A “green”dilemma. What would you do?

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jviss

.
Feb 5, 2004
7,089
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
The basis of the GHT is some chemicals in the atmosphere can absorb and hold more heat than others.
No, I beg to differ. The GHG theory is that CO2 absorbs long wavelength IR emitted by earth and re-radiates it to earth, hence increasing the earth's temperature. Since this has been piecemeal debunked, for example, the proof that there's no "down welling" of IR, AGW advocates have pivoted to other mechanisms, never admitting that "that's not it!' - except, of course, Roger Revelle, Al Gore's mentor, who started all of this hokum and later recanted it.

CO2 doesn't "hold more heat" in the atmosphere, it will immediately (if not sooner!) conduct excess heat to adjacent molecules in the atmosphere. It can do this by conduction, or by emitting a photon, the latter the basis of the original GHG theory. But, it was soon shown that the mean time to conduct versus emit a photon is about a million times shorter, meaning the emission never happens, in practical terms.

As far as the experiment is concerned, how do you account for the fact that CO2 is transparent to short wave UV, the stuff coming from the sun?
 

jviss

.
Feb 5, 2004
7,089
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
If you are going to make references like this it needs to have a reputable citation to support your claim.
Here's a quote from a "newsy" article that points this out:

"But the tide was turning with Roger Revelle. He was forced out at Harvard at 65 and returned to California and a semi retirement position at UCSD. There he had time to rethink Carbon Dioxide and the greenhouse effect. The man who had inspired Al Gore and given the UN the basic research it needed to launch its Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change was having second thoughts. In 1988 he wrote two cautionary letters to members of Congress. He wrote, “My own personal belief is that we should wait another 10 or 20 years to really be convinced that the greenhouse effect is going to be important for human beings, in both positive and negative ways.” He added, “…we should be careful not to arouse too much alarm until the rate and amount of warming becomes clearer.”

And in 1991 Revelle teamed up with Chauncey Starr, founding director of the Electric Power Research Institute and Fred Singer, the first director of the U.S. Weather Satellite Service, to write an article for Cosmos magazine. They urged more research and begged scientists and governments not to move too fast to curb greenhouse CO2 emissions because the true impact of carbon dioxide was not at all certain, and curbing the use of fossil fuels could have a huge, negative impact on the economy, jobs, and our standard of living. Considerable controversy still surrounds the authorship of this article. However, I have discussed this collaboration with Dr. Singer and he assures me that Revelle was considerably more certain than he was at the time that carbon dioxide was not a problem."

The Amazing Story Behind the Global Warming Scam

Just to help put this in perspective,

"The Keeling curve continues to show a steady rise in CO2 in the atmosphere during the period since oil and coal were discovered and used by man. Carbon dioxide has increased from the 1958 reading of 315 to 385 parts per million in 2008. But, despite the increases, it is still only a trace gas in the atmosphere. The percentage of the atmosphere that is CO2 remains tiny, about 3.8 hundredths of one percent by volume and 41 hundredths of one percent by weight. And, by the way, only a fraction of that fraction is from mankind's use of fossil fuels. The best estimate is that atmospheric CO2 is 75 percent natural and 25 percent the result of civilization.

Several hypotheses emerged in the 70s and 80s about how this tiny atmospheric component of CO2 might cause a significant warming. But they remained unproven. As years have passed, the scientists have kept reaching out for evidence of the warming and proof of their theories. And, the money and environmental claims kept on building up."

So, the contribution to atmospheric CO2 by man's activities is about .001% of the atmosphere. And that's causing the planet to warm wildly out of control, and sufficient reason to cripple economies, and throw untold millions into the dark, into poverty, and stilt their societies' development?
 
Jan 11, 2014
13,039
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
Here's a quote from a "newsy" article that points this out:

"But the tide was turning with Roger Revelle. He was forced out at Harvard at 65 and returned to California and a semi retirement position at UCSD. There he had time to rethink Carbon Dioxide and the greenhouse effect. The man who had inspired Al Gore and given the UN the basic research it needed to launch its Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change was having second thoughts. In 1988 he wrote two cautionary letters to members of Congress. He wrote, “My own personal belief is that we should wait another 10 or 20 years to really be convinced that the greenhouse effect is going to be important for human beings, in both positive and negative ways.” He added, “…we should be careful not to arouse too much alarm until the rate and amount of warming becomes clearer.”

And in 1991 Revelle teamed up with Chauncey Starr, founding director of the Electric Power Research Institute and Fred Singer, the first director of the U.S. Weather Satellite Service, to write an article for Cosmos magazine. They urged more research and begged scientists and governments not to move too fast to curb greenhouse CO2 emissions because the true impact of carbon dioxide was not at all certain, and curbing the use of fossil fuels could have a huge, negative impact on the economy, jobs, and our standard of living. Considerable controversy still surrounds the authorship of this article. However, I have discussed this collaboration with Dr. Singer and he assures me that Revelle was considerably more certain than he was at the time that carbon dioxide was not a problem."

