A dissenting voice

newly anonymous · Jun 7, 2001

amen

I have certainly been bristling to read our so-called cruising expert relegate modern Hunters to "light coastal cruising." I can only hope that my fellow Hunter owners realize that there are still a few troglodytes out there who would never go to sea in anything less than a full-keel, split-rigged leadmine incapable of exceeding 5 knots in anything under a Force 6 blow. In the opinions of some, the main purpose of a cruising boat is to carry spare parts, and vessels fitted out with anything more comfortable than pipe berths risk the possibility that cruisers might actually be able to roll over while napping in a seaway. Throwback cruising "experts," who all seem to worship in the shrine of St. Crealock, will routinely laden their craft with five anchors and seven hundred feet of chain, and have absolutely no clue as to how elegant offshore sailing can really be. Spade rudder? Blasphemy! Fin keel? Too fast! Furling sails? DANGER... I'll be sailing an ultralight Wyliecat 30 in the next Pacific Cup to Hawaii. It displaces all of 5500 pounds. Compare that to the 20,000 lb displacement of my 410, with its 7,500 lbs. of ballast and its benign SA/D ratio of 18.2. Good grief! By modern standards, the 410 is a fairly conservative moderate-displacement boat. The times, they change. I realize that spade rudders were risky things back in the days when rudders were built of wood, but....

Tim Schaaf · Jun 7, 2001

I used to be embarrassed...

to confess to owning a Hunter, until I realized my boat kept standing up to the rigors of SF Bay, while its critics were at the docks repairing their boats. This remains as true now as it was then, nineteen years ago, the repair part, that is, because I don't get embarrassed anymore. People even compliment me on my classic, no less! Back then, who knew?

ted · Jun 7, 2001

dave's 90 % right

im currently in a tight spot, i want to sell my 35.5 which i love to death, but the more i look around for a replacement, something more designed for off shore work (40 ft range) the more i realize its going to cost me big $, why would i want a boat other then a hunter to go offshore? simple ive been offshore in my hunter and a heavy disp full keel boat. ive had the privelage of being in sea conditions that 98% of boat owners including hunters have never expierenced (30ft seas, 50-60 kts wind) true my 35.5 handled it with flying colors, but when you think about the prospect of being in those conditions for 4,5,or maybe 6 days, trust me you dont want to be in a hunter or catalina, you lose your pride real quick. with me its not a quality of construction question, its a design question, they simply arnt designed for rough weather or multipal years of abuse. for now my plans are to make my 35.5 the best equiped coastal cruiser/light offshore use hunter out thier, i will keep everyone posted on my upgrades

jcherubini · Jun 7, 2001

Speed at sea.

I agree with all of what's being said here, especially Phil's comment that ALL boats need to be well maintained and inspected before anyone goes embarking anywhere on them. And another thing-- Hunter has always tried to peg the 'Chevy station-wagon market' (don't bristle at that because we know all the attributes of the 350 Mouse motor!). It suggests a safe, reliable product easily afforded and maintained that is more than appropriate for respectable family use. Not necessarily fancy but a very good buy all-in, and easily made to perform exceptionally well.The other thing is that I also am repulsed when people claim the Westsail 32 (one of which I recall spent 7 days hove-to from NY to Bermuda) and St Crealock's boats are the only things worthy of the sea. My experience with the Cherubini 44, a 4'8" deep, 29,000-lb (bordering on ultralight) boat of 1100 ft of sail, reminds me that in many cases a seakindly-shaped hull and fast cruising speed can be absolute Godsends when it comes to gnarly weather. No 5-kt 'escape pod' can ever be considered 'seaworthy' when compared to the prospect of flying AWAY from that weather at 8-10 kts with no sweat. Speed cuts down the elapsed time of a passage and therefore also the potential of risk incurred by spending too much time out there.Lastly the biggest consideration of all is that of the seaworthiness of the skipper and crew. Idiots have been lost in very good boats probably as often as good sailors have been lost in bad ones. It's my hope that no one goes to sea in a boat that is TOO seaworthy for them-- it's entirely possible that a given boat's exceptional seaworthiness can become a false sense of security for a crew guilty of secondary ignorance.Knowledge and preparation are key.JC 2

