AC Power Failure on Freedom 2500. Ideas?

[Rick D]

I have a Freedom 2500 inverter/charger, circa 1998. I am experiencing an AC failure / charger failure. Maybe someone has faced this before or has an idea where it may be. Here’s the deal:

We had been on the boat for several days. Suddenly, the distribution panel (boat’s not Freedom’s) displays a reverse polarity light. No AC is available from the panel. Dock power up and breaker on. On the Link panel charger light is on, no alarm lights. However, no charge current is being supplied to batteries.

Disconnecting shore power and turning on the inverter yields normal AC power. Polarity light normal. I then turn off the inverter and connect the shore power. Checking the panel yields 117 volts into the boat’s distribution panel. My meter will not indicate if AC polarity is reversed or not. I hook up my travel dock power cord and run it to another power post. Same reverse polarity light and same no AC.

Looking over the boat’s distribution panel, it appears there is a reverse polarity protection circuit, which, if true, would keep the AC from going past the panel if it senses a mismatch. That would explain the AC 117 volt reading before the breakers but no AC output I surmise.

Looking over the Freedom manual is no help.

So, as best I can recall, there is no AC branch before the AC from the dock cord arrives at the Freedom. Thus, it appears some kind of circuit failure where the charger component of the Freedom is located. But I still don’t understand the reverse polarity light.

I didn’t find anything helpful on the Xantrex site that might address this.

Any ideas????

 

[sailingdog]

Rick—

I'd be surprised if the AC lines coming into the boat from the Shorepower plug didn't go into the Shorepower AC panel first. Generally, the inverter/charger is going to be on a breaker coming off the main shorepower AC panel.

Did your marina recently do any work to the shorepower circuits? If you have a 30-amp-male-to-15-amp-female pigtail, you can use one of the reverse polarity detectors to diagnose the problem rather quickly.

The 110 VAC you're seeing on the boat may be from the inverter drawing on the batteries...and may not mean anything with regards to the Shorepower setup.

BTW, if the setup was working properly, and you haven't changed anything on it... the problem is likely not on the boat. Check the shorepower post using the equipment above.

 

[Rick D]

Thanks. I was thinking of that too, but I think the AC feeds directly to the Freedom. There is no AC breaker for the Freedom and the Freedom has a built-in breaker. The docks are pretty new, no work done recently, was normal for a couple of days before this. A couple of other boats have no such issues.

 

[Stu Jackson]

1. We had been on the boat for several days. Suddenly, the distribution panel (boat’s not Freedom’s) displays a reverse polarity light. No AC is available from the panel.

2. Dock power up and breaker on. On the Link panel charger light is on, no alarm lights. However, no charge current is being supplied to batteries.

3. Disconnecting shore power and turning on the inverter yields normal AC power. Polarity light normal. I then turn off the inverter and connect the shore power. Checking the panel yields 117 volts into the boat’s distribution panel. My meter will not indicate if AC polarity is reversed or not. I hook up my travel dock power cord and run it to another power post. Same reverse polarity light and same no AC.

1. Not clear whether all the time your were on the boat you wer plugged in or not.
2. Does this mean you were on the inverter at the dock and then plugged it in? Charger light on Link I assume is normally off and you only manually turn it on when you want to charge.
3. Shorepower off, inverter no A.C. works. Do I get this right? Reveerse polarity light comes ON when now plugged into dock power, both yours and someone else's power? Right?

4. Looking over the boat’s distribution panel, it appears there is a reverse polarity protection circuit, which, if true, would keep the AC from going past the panel if it senses a mismatch.
5. That would explain the AC 117 volt reading before the breakers but no AC output I surmise.

4. It's not a protection circuit, it's only an indicator, and unless usualy, doesn't turn anything off. 5. So, no it wouldn't.

Looking over the Freedom manual is no help.

Yup, but that's not what it was written for.

So, as best I can recall, there is no AC branch before the AC from the dock cord arrives at the Freedom. Thus, it appears some kind of circuit failure where the charger component of the Freedom is located. But I still don’t understand the reverse polarity light.

