this forum is for use by owners of C&C, Catalinas,Hunters,ODays,MacGregors,and Beneteaus from what I understand. Of all of these brands which is considered the stiffest? I am looking for a boat that doesnt lean excessively or get squirrely in a blow.Can you suggest other models that fall into the same general price range as those above.Thanks!
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Give me scow
Extremely stiff boats are good on small lakes in fairly calm winds. They will beat you to death in a chop. Once they heel beyond a certain point, they will tend to go over all at once (even if they self-right when you let go the sheet). For this reason, stiff boats tend to be more squirrely in a blow. On the positive side, they are lighter, faster and generally require less water depth. Keep in mind that every boat design is a compromise.
Extremely stiff boats are good on small lakes in fairly calm winds. They will beat you to death in a chop. Once they heel beyond a certain point, they will tend to go over all at once (even if they self-right when you let go the sheet). For this reason, stiff boats tend to be more squirrely in a blow. On the positive side, they are lighter, faster and generally require less water depth. Keep in mind that every boat design is a compromise.
I don't know...
That I understand what Mark is saying. However, I did a delivery of a boat with about a 50% ballast ratio. There was no wind but some lumpy water. When the motor quip, ( about every half hour) the boat practically snap rolled on the waves. I thought it would beat us all to death before we got home. We never did get to sail the boat so I don't know about performance. It had been to Europe & back, though. So, I am of the opinion that high ballast ratios don't make comfortable boats. If you search the boat spec pages I think it gives you ballast ratios & capsize screen numbers. That is a start on finding the stiffest boat. There is a lot to this question & a long talk with a naval architect will give you a fair understanding of what you're asking & how to get the answer. Good luck
That I understand what Mark is saying. However, I did a delivery of a boat with about a 50% ballast ratio. There was no wind but some lumpy water. When the motor quip, ( about every half hour) the boat practically snap rolled on the waves. I thought it would beat us all to death before we got home. We never did get to sail the boat so I don't know about performance. It had been to Europe & back, though. So, I am of the opinion that high ballast ratios don't make comfortable boats. If you search the boat spec pages I think it gives you ballast ratios & capsize screen numbers. That is a start on finding the stiffest boat. There is a lot to this question & a long talk with a naval architect will give you a fair understanding of what you're asking & how to get the answer. Good luck
Dynamic vs, static stability
Re-reading your post, I am not sure what type of boat characteristics you are after because of the unusual terminology used. When you say "leaning" I presume you mean "heeling". However, what exactly is meant by "squirrely in a blow"? Quick motions? All in all, you seem to be searching for increased comfort but appear to be focussed on trying to reduce the effect of wind rather than of seastate (wave motion) although the latter is by far the greatest cause of discomfort. At any rate, heeling is fairly easy to deal with. If you really want to minimize that, go for a multihull design (i.e. catamaran, trimaran or proa). Unfortunately, some of the lighter multihull designs tend to exhibit rather quick wave motions. Therefore, an alternative is to find a monohull with movable ballast and/or to learn how to trim the sails to minimize heel (i.e. by reducing sail area aloft, flattening the sails and spilling the wind in a gust by allowing the leech to twist off). When trying to reduce quick motions due to seastate one can either go the heavy-is-better inertial stability route, e.g. by considering some typical motorsailers, or one can learn how to best use the sails, in combination with proper helsmanship, to stabilize the vessel and minimize discomfort. Before deciding on which type of sailing vessel is right for you, and perhaps getting stuck with a heavy "crab crusher", you might want to go on San Francisco Bay in 25+ knot winds for an hour or so and have an experienced heavy weather sailing instructor show you how to comfortably sail one of the lighter cruising vessels represented on this website. Have fun! Flying Dutchman "Rivendel II", (Hunter Legend 43, hull #1)
Re-reading your post, I am not sure what type of boat characteristics you are after because of the unusual terminology used. When you say "leaning" I presume you mean "heeling". However, what exactly is meant by "squirrely in a blow"? Quick motions? All in all, you seem to be searching for increased comfort but appear to be focussed on trying to reduce the effect of wind rather than of seastate (wave motion) although the latter is by far the greatest cause of discomfort. At any rate, heeling is fairly easy to deal with. If you really want to minimize that, go for a multihull design (i.e. catamaran, trimaran or proa). Unfortunately, some of the lighter multihull designs tend to exhibit rather quick wave motions. Therefore, an alternative is to find a monohull with movable ballast and/or to learn how to trim the sails to minimize heel (i.e. by reducing sail area aloft, flattening the sails and spilling the wind in a gust by allowing the leech to twist off). When trying to reduce quick motions due to seastate one can either go the heavy-is-better inertial stability route, e.g. by considering some typical motorsailers, or one can learn how to best use the sails, in combination with proper helsmanship, to stabilize the vessel and minimize discomfort. Before deciding on which type of sailing vessel is right for you, and perhaps getting stuck with a heavy "crab crusher", you might want to go on San Francisco Bay in 25+ knot winds for an hour or so and have an experienced heavy weather sailing instructor show you how to comfortably sail one of the lighter cruising vessels represented on this website. Have fun! Flying Dutchman "Rivendel II", (Hunter Legend 43, hull #1)
Catalina 320 Experience