Eric · Jun 7, 2001

More Hunter support

PhilI agree completly! For what its worth, I have worked in aircraft structural engineering for 20+ years and have had some experiance with composite structures(the spelling will give me away). Let me offer a few observations for boats built after the late 80'(I am not familiar with earlier mobels) . First the single most important attribute Hunter has, is it is an engineered boat with a pan grid molded to the hull. This means two things, first someone who understands material properties & structural design was involved in the design/construction, second stiffness and stength are understood. Hunter also builds their boats on the heavy side when you consider they use a grid. For example look at an Ericson 38 and a Hunter 37.5. Almost anyone would say what a great boat the Ericson is(and I agree) but look at the displacement. Ericson 14400 Lbs Disp. Hunter ~16500 Lbs. The Hunter is 2000 Lbs. heavier. The boats are very similar structually. When these factors are combined the result is a tough structure. While I know many boats are quite sound without the use of a grid, I would look very closely at any boat I was going to take offshore that did not have one. One final note for anyone who wants to defend Hunter, to a basher, just take a look under the cabin sole at the pan grid in a 376 for example then look at any other boat in that size range. It should be obvious. Well, thats my 2 cents worth.

Tom Hadoulias · Jun 8, 2001

A Fool and his money...

I have enjoyed reading the posts to this article and bravo Phil for evening the playing field and bringing up good points about preparation and experience being the key to a common sense passagemaker. I have heard the sneers of many of the fools on the dock with the big money boats who have all the stories and have never left the dock. Perhaps thier boats are inherently more prepared from the factory for bluewater work and thier design leans more to what statistically is a favoured design but that doesn't imply the Hunters, Catalinas and the like are eggshells and will break in half when the seas get above a moderate chop! I've owned a Pacific Seacraft, great boat! I still have all the brochures about what a great around the world passagemaker it was and how many circumnavigations where made with her sisterships. I've had that 25' boat in some nasty situations and I can tell you that I would take my Hunter 37C over her anyday. I really don't feel that I've compromised anything with my Cherubini Hunter structually although I must admit the vessel was not fitted out as well as the P.S. was. Well I can fix that! After a lot of reasearch I decided that some good money spent on the 37C would give me all the blue water boat I needed at a an extreme cost savings over some of the "notorious" cruisers of late. I'd rather spend the money on cruising. As further knowledge for you 37C owners out there who have some cruising plans but are unsure of your vessels capabilities check out John Holtrop's April Cruising World article regarding the best offshore cruisers for under $100,000.00. He used a miriad of comparisons based on the best designs of the most prominant designers of our time and pluged in values of what makes a good cruiser. The 37C made the list, right alongside Valiant, Pacific Seacraft, Cabo Rico and the likes. Imagine that! Check it for yourself at www.johnsboatstuff.com/Articles/lowcost.htm. Read what goes into a seaworthy boat, it is very well explained and a lot of good info about design parameters for a stable vessel are there. Also, John Vought's (may be misspelled, sorry) "A Seaworthy Sailboat" is good reading about what constitutes a capable boat. The fact that a boat has a fin keel or a spade rudder does not necessarily exclude it from being a good passagepaker, it just doesn't last as long when run aground on a reef or coral head! Here is where experience makes up a void in the boat. To my dismay as to boat construction, as an engineer with NASA I was looking for the absolute values of how a boat is designed for strength. After all, that's how they build airplanes and bridges. We'll guess what? none of the boat manufactures I am aware of perform stress analysis and destructive testing to the levels of extreme ocean conditions that might be encountered. And in spite of that, you just don't hear of boats breaking in half very often. Testimony to the fact that the designers and builders are skilled enough in thier craft to provide you a good basic hull at least. It's the outfitting and preparations that follow that make the boat, and the cost of the boat. Sorry for the rambling... I have come to the conclusion that boats are a very sujective topic at best and the variance between them is tremendous. Not everyone can afford a mega yacht with a proven track record so those of us with less financial fortutude need to find another way. Value becomes paramount but not at the expense of safety. Knowledge and preparation can make up a lot of the difference in the equasion. For my dollar, My Hunter will meet all the needs I have without compromising safety including passagemaking intentions. If I change my mind I'll let you know but at this point, If I had more to spend I'd probably upgrade to a bigger, newer passage 420 or 450, outfit her and go without looking back. By the way, a friend who just completed a solo Atlantic crossing in a Catalina 36, in some pretty rough weather, was asked if he would do it again in the same boat or what he would change if additional funds were available to him. Being a Merchant Mariner and a man of few words, having a lifetime of ocean experience on virtually every one of the planets oceans and on many types of vessels his reply was; I wish I could find a good woman to go with me to take care of the boredom and share the watches. The boat took care of itself!Tom Hadoulias