Wiring: incoming AC goes to Freedom first, and it's internal automatic transfer switch either uses the shorepower or the inverter to provide 120V to the AC main breaker panel. Why do you think your charger function isn't working? Are the batteries full. What do the charge lights on the Link say? Item 2 above, what is the voltage at the batteries when you're [supposed to be] charging?

I didn’t find anything helpful on the Xantrex site that might address this.

It sounds more like a polarity issue than a charger issue. Our inverter does strange things with the polarity indicator, I don't sweat it.

So, how come you think the charging is not working?

Sounds like your shorepower did something weird.

 

[sailingdog]

It is still worth checking the power at the shorepower post. The problem could be on another boat, and feeding back into yours.

 

[Ron20324]

Do NOT run the battery charger when the inverter is powered on. For one thing, you'd be draining batteries faster than charging, and the other thing is you just don't have them both on at the same time.... Otherwise, this sounds like a problem ashore.

How many watts is the inverter?

 

[Don12364]

Freedom combis take the shorepower directly into a power changeover relay which normally sits with the inverter output connected to the boat's AC circuits. On connection of shorepower the unit monitors its voltage (and waveform) waits for a few seconds and if it decides the shorepower is okay it then switches the power through to the boat's AC system.
This is all part of the automatic changeover from shorepower to inverter if the shorepower fails. Of course one can disable this changeover to prevent the inverter running the batteries flat if you don't notice the changeover or are away from the boat.
Hence Rick D's symptoms are correct and it looks as if the detecting circuit which drives the relay has malfunctioned - or the unit is switched off by the switch on the rear! And the charger may also be bad as well.

I too have a defective charger on my Freedom but there is no service agent in the UK.
If anyone has a circuit diagram it would be a tremendous help please.

 

[sailingdog]

Ron—

The battery charger is the the inverter... the unit is a Freedom 2500 inverter/charger. It won't try charging batteries unless it has a live AC feed. The Inverter is rated at 2500 watts IIRC.

Do NOT run the battery charger when the inverter is powered on. For one thing, you'd be draining batteries faster than charging, and the other thing is you just don't have them both on at the same time.... Otherwise, this sounds like a problem ashore.

How many watts is the inverter?

 

[sailingdog]

Actually, it depends on how you have them wired. You can have them wired in several different ways. One way is what you describe, where all the AC power passes through the Freedom unit.

However, that is not the only way they can be wired. For instance, on my boat, the Freedom inverter/charger is wired to one of three AC circuits that are off the main shorepower feed. Some of the AC electrical outlets on my boat are shorepower-only, others are via the inverter...

However, until we have full confirmation on how the Freedom 2500 in the OP is actually wired, there is really no way to decide what is actually at fault.

Freedom combis take the shorepower directly into a power changeover relay which normally sits with the inverter output connected to the boat's AC circuits. On connection of shorepower the unit monitors its voltage (and waveform) waits for a few seconds and if it decides the shorepower is okay it then switches the power through to the boat's AC system.
This is all part of the automatic changeover from shorepower to inverter if the shorepower fails. Of course one can disable this changeover to prevent the inverter running the batteries flat if you don't notice the changeover or are away from the boat.
Hence Rick D's symptoms are correct and it looks as if the detecting circuit which drives the relay has malfunctioned - or the unit is switched off by the switch on the rear! And the charger may also be bad as well.

I too have a defective charger on my Freedom but there is no service agent in the UK.
If anyone has a circuit diagram it would be a tremendous help please.

 

[Rick D]

Some Answers

SailingDog: The unit is definitely wired so that the AC goes from the plug to the Freedom w/o any branches.

Stu:
1. We were on shorepower.
2. We were on shorepower. I just disconnected it for testing. The DC Charger is auto unless overridden.
3. Opposite on this. When on shorepower.... no AC and reverse polarity on. When on inverter. all was normal.
4. Altho the panel indicates the charger is on, I can tell by the link there is nothing going out the door.

Thanks for your help so far guys. I tend to think this is internal by way of reduction, but I also want to be sure I didn't overlook something as is too often the case.

