A Question For Mainesail - Soldering?

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May 11, 2005
3,431
Seidelman S37 Slidell, La.
Maine,
I read your crimper tests, and am as always impressed with the way you go about your tests. Not only expertly but in a logical progression. With regard to the crimper test, I am curious as to whether or not you considered a testing a crimp/solder connection. I always use the cheapo crimper and solder my connectors. Have been doing this for years, thousands of offshore miles, and have never, ever had a single failure. I am curious how this method stands up against the higher quality crimpers alone.
 

bria46

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Jan 15, 2011
286
Oday 272 Waukegan, IL, Sarasota, FL
Re: A Question For Mainesail

I also do crimp and solder. I also apply a high quality heat shrink color-coded to the connection after soldering
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,703
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
A properly soldered joint is very strong and also electrically elcellent but if making terminations for a boat it is very wise to crimp first then solder. Never solder then crimp.

Here's what NASA has to say on that:

"4.3.4 Crimping. Stranded wire shall be used for crimping (Requirement). Crimping of solid wire is prohibited. Crimping of solder tinned wire is prohibited."


Soldering after a crimp has been made is fine provided you:

A) Know what you are doing (most don't).
B) Use a heat sink to prevent solder creep up the wire
C) Use the correct solder.
D) Use proper strain relief/adhesive lined heat shrink.
E) Use the proper crimp terminals for soldering which are DIFFERENT, and non-insulated and rarely as robustly built as the insulated ones or heat shrink ones.
F) Use the proper crimp tool for the solder/crimp terminals which most don't own or have if they have been using a crimper designed for insulated crimps.

In short doing crimp then solder requires different tools, proper training and more labor and will not really yield much if any better end result for what you need it for.

The ABYC actually specifically bans solder as the sole means of connection and this includes Western Union Splices or any other form of wire twisting in an attempt to to make a "mechanical connection".

The problem with solder is usually with folks who don't know how to do it and in my experience that is perhaps 90% of folks. I have rarely come across a properly soldered termination in boats. Sure you fidn them but they are about as rare as a Nun in a g-string bikini.

When soldering you should always use a proper heat sink to prevent solder creep up the wire and also make sure you are using the right solder with no acid. Soldering old dirty wire is a futile effort and the solder usually won't even stick to it. Cold solder joints are very common in DIY applications. I found many on my own boat as it had been owned by an EE who knew his stuff book wise but had no clue how to solder. The actual panel made at the factory was soldered on the back side and there were three failed solder joints.

The reason the ABYC bans solder as a primary termination tool is due to a massive case history in the industry of solder failures. ABYC is evidence based and the evidence is overwhelmingly against solder in the marine industry.

Crimping with the "proper tools" is also part of the ABYC E-11 standard and when done in this manner crimps are far more repeatable and reliable even in the hands of a DIY. The failures are usually where the solder crept up the wire and created a hard spot and the wire fractured. UL 1426 wire is finely stranded for a very good reason, vibration. Soldering and allowing creep causes a hard spot that can fracture over time and use. I have witnessed this and come across it many times. I have owned two boats owned by EE's and they were the absolute worst solderers in the world. Nearly 20-25% of the soldered connections on my old C-30 were faulty to the point of not even working. I was forced to rip it out and start from scratch.

Here's Calder's take:

Nigel Calder from Boat Owners Mechanical & Electrical Manual Pg. 122 said:
Soldering is a controversial subject. A properly soldered connection creates the best electrical connection, but all too often the soldering is not done properly. In any case, ABYC regulations require that every joint have a mechanical means of connection other than solder. The reason for this is that if the joint gets hot (through excessive resistance or a high current flow) the solder may melt and the joint fall apart. So solder often becomes just an adjunct to a crimped connection, but in this case the solder wicking up the cable creates a hard spot, which is then liable to fail from vibration. The concensus among professionals is that a properly made crimp, done with the proper tools, is frequently a more reliable termination than soldering.

There really is no need to solder a well crimped connection. Doing so and doing it properly requires a whole different set of tools and terminals. Nearly every wire termination in both the aircraft and auto industry is crimped.

Using standard yellow, blue & red terminals is not advised for solder/crimp because to do it right you would first have to make the crimp with the yellow, blue or red insulation on the terminal and then cut off the insulation and solder it. The insulation is a critical part of the tolerance for the crimped terminal and cutting it off first will yield a poorly crimped terminal.

After all that you'd then need to get some adhesive lined heat shrink and HOPE you make a good seal. It is FAR easier to use the right tool and pre-made heat shrink crimp terminals. Good ones are 100% water tight and DIY heat shrinking is often not, especially on ring terminals.

The other concern is that with boats corrosion is a big problem and corroded terminals can cause resistance, resistance causes heat and heat can melt solder. If the terminal is not crimped on it can literally fall out of the terminal and you'll have a live hot dangling wire. Of course by that time you would have hopefully smelled the meting insulation...

You can crimp and solder, but with the right tools it is a lot more work for little to no gain and only the added risk of creating hard spot that could possibly fracture.

