ablative paint

[alanwir]

Re Ablative Paint
One should not overlook the performance compounds in these ablative paints themselves-the paint/coating's companies have not. If you look closely at the ingredients, you will see a newer raw material trade named "Econea" which directs its attention towards hard fouling. There is a second key ingredient going into the new formula's- one is trade named "Zinc PYRION" which has a function directed towards the soft fouling (Slime and Mold). Many of the newer products will actually have a small notation on the can-"Econea" Both raw materials are sold by Janssen PMP to the coating's companies and not marketed to our audience. When "Econea" first came to the market, it had some long term issues, however those problems have been completely solved.

The "Econea" products are usually more expensive than the copper containing- Irgasol products, however one may wish to consider these raw material for 2 main reasons:
a) More Environmentally friendly- so those folks out in Ca. may know some of this story already.
b) The coatings containing "Econea" work very well for hard fouling, no matter the region.

Again, and of course, this is not to say ACT or any of the other named products are not suitable, they are very good formulations, however the Manufacturers having products with both "Econea" and "Zinc PYRION" can provide one with a superior performance, no matter which Manufacturer brand you are using.

Both the "Econea" and the "Zinc PYRION" are EPA Registered Raw materials and as with any products-price can be a driving factor-however when you look at "punch for buck" it is not always just the price.

Note: I have not looked at all the ingredients on all the manufacture's paints, I know some advertise openly their product contains these products, other makers may not, but I hope in some small way, some of the above will provide a little additional education in making choices.

 

[fstbttms]

Why do I never hear of anybody using Coppercoat?

Because it sucks. 10 years or not, sh*tty performance is sh*tty performance.

 

[fstbttms]

I think most people consider the Chesapeake a high growth area....moderate at least dont they???

If that's "high growth", I wonder what you'd consider our fouling rates to be. In that same 9 month period, a boat here in the Bay Area would need to be cleaned 4 or 5 times. 9 or 10 times in SoCal.

 

[Warren Milberg]

I have been using hydrocoat for the past 10 or seasons. I put on one thin coat with a 3/8" roller. 2d coat over keel and leading edges. No hard growth anywhere,but do get slime
..If I were to paint over hard paint I'd do a sanding with 80 grit discs and then a coat of Primocon before applying soft ablative paint.

 

[fstbttms]

...the Manufacturers having products with both "Econea" and "Zinc PYRION" can provide one with a superior performance, no matter which Manufacturer brand you are using.

Having had experience cleaning boats with these products on their hulls, I can categorically state that the paint manufacturers have yet to formulate a replacement for copper-based anti fouling paints that works nearly as well. Zinc and Econea are not magic bullets. At least not here.

 

[alanwir]

Re Ablative paints and Ultima SR-60 and Hydrocoat-extra note
I always find Maine Sails information extremely helpful and to the point, so I wish to be careful here-I believe what he has indicated. I would just like to further mention that I also believe both of these formulations are loaded up with copper-a heavy metal that for the most part is providing the anti fouling performance of the formulation. Do these products work? They sure should! With one sail boat using a copper based product, the amount of heavy metal copper "chalking off" into the water, will be meaningless when we speak of water pollution, but with 100's upon 100's using copper based formulations on boats (recreational or commercial), then we have a heavy metal being introduced into the water that starts to be a concern. Think of the super tankers and steamer container ships docked at places like Long Beach, Newark, or Houston and the pollution they are generating-I know-not your/our problem.

When I suggested that "Econea" is environmentally friendly, it is so, because the chemistry surrounding this product is completely organic and bio-degradable, not heavy metal oriented. Frequently it is the case that when you employ "environmentally friendly to any product, you can end up with having to add more of it and one never arrives at the performance of what has been the standard for some time-ultimately translated-Disappointment.

If you google "Econea" you will find more details, it does work! You may find that if you are into racing, you may actually go faster and with less troubling cleanings in a season or sending divers down to clean the hull. Anyways, Myself, I am just a cruiser and in no way trying to beat anyone to the finish line. Finally, "Econea" is a proven raw material and not some snake oil that is around for a short ride and it is in formulations now.

 

[Chef2sail]

If that's "high growth", I wonder what you'd consider our fouling rates to be. In that same 9 month period, a boat here in the Bay Area would need to be cleaned 4 or 5 times. 9 or 10 times in SoCal.

Fastbttm,

Always respected your knowledge and love your posts so help educate me as I am a right coaster here and dont always think about the left coast. One of the places I am thinking of retiring to in a few years is San Diego area or somewhere on the west coast

So you guys all on the west coast in California bottom paint and then have a diver clean every month? Thats the norm? All areas are like that?

Compared to that your right the Chesapeake is a not an area of high growth. My statement should be amended then to compare to areas close to here like the LI Sound, Maine and NE.

Thats an expense I hadnt figured on. Does the growth have anything to do with the newer restrictions imposed on the bottom paints out there which eventually moves to us here in the east? What proprtion of people use ablative as opposed to hard paints?