 

[Ron20324]

Not the same model, but my Xantrex inverter manual says reverse AC input polarity can damage the unit. That would mean hot line on the neutral wire might fry it. I would think your higher-priced unit would have the reverse polarity lockout, but the West catalog does not say so.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Maybe no unit problem at all!

The unit is definitely wired so that the AC goes from the plug to the Freedom w/o any branches.

Stu:
1. We were on shorepower.
2. We were on shorepower. I just disconnected it for testing. The DC Charger is auto unless overridden.
3. Opposite on this. When on shorepower.... no AC and reverse polarity on. When on inverter. all was normal.
4. Altho the panel indicates the charger is on, I can tell by the link there is nothing going out the door.

Rick,

Yes, SD, we have the same unit, while ours is a Freedom 15, it's the same wiring deal. For those of you who are guessing about how it's connected, you can rely on our wiring knowledge about this specific unit.

1. OK understand.
2. Our Link 2000 is set up to have the charger off unless manually turned on at the Link. I just reviewed the manual and there seems to be no default, so maybe you just leave your charger on all the time. Better yet this question: What Link do you have?
3. I was confused by the use of the word "normal" but now I get it. What is happening is that the shorepower RP light is ON and that means someone messed with the shorepower. I don't buy the "it could be someone elses' boat" because all that would do is set up galvanic corrosion between your two boats, and would NOT do anything about RP on the shorepower wiring. That concept is nonsense.
4. You mean the amps and voltage don't go up when the charger should be on, which is how you tell whether it's charging or not from the Link.

In summary, your inverter is working fine to provide 120V from your house bank to the electrical outlets, but the shorepower AC is NOT getting through and at the same time you are seeing RP from shorepower, and your charger side of the Freedom isn't working. Is this correct?

If so, then it appears either the internal automatic transfer switch and/or the charger circuitry MAY not be working properly. But...

BINGO: I do not know if RP alone would cut off the charger output inside the Freedom unit. With this specific question in the paragraph above you may get some answers from Xantrex, although their purchase of Heart means no one at Xantrex knows diddly about what goes on in these units.

BUT, here's the BINGO moment, the Troubleshooting Guide at the back of the Freedom installation manual, under "Little or No Output from Battery Charger" page 35, says:

"3. AC RP - check for voltage between the incoming white and green wires. If 120V is measured, this is RP." !!!!!!!! It does not say whether the unit will work or not with RP, but the little or NO charging just tweaks the hairs at the back of my neck, and should yours, too.

So, maybe you don't have a problem at all with the charger. Still doesn't explain the AC not getting through on shorepower.

If it was my boat and marina, I'd check the polarity on the dock at a number of outlets, take pictures and record the results. If it's RP, go directly to the marina office, DO NOT PASS GO!

I would love to know the results, and hope that your Freedom unit is fine, and that someone else messed up big time.

Keep us posted. Ain't it fun to read the instruction manual!?!?

 

[sailaway78]

I would never

I would never have anything wired to shore power that doesn't go first through the breaker. Just doesn't make sense to me. If it does not go through the breaker first, you have absolutely no protection on the boat in case of a short in that part of the system, other than the dock plug breaker. Not enough for me.

 

[Stu Jackson]

I would never have anything wired to shore power that doesn't go first through the breaker.

Ya just don't understand how they work. The Freedom units are COMBINED inverters and chargers in ONE big box.

The Freedom unit HAS to have the shorepower go to it first because there is a built in automatic transfer switch that decides whether to pass the current through if there is shorepower available, or to use the inverter if there is not IF the inverter is turned on at the Link controller.

Wiring: shorepower to Freedom, Freedom to main AC breaker.

The concept is that EITHER the shorepower provides AC to the main AC panel breaker OR the inverter does. Never both. Pretty simple.

What's NOT protected? Without the Freedom, the shorepower comes into the boat via the plug, and then goes to the AC breaker.

The only difference with the Freedom is that it comes into the unit's ATS and then to the breaker.

It's NO different than having a Blue Seas 8132 selector switch with a standalone inverter. One doesn't need to fuse switches, and the Freedom is fused, too.

 

[GuyT]

You have an open connection on the neutral wire.
You dont have reverse polarity - but your idiot light thinks you do.