Tom · Jun 8, 2001

Tom, who was that, who solo sailed across the

Atlantic in a Catalina 36 ? (Just gotta love that Cat 36).I would love to read more about his trip. I know you mentioned that he is a man of few words, but possibly you could coax him into writing a short story for the Cat 36 website http://www.catalina36.org/index.htm (see link below) .I'm sure lots of people (Cat, Bene and Hunter owners) would like to read about a cruiser, sailing the open ocean. in what would be called just a "common" production cruising sailboat.

newly anonymous · Jun 8, 2001

good point

A good point, JC II, about passage speed. A boat making a 500 nm passage at eight knots will take a little more than 2.5 days, while a boat making the same passage at 5 knots will take more than 4 days. Think about the difference in trying to forecast weather windows for the two different boats! And think of the difference in terms of crew fatigue, a factor which causes far more boats to be lost than spade rudders snapping off.

Jake · Jun 8, 2001

Price/Value

Some rambling thoughts:I read the lead article in USA Today about Baby Boomer rock 'n' roll bands this morning. It's a story about us'n Boomers continuing our quest for adventure (remember "do your own thing."?) As a fifty year old, with children and a pending grandchild, I have to weigh my thrills with responsibility. My Hunter (410) let me into an affordable boat that is great in our home waters of the Pamlico, Albemarle, Neuse River, and offshore coastal sailing. Offline was comfortable enough for 75 straight days on-board from NC to FLA. Sailed it all out in 32-knot winds. Docked it in Myrtle Beach in a 29-knot gust between pilings 15' wide and never touched the hull to the pilings or finger pier. Couldn't literally get off the docks in Fernadina in 42 knot winds and pounded dockside for two days. I learned my boat. And _she_ grew on me every day. Yet, there was plenty of room to even get away from my wife of 23 years (or was it the opposite?)when we had a few spats. (We had looked at Island Packets. My wife and I looked at each other and said, immediately, no way we could last on this boat is such cramped quarters. The heck with pounding in heavy seas, we would kill each other in a dead calm in that close of quarters. The other deciding factor in not choosing this boat was when the skipper/owner/broker went behind us and literally wiped down everything we touched. This was not a club we wanted to belong to.)Like downhill snow skiing, the better you get, the more you trust yourself and your equipment, the tougher the slopes you hit. Who wants to stay on the blue runs all day. A few double blacks, a few blacks and more blue runs. You push yourself and you grow.We are about to embark on a trip to Bermuda in 10 days. I think we are doing it wisely. The emergency equipment is provisioned to the hilt: spares for just about everything, drogue (for storms and steering when we lose our rudder) G-PIRB, liferaft, two horse shoes, strobes and whistles everywhere; GPSs out the Yin-yang, SSB, even a Sat phone (this one was for our 20-year-old daughter who was going to fret every minute she couldn't get in touch with us.) --- the works.I have a great crew. I have the boat well provisioned. We just don't know how the boat will handle in heavy seas. But still, we are excited, the crew is excited. How many chances do we get to do something like this in our lives? Will we pound and shake and rattle and roll? Probably. But that's the adventure of it. Can we die? Yes. But I have done _everything_ possible to mitigate the worst. And that's about all one can do in life is mitigate disaster. But you CANNOT prevent it. Unless you want to be like 90% of the world and just talk about all the great things you want to do. And never do it.Last night I called my parents to let them know they were an emergency contact for the EPIRB. I explained to Dad what that meant: If he got a call the boat was in the water. I knew all was well when I said to Mom, "I know this sounds to you like a reckless thing." She said: "Jacob, you are doing the things we always wished we could do. What an adventure you will have --- one way or another."We have our boats today. And our adventures today. Price/value.Jake