I have a question, doesnt the temperature of the water increase growth on the bottom, My assumption, because the water temps are so much cooler out west was that Florida, the Gulf, and large inland body of water like the Chesapeake where the water temps were in excess of 70 and sometimes even 75 would promote explosive growth compared to 60 degreee or even less water temps.

Is the left coast growth mainly the hard kind like mussels, barnacles, or is it soft growth slime algae?

 

[Maine Sail]

Having had experience cleaning boats with these products on their hulls, I can categorically state that the paint manufacturers have yet to formulate a replacement for copper-based anti fouling paints that works nearly as well. Zinc and Econea are not magic bullets. At least not here.

Amen. A customer of mine used it last season and it performed HORRIBLY compared to the copper ablative he had been using.. I think Pettit ha the best formulation but I still don't think it performs anywhere near copper...

 

[Nodak7]

The manufacturer will claim it was not installed correctly, and the salesman will shrug his shoulders and say "sorry".

BTW Anchor I do have it in writing from the Pettit "Experts" on their website. So if I decide to go that route I do have some legs to stand on. Here is what he told me...

"However, we have a product call Hydrocoat SR. It's the same exact product as Ultima SR-40 however is it a waterbase instead of a solvent base so it will go right over the VC 17 as long as you scuff it. That would be my suggestion, great product to work with. no solvent smells, soap and water clean up. Extremely effective."

However the jury is still out and this posting has some good information that has been useful!

 

[seadaddler]

SR-40

When I first moved my boat to Florida I put 2 coats of SR-40 and even with super warm water I got about 4 years and never had a diver do any cleaning and I just cleaned the prop and during warm summer the prop did get loaded up and the hull would have some slim on it but that was it just light slime.
I did change to SR 60 and will see how well and long it last but the diver told me not to have my hull cleaned by a diver because it's too soft and just sail it a lot which I do and when I raced last week a friend said i need to clean my hull becauseit had some slime on it but don't expect to do alot of racing and will just keep doing what I been doing.
A friend told me he used one of the sea hawk paints and it is on 5 years and he has a diver clean every 6 weeks.
Nick

 

[fstbttms]

So you guys all on the west coast in California bottom paint and then have a diver clean every month? Thats the norm? All areas are like that?

SoCal- 15 cleanings/year (every 3-4 weeks) is typical.
NorCal- 4-6 cleanings/year (every 8-12 weeks) is typical.

Does the growth have anything to do with the newer restrictions imposed on the bottom paints out there which eventually moves to us here in the east?

No. There are no restrictions on bottom paint. We use what you use.

What proprtion of people use ablative as opposed to hard paints?

Because in-water cleaning is needed so often in Southern California, ablatives are not as common as they are in Northern California. Even less so in San Diego now that cleaning paints that produce a "plume" has been banned by the Port. Up here, I'd say the numbers are pretty evenly split.

I have a question, doesnt the temperature of the water increase growth on the bottom, My assumption, because the water temps are so much cooler out west was that Florida, the Gulf, and large inland body of water like the Chesapeake where the water temps were in excess of 70 and sometimes even 75 would promote explosive growth compared to 60 degreee or even less water temps.

Water temp is merely one of many factors affecting fouling growth. Sunlight, water clarity, salinity, nutrient levels etc., etc. all play a part in how much and how quickly fouling growth will accumulate. As evidenced by seadaddler (who claims to have never needed hull cleaning in warm Florida waters), the fouling progression is not a linear one based on water temperature alone.

Is the left coast growth mainly the hard kind like mussels, barnacles, or is it soft growth slime algae?

We do not get barnacles here the way boats on the East Coast apparently do. Left unattended, we do get hard growth (barnacles, mussels, oysters etc.) but with regular maintenance, bottoms in good condition usually see mostly soft growth. In SoCal however, unpainted surfaces (like running gear) quickly become very foul with South China Sea Coral Worm, which is one of the reasons they need to clean so frequently there.

 

[fstbttms]

If you google "Econea" you will find more details, it does work! You may find that if you are into racing, you may actually go faster and with less troubling cleanings in a season or sending divers down to clean the hull.

As with all anti fouling coatings, there is no one-size-fits-all solution. A product that works well in a low-fouling region (like New Jersey) may not perform at all somewhere else. And again, I can tell you from personal experience, Econea and zinc-based anti fouling paints do not work as well as their copper-based counterparts. This is simply a fact. They are not as effective. They are certainly not more effective, as your statement above infers. If they were, we would have been using them years ago. If they were, they'd have found widespread acceptance, which they haven't. What we find in California is that these new, non-copper anti fouling paints require cleaning about two times more frequently than copper-based paints. And here in the San Francisco Bay, where our waters are relatively murky, the photo-reactive zinc paints available currently are actually pretty dismal failures, with fast fouling rates and short lifespans.