Your neutral is not being referenced to ground like it should when connected to shore power.
Wiggle all the wires, check for corrosion and clean up the lugs with a brass brush.
Good luck!

 

[Rick D]

Good thinking. Before I pull the unit out which is quite a big deal, I'll check the dock polarity as SeaDog suggested, Stu, I'll check the polarity at the boat and Guy, I'll check for a bad connection, altho I replaced the shore power plug last year and checked it again before this post.

 

[Rick D]

For Stu

1. OK understand.
2. Our Link 2000 is set up to have the charger off unless manually turned on at the Link. I just reviewed the manual and there seems to be no default, so maybe you just leave your charger on all the time. Better yet this question: What Link do you have? Same as yours. Yes, the charger is always on unless I turn it off.
3. I was confused by the use of the word "normal" but now I get it. What is happening is that the shorepower RP light is ON and that means someone messed with the shorepower. I don't buy the "it could be someone elses' boat" because all that would do is set up galvanic corrosion between your two boats, and would NOT do anything about RP on the shorepower wiring. That concept is nonsense.
4. You mean the amps and voltage don't go up when the charger should be on, which is how you tell whether it's charging or not from the Link. Exactly

In summary, your inverter is working fine to provide 120V from your house bank to the electrical outlets, but the shorepower AC is NOT getting through and at the same time you are seeing RP from shorepower, and your charger side of the Freedom isn't working. Is this correct? That is correct.

If so, then it appears either the internal automatic transfer switch and/or the charger circuitry MAY not be working properly. But...

BINGO: I do not know if RP alone would cut off the charger output inside the Freedom unit. With this specific question in the paragraph above you may get some answers from Xantrex, although their purchase of Heart means no one at Xantrex knows diddly about what goes on in these units.

BUT, here's the BINGO moment, the Troubleshooting Guide at the back of the Freedom installation manual, under "Little or No Output from Battery Charger" page 35, says:

"3. AC RP - check for voltage between the incoming white and green wires. If 120V is measured, this is RP." !!!!!!!! It does not say whether the unit will work or not with RP, but the little or NO charging just tweaks the hairs at the back of my neck, and should yours, too. Good catch! I missed that. I'll check when I am there.

So, maybe you don't have a problem at all with the charger. Still doesn't explain the AC not getting through on shorepower. That is a puzzler.

If it was my boat and marina, I'd check the polarity on the dock at a number of outlets, take pictures and record the results. If it's RP, go directly to the marina office, DO NOT PASS GO!

I would love to know the results, and hope that your Freedom unit is fine, and that someone else messed up big time.

Keep us posted. I will. I am going to Nicaragua for a couple of weeks but will post whatever I find out.Ain't it fun to read the instruction manual!?!?[/QUOTE]

 

[GuyT]

Problems not in the plug Rick. Plugs are molded and do pretty well when plugged and unplugged cause this actually cleans the corrosion off a little. Best way to solve an intermittent connection is to plug and unplug - it wipes corrosion.
Problem is between the shore power receptacle and the panel or in the panel itself.
Pull the panel and check wires there - also pull the receptacle, I have seen LOTS of posts with bad connections there.

 

[Rick D]

AC Connection Question & Power Failure Freedom 2500 Update

Well, I removed the unit and took it home to bench check and find there is no DC output so the charger isn't working and the AC output has no current between the black and white wires but 120 volts between the black and green, thus the reverse polarity light.

A question about hooking up the AC however. Originally, the AC connections were by wire nuts. All the AC wiring is braided core. I didn't like that, so I used crimp connectors which I had to cut off. Now, however, I am going to use insulated spade connectors so I can disconnect it again without cutting the wires. However, I have a concern that they may induce some resistance. The incoming power is 50 amps. However, I rarely draw over five. So, my question to you better versed in electronics than I... any reason to be concerned????

 

[Rick D]

Re: AC Connection Question & Power Failure Freedom 2500 Update

Found the problem. Fried AC circuit board. Replacement $375 part plus $150 labor. That and my aching back and scuffed knuckles. While I was at it, I added an AC outlet in the Laz. Figured it would be handy.