The Amazing Story Behind the Global Warming Scam

Just to help put this in perspective,

"The Keeling curve continues to show a steady rise in CO2 in the atmosphere during the period since oil and coal were discovered and used by man. Carbon dioxide has increased from the 1958 reading of 315 to 385 parts per million in 2008. But, despite the increases, it is still only a trace gas in the atmosphere. The percentage of the atmosphere that is CO2 remains tiny, about 3.8 hundredths of one percent by volume and 41 hundredths of one percent by weight. And, by the way, only a fraction of that fraction is from mankind's use of fossil fuels. The best estimate is that atmospheric CO2 is 75 percent natural and 25 percent the result of civilization.

Several hypotheses emerged in the 70s and 80s about how this tiny atmospheric component of CO2 might cause a significant warming. But they remained unproven. As years have passed, the scientists have kept reaching out for evidence of the warming and proof of their theories. And, the money and environmental claims kept on building up."

So, the contribution to atmospheric CO2 by man's activities is about .001% of the atmosphere. And that's causing the planet to warm wildly out of control, and sufficient reason to cripple economies, and throw untold millions into the dark, into poverty, and stilt their societies' development?
Thanks for providing that article from 2009 from what appears to be a right wing TV station in San Diego with no national affiliation. (I was kind of surprised it wasn't affiliated with Fox News).

Perhaps you missed this paragraph:

But the tide was turning with Roger Revelle. He was forced out at Harvard at 65 and returned to California and a semi retirement position at UCSD. There he had time to rethink Carbon Dioxide and the greenhouse effect. The man who had inspired Al Gore and given the UN the basic research it needed to launch its Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change was having second thoughts. In 1988 he wrote two cautionary letters to members of Congress. He wrote, “My own personal belief is that we should wait another 10 or 20 years to really be convinced that the greenhouse effect is going to be important for human beings, in both positive and negative ways.” He added, “…we should be careful not to arouse too much alarm until the rate and amount of warming becomes clearer.”
Emphasis added

If I am to correctly understand your position, it is based on an article written in 2009 referencing a letter written in 1988 that says "we should wait 10 or 20 years" to better understand the greenhouse effect. If my math is correct, you are basing your opinion on a letter written 34 years ago that says we should wait 10 or 20 years to be convinced of the greenhouse effect.

In 1998 I might have cautiously accepted your position as plausible, however to maintain that position in 2022 based on a letter written 34 years ago that says wait 10 or 20 years to see the data, is just simply ignorant.
 
Jan 19, 2010
12,610
Hobie 16 & Rhodes 22 Skeeter Charleston
Yup! There going to have to move this one to the sail call lounge.:facepalm:
 
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jviss

.
Feb 5, 2004
7,089
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
is just simply ignorant.
And with that, with the ad hominem, name calling, I am done with this thread. (If you can't make your point without attacking your opponent, and need to resort to name calling, then you aren't able to make your point.)
 

jviss

.
Feb 5, 2004
7,089
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
BTW, Roger Revelle died in 1991. Do you suggest I dig him up to testify here?
 
Jan 11, 2014
13,039
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
And with that, with the ad hominem, name calling, I am done with this thread. (If you can't make your point without attacking your opponent, and need to resort to name calling, then you aren't able to make your point.)
An ad hominem attack is calling the person who makes an argument an ignoramus. Calling an argument or position ignorant is a statement of opinion on the logical quality of the argument. Would it have been better to call your position an incredibly poorly formed position?
 

DArcy

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Feb 11, 2017
1,770
Islander Freeport 36 Ottawa
No, I beg to differ. The GHG theory is that CO2 absorbs long wavelength IR emitted by earth and re-radiates it to earth, hence increasing the earth's temperature. Since this has been piecemeal debunked, for example, the proof that there's no "down welling" of IR, AGW advocates have pivoted to other mechanisms, never admitting that "that's not it!' - except, of course, Roger Revelle, Al Gore's mentor, who started all of this hokum and later recanted it.

CO2 doesn't "hold more heat" in the atmosphere, it will immediately (if not sooner!) conduct excess heat to adjacent molecules in the atmosphere. It can do this by conduction, or by emitting a photon, the latter the basis of the original GHG theory. But, it was soon shown that the mean time to conduct versus emit a photon is about a million times shorter, meaning the emission never happens, in practical terms.

As far as the experiment is concerned, how do you account for the fact that CO2 is transparent to short wave UV, the stuff coming from the sun?
Is your claim that there is no correlation between atmospheric CO2 concentration and global temperatures?

