Ok, I purchased a new design on its first year. That may have been a mistake but live and learn. My problem is that the head on occation will back up from the tank. Not much, but enough to stink. So the last time I pumped out I flushed the tank 3x, once via the vent. Went down to the boat last night (90+ deg temp) and it there was about 1/4 cup of brown water. When I backwashed the vent there was a fair amount of back pressure so I just sprayed the water there while pumping out. You could hear the air flowing in while the pump was working so I know I had the correct vent. 1. Peggy says to knock out the screens on the vent. How do you do that without scratching the daylights out of the clean new (Stainless/chrome). 2. The tank is mounted in a very confounded place that is nearly inaccessable so suggestions of what
*(){*()_ New boat head problem
- Thread starter Doghouse
- Start date
- Status
Does your head dishcharge hose run uphill?
If you can hear air coming into the tank vent when you pump out, the vent prob'ly isn't your culprit. And unless the tank is so full that it's overflowing out the vent and into the head discharge line, what you're seeing isn't coming from the tank--the inlet is at the top...tank contents can't jump into any line above the surface...although they can spill into the line when you're heeled...but the boat doesn't heel when it's sitting. If your head discharge hose runs uphill, what I suspect you're seeing is waste left in the line that's running back downhill into the bowl...and if it's waste, not just flush water, that means you aren't flushing long enough to move the bowl contents all the way to the tank--or at least over the top of any loop. Somebody is sure to jump in telling you to replace the joker valve. That's not the solution. A new joker valve will block backflow for a short time, but joker valves aren't supposed to block slow seepage, only major floods...and after enough flushes have gone through it to stretch the slit even the width of a human hair, you'll see slow seepage again. So I'm pretty sure your problem is due to "operator error." How to correct depends on whether your toilet is manual or electric. So what's the make/model? What's the routing of your head discharge hose?
If you can hear air coming into the tank vent when you pump out, the vent prob'ly isn't your culprit. And unless the tank is so full that it's overflowing out the vent and into the head discharge line, what you're seeing isn't coming from the tank--the inlet is at the top...tank contents can't jump into any line above the surface...although they can spill into the line when you're heeled...but the boat doesn't heel when it's sitting. If your head discharge hose runs uphill, what I suspect you're seeing is waste left in the line that's running back downhill into the bowl...and if it's waste, not just flush water, that means you aren't flushing long enough to move the bowl contents all the way to the tank--or at least over the top of any loop. Somebody is sure to jump in telling you to replace the joker valve. That's not the solution. A new joker valve will block backflow for a short time, but joker valves aren't supposed to block slow seepage, only major floods...and after enough flushes have gone through it to stretch the slit even the width of a human hair, you'll see slow seepage again. So I'm pretty sure your problem is due to "operator error." How to correct depends on whether your toilet is manual or electric. So what's the make/model? What's the routing of your head discharge hose?
That is a good bet. Thanks Peggy
Peggy, considering this is our first boat with a head I would bet you are correct in your assumption. We have been trying to be conservative considering that we only have 10 gal capacity. Thank you for the insite. BTW I hope Joker valves last more than 6 mths.
Peggy, considering this is our first boat with a head I would bet you are correct in your assumption. We have been trying to be conservative considering that we only have 10 gal capacity. Thank you for the insite. BTW I hope Joker valves last more than 6 mths.
You didn't answer my questions...
I can tell you how to conserve flush water if you'll give me the info I need to do it. Joker valves should be replaced at least every two years...annually if you live aboard. I knew at least one person would suspect a "bad" joker valves...and I was right. 'Cuz most boat owners (IF they have any clue at all about what it is, where it is, or what it does) mistakenly believe that a joker valve is a one-way that's supposed to completely block ALL backflow. That's not true. A joker valve IS a one-way valve, but it's not supposed to block seepage, only a catastrophic flood that could overflow the bowl. Expecting even a brand new joker valve not to leak at all for more than a few weekends is totally unrealistic. 'Cuz as each flush goes through it, it stretchs the slit. After a dozen or so flushes, the slit doesn't close tightly any more. It's only open about the width of a human hair, but that's enough to allow VERY slow seepage...gradually the slit gets wider....till eventually--after about 2 years--the slit isn't a slit any more, it's a hole. If the system isn't rinsed out well before the boat sits, salt and other sea water minerals can accumulate in the joker valve as well as in the head discharge hose, also preventing it from closing, even long before it wears out.
I can tell you how to conserve flush water if you'll give me the info I need to do it. Joker valves should be replaced at least every two years...annually if you live aboard. I knew at least one person would suspect a "bad" joker valves...and I was right. 'Cuz most boat owners (IF they have any clue at all about what it is, where it is, or what it does) mistakenly believe that a joker valve is a one-way that's supposed to completely block ALL backflow. That's not true. A joker valve IS a one-way valve, but it's not supposed to block seepage, only a catastrophic flood that could overflow the bowl. Expecting even a brand new joker valve not to leak at all for more than a few weekends is totally unrealistic. 'Cuz as each flush goes through it, it stretchs the slit. After a dozen or so flushes, the slit doesn't close tightly any more. It's only open about the width of a human hair, but that's enough to allow VERY slow seepage...gradually the slit gets wider....till eventually--after about 2 years--the slit isn't a slit any more, it's a hole. If the system isn't rinsed out well before the boat sits, salt and other sea water minerals can accumulate in the joker valve as well as in the head discharge hose, also preventing it from closing, even long before it wears out.