Justin · Jun 8, 2001

John, avg. 8 knots?

John and all,I agree with your points, but realistically very few boat can average 8 knots on a passage. Perhaps the HC50 some of the time, but none of the boats under 50 feet that we'd call cruisers could do it. Sure a few might manage a 200 mile day on rare occassion, but to average that, no way. So I don't think the time difference will be that great. Using PHRF rating for a very slow boat of 250 and a fastish for a cruiser rating of 100. The rating would say that the fast boat would reach Hawaii a little of 3 days before the slow boat on a passage that would take the fast boat about 15 days. That's a 20% decrease in time and these are pretty much the absolute extremes in terms of speed that any of us on this board will ever own for cruising. If we compare similar size boats of different designs we would find rating differences of at most 50 secs/mile and often much less. That equates to 1 day saved on a trip to Hawaii which is probably the longest passage that 99% of us will ever make. My point. Longer keels and skegs do not imply that a boat is heavier or significantly slower than a fin keel spade rudder. Therefore, owning a design other than a fin keel / spade rudder does not mean the owner prefers to go slow nor will they necessarily sail slower. Heck if the full keel flies a chute in 10 knots they'll be faster than a comparable sized fin keel without a chute - 9 times out of 10. There is a lot more to speed than just what's underneath the waterline.None of the boats that any of us own on this site would qualify as fast cruisers (except perhaps the 54 & HC50 owners).PS. My family just bought it's fourth Hunter in the last 5 years. 54, 35.5, 43, and now a 45.

Tom · Jun 8, 2001

Oops sorry Phil, you are right.

It would be nice to be able to post the sailing account on both sites.2nd) Justin, you make a very valid observation on relative sailing speeds between different boats on the open ocean. And I guess I'll have to agree. One thing though, that I do think would be a very important design characteristic is how well a boat can point into weather. Its not always how fast you go, but rather how well it can go where you want it to go when it gets "snotty". If a boat really can't point into the wind, then depending on the circumstances, you'll end up having to beat-up wind for a lot longer and alot further than you might have wanted to.But, on the other hand, I'm not so sure I'd want to be in a pure racer that can point up to 30 degrees into the wind if it feels I'm getting my teeth rattled on every wave. I might be much happier on a boat that only points to 45-50 degrees but handles it in much more comfort.sigh....decisions, decisions, trade-offs,compromise.....thats the beauty of sailing and taking to the water in different designs....2 different ocean trips on the exact same course might favor one design over another............the trick is to enjoy the trip your boat was made for and to plan and really be prepared for the situations where you'd have to modify your sailing tactics due to your boat design and the conditions.