Henk's notes are worth pondering. Every boat design is a compromise over conflicting requirements of price, purpose (speed, endurance), stability (static & dynamic), & comfort (generally related to purpose). A very stable boat (static) may not be comfortable or safe (dynamic). Pin down what you want the boat for, how much you are willing to pay, and then go look at the various design-related parameters. The various rule-of-thumb parameters and usage-ratings often quoted are only general indicators not absolute guarantors. Also look hard at crew accomodations (not just bunks & galley, but hand-holds, walkways, rails, etc.) Consider how you would get from, say, the forward cabin bunk, into your foulies, and up to the helm with the boat tossing wildly in the rain. Consider how the boat will shed the water from a wave coming over from the bow (or stern). For a point-of-reference to your original question I sail a Catalina 320, wing keel, here in New England. It is a reasonably priced production coastal cruising boat (my purpose, price), and Catalina puts in fairly good quality & features for the money (design stability, etc.). I've had the boat out in 24-32 knot winds, with a single reef in the main & the Genoa furled to about 100%. Not a problem once you work out the right balance between sails & helm to get rid of any excess weather helm. Usually, an adjustment to the traveler will do. If the heeling gets a bit uncomfortable (Not dangerous or scary, it's just that I hate operating at an angle over 10 degrees!) I just ease the main a bit to de-power. I find pounding through short cycle (time/distance, peak-to-peak) waves rather uncomfortable. Long duration ocean swells are not bad, providing they don't get too high peak-to-trough. I did a 23 hour coastal passage from Portland, ME to Marblehead, MA this summer and coming home we had 22+ knots directly down the rhumb line with short cycle 3-5+ ft seas coming about 10 degrees off the port bow. Had to motor almost all the way (tacking all that distance under those conditions wasn't an option). We experienced mostly a pitch motion under those conditions; some roll but not excessive, all things considered. About every sixth wave slammed us hard into the trough, burying the nose into the oncoming wave, throwing water over the boat & spay into the helmsman's face (we even found a small fish jammed in my dodger!). Hope that helps. Go do the survey of price/purpose/etc. then try to take out a variety of boats from the affordable/desirable sample in as heavy weather as you can. --Ron s/v Lady Jane
Henk's notes are worth pondering. Every boat design is a compromise over conflicting requirements of price, purpose (speed, endurance), stability (static & dynamic), & comfort (generally related to purpose). A very stable boat (static) may not be comfortable or safe (dynamic). Pin down what you want the boat for, how much you are willing to pay, and then go look at the various design-related parameters. The various rule-of-thumb parameters and usage-ratings often quoted are only general indicators not absolute guarantors. Also look hard at crew accomodations (not just bunks & galley, but hand-holds, walkways, rails, etc.) Consider how you would get from, say, the forward cabin bunk, into your foulies, and up to the helm with the boat tossing wildly in the rain. Consider how the boat will shed the water from a wave coming over from the bow (or stern). For a point-of-reference to your original question I sail a Catalina 320, wing keel, here in New England. It is a reasonably priced production coastal cruising boat (my purpose, price), and Catalina puts in fairly good quality & features for the money (design stability, etc.). I've had the boat out in 24-32 knot winds, with a single reef in the main & the Genoa furled to about 100%. Not a problem once you work out the right balance between sails & helm to get rid of any excess weather helm. Usually, an adjustment to the traveler will do. If the heeling gets a bit uncomfortable (Not dangerous or scary, it's just that I hate operating at an angle over 10 degrees!) I just ease the main a bit to de-power. I find pounding through short cycle (time/distance, peak-to-peak) waves rather uncomfortable. Long duration ocean swells are not bad, providing they don't get too high peak-to-trough. I did a 23 hour coastal passage from Portland, ME to Marblehead, MA this summer and coming home we had 22+ knots directly down the rhumb line with short cycle 3-5+ ft seas coming about 10 degrees off the port bow. Had to motor almost all the way (tacking all that distance under those conditions wasn't an option). We experienced mostly a pitch motion under those conditions; some roll but not excessive, all things considered. About every sixth wave slammed us hard into the trough, burying the nose into the oncoming wave, throwing water over the boat & spay into the helmsman's face (we even found a small fish jammed in my dodger!). Hope that helps. Go do the survey of price/purpose/etc. then try to take out a variety of boats from the affordable/desirable sample in as heavy weather as you can. --Ron s/v Lady Jane
go for the old hunters
e.g., 1978 - 1981. They had short rigs with a lot of weight below. Really stable boats. Don't expect to win any races.
e.g., 1978 - 1981. They had short rigs with a lot of weight below. Really stable boats. Don't expect to win any races.
Cherubini Hunters win races?
Peter, You apparently have not sailed the same Cherubini Hunters I have sailed. John Cherubini was more into racing than any other aspect of sailing and his designs reflect this. In fact he allowed his teenage son to design the interiors of several of his boats, as hull shape and strong rigging were more his passion. His genious shines in blending function with form and that means boats that look gracefull and move...and move they do! My advise, buy a Cherubini Hunter, learn how to sail it, and you will find yourself on a great sailing "stiff" boat, that will be hard to beat. Don Bodemann PS: the interior layouts aren't bad either.
Peter, You apparently have not sailed the same Cherubini Hunters I have sailed. John Cherubini was more into racing than any other aspect of sailing and his designs reflect this. In fact he allowed his teenage son to design the interiors of several of his boats, as hull shape and strong rigging were more his passion. His genious shines in blending function with form and that means boats that look gracefull and move...and move they do! My advise, buy a Cherubini Hunter, learn how to sail it, and you will find yourself on a great sailing "stiff" boat, that will be hard to beat. Don Bodemann PS: the interior layouts aren't bad either.
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