What's the routing of your head discharge hose?
It is the PHC rigged right handed. THe discharge hosed from the head runs straight back 18", wide 90 to left while turning 90 up behind the wall to the top of the tank. It is very hard to see as I have to crawl upside down after removing all the batteries to see the bottom of the tank. The top of the tank is nearly even with the vent hole. We daytrip out on the boat and try once a month to spend the weekend on it since March. The leakage has occured on 3 occations 2x when the tank was 3/4+ full at the end of a trip. Thanks for the help with this.
It is the PHC rigged right handed. THe discharge hosed from the head runs straight back 18", wide 90 to left while turning 90 up behind the wall to the top of the tank. It is very hard to see as I have to crawl upside down after removing all the batteries to see the bottom of the tank. The top of the tank is nearly even with the vent hole. We daytrip out on the boat and try once a month to spend the weekend on it since March. The leakage has occured on 3 occations 2x when the tank was 3/4+ full at the end of a trip. Thanks for the help with this.
Peggy, did I answer your question?
did my previous post answer your question or is there more info I need to provide?
did my previous post answer your question or is there more info I need to provide?
Oops, I forgot about you
Here's how to conserve flush water AND minimize backflow: Most people don't realize that a manual marine toilet can move waste about 6' in the dry mode, so they only use it to empty the last bit of water out the bowl...and then they compound their error by ceasing to pump as soon as the bowl is empty. That not only uses a LOT of extra flush water, but also leaves waste/flush water sitting in the discharge hose. You can reduce the amount of flush water needed by at at least 50%--almost doubling the number of flushes your tank can hold--if you use the wet mode only to wet the bowl--just a pump or two--ahead of use...switch to dry to empty the bowl, making sure to pump long enough to move the bowl contents all the way to the tank. Switch back to wet for only enough pumps to rinse the bowl and provide enough water to rinse the discharge hose...then back to dry for enough pumps to move the rinse water all the way to the tank. A little water will remain the line to run back downhill to the toilet, but it's typically only half a cup or less...and it's relatively clean water.
Here's how to conserve flush water AND minimize backflow: Most people don't realize that a manual marine toilet can move waste about 6' in the dry mode, so they only use it to empty the last bit of water out the bowl...and then they compound their error by ceasing to pump as soon as the bowl is empty. That not only uses a LOT of extra flush water, but also leaves waste/flush water sitting in the discharge hose. You can reduce the amount of flush water needed by at at least 50%--almost doubling the number of flushes your tank can hold--if you use the wet mode only to wet the bowl--just a pump or two--ahead of use...switch to dry to empty the bowl, making sure to pump long enough to move the bowl contents all the way to the tank. Switch back to wet for only enough pumps to rinse the bowl and provide enough water to rinse the discharge hose...then back to dry for enough pumps to move the rinse water all the way to the tank. A little water will remain the line to run back downhill to the toilet, but it's typically only half a cup or less...and it's relatively clean water.
Could you expain how the hose is emptied . .
in the Dry mode? Wouldn't subsequent pumps just push air into and through the hose and leave the waste in the nearest low point? BTW Peggy, got your book a couple of days ago and have learned a LOT from it. I'm not going to be able to do all that's recommended in my sanitation rebuild but will try to do as much as possible.
in the Dry mode? Wouldn't subsequent pumps just push air into and through the hose and leave the waste in the nearest low point? BTW Peggy, got your book a couple of days ago and have learned a LOT from it. I'm not going to be able to do all that's recommended in my sanitation rebuild but will try to do as much as possible.
Air does push the bowl contents...
As long as the discharge line remains full...which is up to 6' horizontally, 4' vertically. After that distance, the contents "flatten out" in the hose...the air pushed by the pump goes over it. But up to about 6', the dry mode WILL push the bowl contents through the hose. You don't have to take my word for it...I didn't believe it either till I saw it for myself. What part of my santqation sanitation rebuild recommendations do you think you'll have to omit? 'Cuz some things are critical...not doing 'em will cause problems. But there are workarounds for other things. Let's make sure you do whatever it takes to make sure to do what's essential.
As long as the discharge line remains full...which is up to 6' horizontally, 4' vertically. After that distance, the contents "flatten out" in the hose...the air pushed by the pump goes over it. But up to about 6', the dry mode WILL push the bowl contents through the hose. You don't have to take my word for it...I didn't believe it either till I saw it for myself. What part of my santqation sanitation rebuild recommendations do you think you'll have to omit? 'Cuz some things are critical...not doing 'em will cause problems. But there are workarounds for other things. Let's make sure you do whatever it takes to make sure to do what's essential.