I'm not saying humans are the only cause of the current increase in CO2 or global temperature but there does appear to be a strong correlation between the C02 in the atmosphere and temperature.

Here is a concise article about the impacts of increasing CO2 in the atmosphere and the impacts on our oceans (to bring it back to sailing ;))

And I don't consider Dave's comment name calling, more an opinion on your view, although I see how it supports your decision to exit the conversation when you are challenged. This debate rages on and will obviously not be resolved, or even change anyone's opinion, here.
 

walt

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Jun 1, 2007
3,541
Macgregor 26S Hobie TI Ridgway Colorado
Jviss, thanks for that reference so we know where you are coming from. Looks like you picked a newspaper article rather than peer reviewed science. Way better than someone just bearing their testimony to what they heard on AM radio.

It appears to me that the article comes to the conclusion that CO2 cant be the problem because the concentration is a small number LOL. Good grief.. I dont think science works that way.

Lets look at a few more sources just in case maybe your "model" that I guess you came up with is incorrect. How Exactly Does Carbon Dioxide Cause Global Warming?

With CO2 and other greenhouse gases, it’s different. Carbon dioxide, for example, absorbs energy at a variety of wavelengths between 2,000 and 15,000 nanometers — a range that overlaps with that of infrared energy. As CO2 soaks up this infrared energy, it vibrates and re-emits the infrared energy back in all directions. About half of that energy goes out into space, and about half of it returns to Earth as heat, contributing to the ‘greenhouse effect.’
Another link to read How do greenhouse gases trap heat in the atmosphere?

No, I beg to differ. The GHG theory is that CO2 absorbs long wavelength IR emitted by earth and re-radiates it to earth, hence increasing the earth's temperature. Since this has been piecemeal debunked, for example, the proof that there's no "down welling" of IR, AGW advocates have pivoted to other mechanisms, never admitting that "that's not it!' - except, of course, Roger Revelle, Al Gore's mentor, who started all of this hokum and later recanted it.
Would you please provide the reference for your above statement. Was it the newspaper article you posted?

FYI, posting references will keep this civil, we can just argue with the reference.
 
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Jan 11, 2014
13,039
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
Jviss, thanks for that reference so we know where you are coming from. Looks like you picked a newspaper article rather than peer reviewed science. Way better than someone just bearing their testimony to what they heard on AM radio.

It appears to me that the article comes to the conclusion that CO2 cant be the problem because the concentration is a small number LOL. Good grief.. I dont think science works that way.

Lets look at a few more sources just in case maybe your "model" that I guess you came up with is incorrect. How Exactly Does Carbon Dioxide Cause Global Warming?



Another link to read How do greenhouse gases trap heat in the atmosphere?

A “green”dilemma. What would you do?

Would you please provide the reference for your above statement. Was it the newspaper article you posted?

FYI, posting references will keep this civil, we can just argue with the reference.
Great articles, easy to understand and relevant. Thanks for taking the time to find and post them.
 

walt

.
Jun 1, 2007
3,541
Macgregor 26S Hobie TI Ridgway Colorado


This image in post 49 is interesting. I didnt see where it came from but it looks like the ice core records of CO2 and temperature going back 800,000 years. FYI, this link CO2 as a feedback and forcing in the climate system » Yale Climate Connections talks about this time period, what likely causes the temperature variations and the relation of CO2 and temperature as both feedback and forcing.

Its not a long article so I wont pull out snips but I think its interesting.
 

jssailem

SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
Oct 22, 2014
23,335
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
On average, electric vehicles generate a negative environmental benefit of about -0.5 cents per mile relative to comparable gasoline vehicles (-1.5 cents per mile for vehicles driven out- side metropolitan areas).

The most recent JD Power study, which included Tesla in its industry calculation for the first time, found that battery-electric vehicles (EVs) and plug-in hybrid vehicles have more quality issues than gas-powered ones.

Go green with your eyes wide open....:yikes:
 
Oct 26, 2008
6,302
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ


This image in post 49 is interesting. I didnt see where it came from but it looks like the ice core records of CO2 and temperature going back 800,000 years. FYI, this link CO2 as a feedback and forcing in the climate system » Yale Climate Connections talks about this time period, what likely causes the temperature variations and the relation of CO2 and temperature as both feedback and forcing.

Its not a long article so I wont pull out snips but I think its interesting.
Call me stupid but doesn't this graph make it look like the current spike isn't any different than at least 4 major spikes and at least 9 spikes in the past 800,000 years? Earth has been just fine in all that time. What are we worried about?
 
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SBO Police Bot

Staff member
Jan 8, 2016
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Your friendly neighborhood Police Bot has read enough to see the OP’s question answered. This thread is locked before it goes any further into politics.
 
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