.
I've crawled on deck and gotten soaked and slammed by big waves, it's really something to avoid.
I singlehand and came to the conclusion that going overboard with a life jacket on offshore may not do me any good, I did trail a last ditch grab line.
Also, if I did go over the lifelines harnessed in would I be able to make it back up on deck (kept a fore/aft line hanging outside of lifelines) My lifeline netting, although great to have, would make it even more difficult.
I've crawled on deck and gotten soaked and slammed by big waves, it's really something to avoid.
Thanks again all. I get that trying to convert a sloop into a cutter may not be the best way to go. I'll look into getting a smaller headsail. I will also look further into what could be done to rig an inner stay to a suitable point at the end or aft of the anchor locker. I have all the above mentioned safety gear, except granny bars. I definitely try to keep myself and crew off the deck whenever possible, but the current reefing set-up uses tack hooks and cam cleats at the gooseneck end of the boom. I get the various concerns about load and extra hardware. Will likely consult a professional rigger at some point. I do have one more thought: how about rigging the small jib as a club footed, self tacking staysail, with a single sheet taken back to a block at the base of the mast. Getting it from there to the cockpit will require some additional hardware. Re additional reef-lines and hardware. If a third reef is installed, I will reconfigure some of the lines to make use of existing turning blocks and clutches, add other hardware as necessary. Might be a good time to change the at mast reefing gear to single line slab reefing led to the cockpit. Or......maybe a new boat? By the way, I am never single-handing and am unlikely to venture more than 10 nm offshore in this boat...just enough to do the Delmarva.
One big issue I don't recall being mentioned is the ability to tack the Genoa if there is a second forestay for a staysail. If that stay is permanent, the Genoa needs to be furled before tacking and then unfurled or it has to squeeze through a narrow slot. Alternatively, the second forestay can be removable, but that raises a storage problem.
I guess it all depends on how and where you sail regarding the inner forestay "problem"
If you do a lot of short tacking, racing, yes, it will be in the way. If you need to short tack, it is possible to just use the inner sail, at a slower speed, ok If not racing.
Otherwise I do roll up the Genoa to tack but I tend to cruise, longer distances.
Of note, I did love my h34 for about 9 years before moving to a 410. It's a fast boat that needed reefing earlier than most boats. If you are only sailing local, within 10 miles of shore, I would not change the setup. You will probably never see a situation where you need what we're talking about unless you insist on venturing out during a gale or worse.
A couple of reefs in the main and rolling up the Genoa will get you back in the harbor within a couple of hours, save your money, pick the weather you go out in.
If you do a lot of short tacking, racing, yes, it will be in the way. If you need to short tack, it is possible to just use the inner sail, at a slower speed, ok If not racing.
Otherwise I do roll up the Genoa to tack but I tend to cruise, longer distances.
Of note, I did love my h34 for about 9 years before moving to a 410. It's a fast boat that needed reefing earlier than most boats. If you are only sailing local, within 10 miles of shore, I would not change the setup. You will probably never see a situation where you need what we're talking about unless you insist on venturing out during a gale or worse.
A couple of reefs in the main and rolling up the Genoa will get you back in the harbor within a couple of hours, save your money, pick the weather you go out in.