dave abt · Jun 8, 2001

Some good points

Phil,You make some good points and I certainly do not intend to or do I condone "Hunter bashing". You are absolutely correct when you suggest that any vessel should regularly check bulk heads and chain plates. My concerns regarding the chainplates on the 45's comes from personal experience on a clients' boat that did experience these very issues in moderate conditions, Yes, this could have just as easily happened on other boats.A comment that has been expressed here that I couldn't agree with more is the preparedness of the equipment and crew. We present seminars throughout the country regarding offshore preperation. In my mind, as well as those on our team, there are 3 equally important legs of a triangle to help ensure a sccessful passge. 1) the boat, 2) the equipment and 3) THE CREW. Many of the vessels that have been abandoned and left to drift over the past several years have been found weeks, months or in two cases I am personally aware of, 2 years later drifting around the Atlantic. Other than the batteries being dead, the boats were no worse for the wear. Another point well taken is the thought that people in "famous" offshore boats gain a false ense of security. I couldn't agree more. Our orgnization has the opportunity to deliver and sail just about every type of sail & power vessel manufactured in the world. In the past 12 months we have delivered erything from custom offshore racing sleds, to Hunters to Catalinas, to transoceanic trawlers and small ships. During these times we have seen many, many days of crystal clear perfect weather, but we have also seen weather that would make the heartiest captain think twice about going back out there. In any given year, most of us that do this for a living will have a trip that makes us ask if we will ever go back out again. "Yes we always seem to." A comment was made regarding a a fast boat is safer since it cuts down transit time. I agree, the shorter the transit time the better, but one must be prepared to deal with the situation that comes up when the weather does go south. Two years ago, we were 10 miles from the sea bouy at Charleston, SC. Radar was clear, as was the weather fax & local NOAA forecast. The seas were flat and we were making 7.5 knots SOG. Within 30 minutes, a micro system blew in and we were beating into 40+ knot winds against a very confused gulf stream. Within 2 hours the seas had built to 10' with about a 3 sec period. It took 10 hours to beat off that lee shore and make it to the sea bouy. These types of events are not unusual and as a result the boat, equipment & crew must be ready to deal with it. In this case, a "fast boat" would not have help us to out run the weather.There is nothing more alluring to those of us that earn our living on & from the seas than being out there. As I have indicated several times over the past few days most boats will take much more than we as crew can. If you want to get a better feel for how your particular boat, whether she be power or sail Bayliner or Nordhavn, Hunter or Valiant, talk to the delivery guys who sail these vessels through all kinds of weather day in and day out. At the end of the day, they are probably your best source of data for how your vessel will handle. These guys have nothing to gain or lose, by offering their views and experiences.As I close this long and rambling post let me add this one last thought. A dear friend of mine passed away this week. He has been planning to go cruising, and had been planning on leaving this year for the past 6 years... He never made it. We see this all too often. Go now and enjoy yourself, there is nothing more wonderful than a sunrise or sunset at sea!!!dave

ted · Jun 8, 2001

8 knots ?

on a passage (im talking 2000-2500 nm, not crosing s.f bay) if you average 5-6kts in a monohaul boat 45ft or less your doing real good, no way you could sustain 8kts with out breaking the boat or crew.

Gorodn Myers · Jun 8, 2001

8 kts More Offten Than You Think.

On a 45' boat (39' water length = 8.3 hull speed / 45' water length = 9.0 hull speed) with beam reach winds of above 15 + kts. which is very typical in the ocean, 8 kts. is very doable. When you are on a passage it is not uncommon to have a boat heading with winds coming from basically one direction for 48 hrs. plus hours.My last passage (April/May 2001) from St. Thomas, U.S.V.I. to Annapolis (over 1,400 nm.) it took 7 days (to Norfolk), always on a starboard tack until we reach the Chesapeake Bay. Five days with winds from 20 to 35 kts. from basically the same direction - hull speed the entire time. Then 2 days of motoring.A boat that can get to hull speed in less that 20 kts. can get you there faster!

Justin · Jun 8, 2001

Over 1400 in 7 days?