So how good are ashesive lined crimps? As one who lives in the North East, where nearly every home has a deep well, with LONG wire runs and fairly high amp draws, we just don't see failures. Boat interiors usually only get humid. Consider how "humid" the wires are that heat shrink sealed 200+ feet below the surface, that live underwater for their entire working life span and that last for 15, 20 years or more or until the well pump fails? Almost every industry uses crimps reliably, without solder, including aerospace, and have been for years and years and years with very high reliability and repeatability.

The well at our old house was 245 feet deep and a true artesian. It over flowed out the well cap almost all year. The crimps were about 240 feet below ground and totally submerged. The three wires connecting the pumps were simply crimped and heat shrinked with what are called Stakons. Stakons are nothing more than adhesive lined butt splice crimps. These bare copper, non-tinned, wires had been under water for over 13 years only crimped and heat shrinked. Something to consider..


The ABYC standards are a very good guide to use. Here are a few good points from E-11:

"Conductors shall be at least 16 AWG. EXCEPTIONS: 1. 18 AWG conductors may be used if included with other conductors in a sheath and do not extend more than 30 inches (760mm) outside the sheath.” 11.16.1.1.2."


"Conductors used for panelboard or switchboard main feeders, bilge blowers, electronic equipment, navigation lights, and other circuits where voltage drop must be kept to a minimum, shall be sized for a voltage drop not to exceed three percent”.

"Conductors used for lighting, other than navigation lights, and other circuits where voltage drop is not critical, shall be sized for a voltage drop not to exceed 10 percent.”

"Solderless crimp on connectors shall be attached with the type of crimping tools designed for the connector used, and that will produce a connection meeting the requirements of E-11.16.3.3.” 11.16.3.8."

"Current-carrying conductors shall be routed as high as practicable above the bilge water level and other areas where water may accumulate. If conductors must be routed in the bilge or other areas where water may accumulate, the connections shall be watertight.”11.16.4.1.6."

"Terminal connectors shall be the ring or captive spade types.” 11.16.3.4."

"Twist on connectors, i.e., wire nuts, shall not be used.” 11.16.3.6."

"Ring and captive spade type terminal connectors shall be the same nominal size as the stud.” 11.16.4.1.12."


"The construction of insulated cables and conductors shall conform with the requirements of: 11.16.1.2.2.1. UL 1426, Cables for Boats…”11.16.1.2.2.”

"Solder shall not be the sole means of mechanical connection in any circuit.”11.16.3.7."




If you use poor crimp tools than moisture could find it's way into the terminal as seen here after being cut open. Notice the individual wire strands still visible.


In a properly formed crimp there will be no room for moisture creep:



I made these crimps during the re-wire of my own boat ago and heat shrunk them. To make all 20 took all of about 6-7 minutes. I pay about 0.38 ea for these FTZ 10-12ga ring terminals, so they don't have to be expensive either.

Crimped & Shrunk - Top
Crimped - Bottom


You can see the pile of crimped wires in the back ground.
 
Sep 25, 2008
7,392
Alden 50 Sarasota, Florida
I think much of the crimp v. solder discussion fails to fully understand the concept of proper soldering. The first step in any good solder connection is to ensure you have a tight mechanical connection, e.g., crimping. Without a good mechanical connection, any soldered connection will eventually fail. Conversely, without solder, any mechanical connection can eventually fail.
Rather than the either/or debate which so frequently happens in these threads, it is important to not lose sight of the fact that doing both, as some have suggested already, is usually the best technique.
 
Jul 1, 1998
3,062
Hunter Legend 35 Poulsbo/Semiahmoo WA
Don't use solder

The problem with soldered connections is the solder wicks up the stranded wire and stops at a point, and this is where the problem is. If the wire can move or vibrate there can eventually be failure there.

The above was told to me by a Coast Guard radar/electronics technician as the reason why they did not use solder.

Boats have diesel engines which vibrate and can cause sympathetic vibrations among other things onboard, including wire.

Diesel engine vibrations may be a contributor to why so many shorepower adapters have overheating problems because the conductors are often not well supported to prevent vibration and the set screws on the soft copper can eventually become loose (loose their tight seating) due to the vibrations in the wire.

Protruding brass fittings on the engine, such as those that might be used to oil pressure sending units, should be avoided. Try and use a sending uint without an adapter fitting.
 
Last edited:
Aug 4, 2009
204
Oday 25 Olympia
John
Wouldn't the up-wire "hinge point" of the soldered connection act just the same as any other up-wire hinge/clamping point? In any case I would think that a clamp close to the connection should take any wire strains rather than the connection itself.
Geohan
 
Jan 10, 2009
590
PDQ 32 Deale, MD
The real point--except for the odd small or solid wire where crimping is not practical--is that there is simply no point in soldering a GOOD crimp connection, and it can do harm.

Last year I tested hundreds of crimp conections in a salt spray chamber, with elevated temperatures and drying cycles. The water was several times as salty as the ocean. This was done as part of an article. I had spade connection fail, I had terminal blocks fall apart, and I had wires turn black and crumble. I did NOT create even one high-resistance connections (tested under rated load). Even ordanary (non-tinned) wires made failure proof crimps.