Peggy, I don't doubt that it works that way, . .
just didn't understand how ;-) . One of your suggestions I'm not so sure about is putting a vented loop in the discharge line immediately after the toilet. My existing run is at the limit of your run + rise advice (7' run -slightly uphill- w/ about a 2.5' rise at the tank) and a loop would add >4 feet to that. Which is better, a shorter run or a vented loop in the discharge? I do NOT have an overboard discharge so there are no issues there. Tank vent size could be better but looks to be routing well. Will have to check again in the morning. I'm pretty sure the PHII will fit so I have a new one in the basement awaiting installation. Also, do you recommend the Trident hose over the Sealand? My water intake and loop hoses look good but the waste hose is suspect. It never smelled (I think the PO *never* used the head) but it is 10 years old and looks like nothing available today. Thanks for all your help; You're the BEST!
just didn't understand how ;-) . One of your suggestions I'm not so sure about is putting a vented loop in the discharge line immediately after the toilet. My existing run is at the limit of your run + rise advice (7' run -slightly uphill- w/ about a 2.5' rise at the tank) and a loop would add >4 feet to that. Which is better, a shorter run or a vented loop in the discharge? I do NOT have an overboard discharge so there are no issues there. Tank vent size could be better but looks to be routing well. Will have to check again in the morning. I'm pretty sure the PHII will fit so I have a new one in the basement awaiting installation. Also, do you recommend the Trident hose over the Sealand? My water intake and loop hoses look good but the waste hose is suspect. It never smelled (I think the PO *never* used the head) but it is 10 years old and looks like nothing available today. Thanks for all your help; You're the BEST!
The idea behind putting in a loop
Is to give you the shortest uphill run--only over the top of the loop...then it should be downhill to the tank. Yes, that does add to the length of the line, but it's all downhill except for the first 4'...and since liquids run downhill, gravity will compensate for the additional length. I do think Trident 101/102 is the best hose today...however it does have one issue: a chemical odor of its own from the rubber formulation. It's not strong enough to bother most people, but a few people have found it intolerable. So you might want to get just a couple of feet of it and put it in a closet for a while before you commit to it.
Is to give you the shortest uphill run--only over the top of the loop...then it should be downhill to the tank. Yes, that does add to the length of the line, but it's all downhill except for the first 4'...and since liquids run downhill, gravity will compensate for the additional length. I do think Trident 101/102 is the best hose today...however it does have one issue: a chemical odor of its own from the rubber formulation. It's not strong enough to bother most people, but a few people have found it intolerable. So you might want to get just a couple of feet of it and put it in a closet for a while before you commit to it.
Peggy
I have yet to get this down for my system and so I avoid using my head as much as possible. My boat has a 14' or 15' discharge hose. It start out at the head going up 6" and then down 6" then straight across for about 10' and then the last 3' of hose is a curve and up 2' before connecting to the tank. I don't know of anyway I could change this as it was designed that way by Hunter. My question is, what is the best way to clear the hose? After reading your post, it sounds like I have to pump in the wet mode a lot. What I used to try is clearing the bowl with a couple of wet pumps (sometimes a little more if it was a big one
) then a good 15-20 dry pumps (until I hear a hollow sound) and then a couple of wet pumps to put a little water in the bowl and close off the hose to the open air in the cabin. BUT...I can tell I'm not fully clearing the hose because a few days later I smell something until I get it cleared correctly. Note: I have a raw water/fresh water setup like you told me how to do last year and I normally do pump with freshwater.
I have yet to get this down for my system and so I avoid using my head as much as possible. My boat has a 14' or 15' discharge hose. It start out at the head going up 6" and then down 6" then straight across for about 10' and then the last 3' of hose is a curve and up 2' before connecting to the tank. I don't know of anyway I could change this as it was designed that way by Hunter. My question is, what is the best way to clear the hose? After reading your post, it sounds like I have to pump in the wet mode a lot. What I used to try is clearing the bowl with a couple of wet pumps (sometimes a little more if it was a big one
) then a good 15-20 dry pumps (until I hear a hollow sound) and then a couple of wet pumps to put a little water in the bowl and close off the hose to the open air in the cabin. BUT...I can tell I'm not fully clearing the hose because a few days later I smell something until I get it cleared correctly. Note: I have a raw water/fresh water setup like you told me how to do last year and I normally do pump with freshwater.Been There
Same problem - new boat, Jabasco Quiet Flush electric toilet. Bowl half fills with affluent after a day at rest. So, not wanting to wait for the remarkably slow warranty approach, I replaced my joker valve yesterday - what a messy job and the old valve looked good (only 4 months old). Anyhow, about a cup of yuk this morning. I wish I'd read your thread before the weekend. I guess I'll have to flush longer - I've always been a tank miser. Anyhow, how about a manual valve on the line above the joker valve to shut it completely???
Same problem - new boat, Jabasco Quiet Flush electric toilet. Bowl half fills with affluent after a day at rest. So, not wanting to wait for the remarkably slow warranty approach, I replaced my joker valve yesterday - what a messy job and the old valve looked good (only 4 months old). Anyhow, about a cup of yuk this morning. I wish I'd read your thread before the weekend. I guess I'll have to flush longer - I've always been a tank miser. Anyhow, how about a manual valve on the line above the joker valve to shut it completely???
- Status