Gordon,You did over 1400nm in 7 days? Congratulations, that is one hell of a run that would statistically put you in the 99% for fast passages for cruising boats. On this coast we have several races from the mainland to Hawaii. It is over 2000 miles and some of the best wind you'll ever encounter. Starts out strong reaching and finishes up with tradewinds. Only the fully crewed, 40'+ racing boats with spinnakers can average 200nm / day and finish in under 10 days in this race. What you did is just short of remarkable. But don't kid yourself that that was an ordinary passage. I certainly wouldn't plan a schedule based on 200nm days in the future if I were you.One trip does not make often to me.Also, any boat is going to be fast if you make the waterline long enough. Most people can't afford a 40' waterline even from the inexpensive builders.

Don Carson · Jun 8, 2001

Thanks Dave

Dave -Nothing like stirring up emotions.

I think your input has been great. I didn't really see anything you said as specifically "Hunter bashing". I take it more from the persective of what to look at in all boats regardless of build. We Hunter owners do tend to be sensetive, however, as we have been the target of so much unfounded abuse. I get great pleasure out of these forums when people demonstrate how passionate they are about their boats. Thanks

Tim Schaaf · Jun 8, 2001

Something else to consider.....

is the fact that most of us enjoy the shear act of sailing. It may (of may not) be true that a "crab crusher" will make for a more comfortable passage. But what happens when you get there? Daysails, and coastal stuff. Although I have seen many a cruising boat down pass through here in Mexico that does not budge when not going from port to port, I think that a lot of us LIKE to sail, in between, as well. In my case, when cruising, the anchor never stays down for more than a few days in a row. I will go out sailing, even if I am not going anywhere. So, I opt for a boat that is fun to sail, and that CAN make a passage, rather than something that is a dog in less than a gale. I remember an Island Packet that my Hunter 33 could barely keep up with in the Pacific off of San Diego. But, when we would be hard on the wind coming up into San Diego Bay, I ALWAYS left her far behind. We pointed higher, sailed faster.On the issue of speed, two very close friends of mine sailed from Cabo San Lucas through the South Pacific to New Zealand last year in their thirty year old Cal 34. It is a lot like our older Hunters. This couple are young, capable, budget-minded enthusiastic sailors. They had a wonderful trip, and averaged 5.2 knots for the whole trip. And, they had their share of challenging conditions. For a really good and informative read, I would strongly recommend their journal detailing several years of cruising from the Pacific Northwest to New Zealand, including the rigors of a blister job in Mexico. It is called the "Mandolin Mailing List",and it is on their website: http://www.aljian.com/mandolin read it and enjoy!As for my Hunter 33, Casual Water, and myself, we aim to be safely in New Zealand for the next A-Cup. I am sure we will have rattled our teeth a bit and pitched and rolled a bit more, but we have been doing that for years and we will be there!! End of rant!Phil, by the way, this has to be one of your most provocative threads!

jcherubini · Jun 8, 2001

Cherubini 44 speed.

An old friend of mine just bought a 1979 Cherubini 44 ketch and sailed from Key West to Pensacola, mostly upwind against a northeaster, in two days (+/- a few hours). He had planned for four.I have RARELY ever met anyone who did NOT average this kind of speed offshore in a C-44 ketch (boat's hull speed is over 8-1/2). The deck is always dry and the going is always comfortable. Trust me-- the stories are legion and none of them are poppycock. (My dad did not really like deep-water sailing except to turn good speed 'for free'. It was always home by dusk with him!)Sorry for turning this into a peeing contest!JC 2

A dissenting voice

Phil Herring

Alien

newly anonymous

.

Tim Schaaf

ted

jcherubini

.

Eric

Tom Hadoulias

Tom

newly anonymous

.

Jake

Justin

Phil Herring

Alien

Tom

dave abt

ted

Gorodn Myers

Justin

Don Carson

Tim Schaaf

jcherubini

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