I do know how to solder, but it would not improve on a ratchet crimper and a heat seal on good wire. Solder ONLY when crimping is not possible.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,703
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
The real point--except for the odd small or solid wire where crimping is not practical--is that there is simply no point in soldering a GOOD crimp connection, and it can do harm.

Last year I tested hundreds of crimp conections in a salt spray chamber, with elevated temperatures and drying cycles. The water was several times as salty as the ocean. This was done as part of an article. I had spade connection fail, I had terminal blocks fall apart, and I had wires turn black and crumble. I did NOT create even one high-resistance connections (tested under rated load). Even ordanary (non-tinned) wires made failure proof crimps.

I do know how to solder, but it would not improve on a ratchet crimper and a heat seal on good wire. Solder ONLY when crimping is not possible.
It should be noted that catsailor knows his stuff and that article was the one published in Practical Sailor. He's being modest but his test was well thought out, well executed and serves to reinforce & confirm what the ABYC, NASA the auto and aerospace industries already know crimps made properly work very, very well.

To Don's point a PROPERLY soldered connection ON TOP of a crimp is okay provided it is done PROPERLY. I would say that 90% of the soldered joints I've seen on boats were never done PROPERLY.

Most installers or DIY's don't even use the right crimp tool or the proper crimp/solder terminals. Crimp/solder terminals are VERY different than crimp only terminals and the tool is also very different..

Below is what typical crimp & solder terminal looks like. In over 25 years I have yet to see but one or two professionals or DIY's use the right crimp/solder terminals or even own the tool to make these crimps with these terminals. I'm sure there may be a few out there but in the hundreds of crimped & soldered connections I've seen I have all but once or twice seen them done PROPERLY or with the right terminals for crimp/solder..

Solder/Crimp Male Spade (keep in mid spades are not the best idea on boats)

Solder/Crimp Female Spade


Crimp/Solder Rings are very hard to find, especially in a robust heavy duty grade, most are for electronics and are lightly built. The problem is if you PROPERLY crimp them, with the right tool, the solder has no way to wick up INTO the crimp thus you are only really sealing the end with solder.


I'm curious as to how many of you who crimp/solder use the right tool and the right terminals?

P.S. If the solder has wicked up through the crimp from the ring end and into the wire, as I have seen soooo many times, when IMPROPER crimp/solder terminals were used, then you own the wrong crimp tool. Solder can not and will not wick through a properly done crimp if the proper tool was used.
 
Jan 10, 2009
590
PDQ 32 Deale, MD
As I look at mainsail's crimp cut-aways I am forced to wonder, where does the solder go? Not into the crimp. Only on the outside.

I remember the first time I saw those posted. I'd never thought to look that closely; at that time I simple knew I didn't trust anything where the wire could pull out.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,703
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
As I look at mainsail's crimp cut-aways I am forced to wonder, where does the solder go? Not into the crimp. Only on the outside.

I remember the first time I saw those posted. I'd never thought to look that closely; at that time I simple knew I didn't trust anything where the wire could pull out.
This is correct with a PROPER crimp tool the solder will only coat the outside of the terminal and there will be no 'wicking" because it physically can't go there.. This is why actual solder/crimp terminals, with the right crimp tool, fold over the barrel and split it so you can flow solder onto the wire in front of and on top of the crimp. Crimp only terminals, the ones I always see soldered, are not intended to do this.
 

BobM

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Jun 10, 2004
3,269
S2 9.2A Winthrop, MA
Maine, I saw a new type of connector where the connection is essentially molded. You put a mold around the connection and fill the mold with melted plastic using a hot glue gun type of affair. It wasn't touted for marine use, I saw it in an automotive magazine, but it certainly seems like it would be good for marine use.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,703
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Complete and utter waste of money.:doh: Perhaps no one let them know that adhesive lined butt splices have been keeping well pump wires BONE DRY for over 30 years..... The FTZ butt splices I use are already 100% water tight and the whole process takes less than 60 seconds......:)

Also I just watched the video and that crimp he made is trash..... He probably does need to glue it together with that tool...:D
 

kenn

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Apr 18, 2009
1,271
CL Sandpiper 565 Toronto
Another well-researched and presented post (in this case an answer) from MS :)

Also 100% in agreement with catsailor that there is simply no benefit in also soldering a properly made crimped connection.

ABYC brings up the point that an improperly crimped connection (eg amateur with the non-ratcheting cheap crimpers) that is then soldered, is still inferior to a properly crimped connection, because in the case of an overheating terminal (eg due to looseness) it's very easy to get up to the melt-point of solder, and you then only have the weak crimp... lubricated with liquid solder. It will fail sooner than a proper crimp alone.

As an EE dropout, I had to earn my living as a tech, so I soldered almost daily for 20+ years. I can solder - everything from surface-mount parts and AWG 40 wire, all the way up to 50 kW transmitter grounding; also copper plumbing -and in some of my boat projects, I do make soldered connections in the internals. Nonetheless, for marine interconnection I just crimp, and I only advocate using proper crimp connections. Don't solder.
 
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