Will the paint manufacturers be able to come up with a non-copper alternative that matches copper-based paint's performance? That remains to be seen. Just as copper paints are not as effective as tin paints were, the next generation of anti fouling technology (while being more environmentally friendly) may not work as well as copper does.

 

[FourPoints]

When I was in Puerto Rico a few weeks back, I had to clean the bottom of the boat I borrowed from a relative. It had been 2 months since it was last cleaned, and had a 4-12 inch layer of soft growth over the whole hull. I was prepared for the type of soft growth we see in NE after 2 Months, not what I found...

 

[Chris Patterson]

--In SoCal however, unpainted surfaces (like running gear) quickly become very foul with South China Sea Coral Worm, which is one of the reasons they need to clean so frequently there.--'Quote'

I have no clue what fouls running gear around here, but I'm planing on Pettit's "barnacle spray paint" on the prop. Any thoughts on this?

 

[fstbttms]

I have no clue what fouls running gear around here, but I'm planing on Pettit's "barnacle spray paint" on the prop. Any thoughts on this?

My guess is barnacles are what foul running gear in South Carolina, and I think you'll find Pettit Zinc Coat Barnacle Barrier an inexpensive and relatively effective solution.

 

[alanwir]

Copper Ablative paints vs "Econea" vs Copper-Fast Bottoms view-Prop Protection

Again, much of what Fast Bottoms has suggested also has relevance, however I would not be so quick to condemn "Econea". I am not a paint company, nor do I sail in Ca., I merely try to look at the data supplied coming to the market. For example, if one were to look at Pettit's information about their own products, they openly discuss the relationships in some of their formulas (Ultima SR-60 and their Ultimate Eco- an "Econea" based formula which Pettit seems to be highly recommending). I would just like to suggest that when you conduct and evaluation on "Econea" remember that this product was designed for hard fouling. The ZPT or Zinc types direct themselves to soft fouling. It has been suggested that in order to get the best product out there by some of the paint companies, you may need both the "Econea" and the Zinc Pyrithion(Zinc active raw material) combination and perhaps something else further, in some trace amount which will not be openly disclosed by paint companies.

"Econea" is reported to be compatible with copper, so who knows, there may be someone out there developing a product with both or still yet, they may be some other new product coming to the market unknown to anyone at this point that has nothing to do with "Econea" or copper. The market is never static.

With some 300 or more data points coming in now from both Independent labs as well as commercial paint companies with a focus on "Econea", the paint companies are fine tuning their formulated products: (again another example-Sea Hawk which Pettit includes in their current comparative evaluation on their website). Sea Hawk is now out in the Boat Shows (specifically the Ma. both show held just 2 weeks ago, providing evidence of some of their own updated new product info focused and directed towards prop protection with a presentation incorporating barnacles, "Econea" and what I improperly referring to as a package combination of their own. The Sea Hawk photos of their actual long term studies, not accelerated, look very impressive for prop protection and they were putting their money where there mouth is, with a heavy discount on their product-and no I do not work for Sea Hawk either.

The data coming in suggests that "Econea"-ZPT combinations work very well i and if you fine tune your google search, you will see that US military vessels are reported to be in use of this combination, so you make the call.

 

[fstbttms]

The data coming in suggests that "Econea"-ZPT combinations work very well i and if you fine tune your google search, you will see that US military vessels are reported to be in use of this combination, so you make the call.

If you want to spend your next several thousand dollars on a haulout based on information you found doing a Google search, hey, knock yourself out. It's your dime. But I have been involved with testing of several paints using zinc and Econea, both for a prominent local boatyard as well as Interlux Paints. I know wherefore I speak. And based on my personal, first-hand experience cleaning these products over many months, I would not currently recommend them to my clients.

 

[Joe]

Out here we leave our boats in the water year round. I use an average quality hardshell paint such as Interlux bottomkote and a reliable dive service for monthly maintenance. (Except the first three months after new paint) I've never gone less than three years between haulouts. My diver charges about $35/month for my 27 foot boat.... and he does not scrub the bottom, he wipes it down with a piece of carpet. So, for $420/year, I save the time and dollar cost of a yearly haulout.... and.... not spending $300 per gallon on some super duper paint. Plus......... I have a super clean bottom ALL the time... which makes sailing that much better. A regular dive service is a cost effective maintenance strategy out here.

 

[Gunni]

I have been using hydrocoat for the past 10 or seasons. I put on one thin coat with a 3/8" roller. 2d coat over keel and leading edges. No hard growth anywhere,but do get slime
..If I were to paint over hard paint I'd do a sanding with 80 grit discs and then a coat of Primocon before applying soft ablative paint.

Hydrocoat. Similar experience to Warren, and close by in location. When the soft growth starts to build (July), I pick a windy, squally day and go bashing the Chesapeake square chop. Cleans her right up.

My base layer is Trinidad, Hydrocoat on top, no sand. In fact I just give her a scrub in the spring and roll a light coat on. No hard growth.