'81H36 cabin top winch size question

[tmjb]

My 'new to me' H36 came with a Barient 10 mounted to the port side cabin top for the main sheet (& jib halyard) and an 18 on the stbd side for the main (& spare) halyards.

The port side 10 seems way too small to me for the main halyard.

Is this the way the boat was originally equipped, as mine appears to be? Does anyone else have the same setup/ feel the same? Has anyone made changes to this and, if so, what are they?

I'm concerned about just changing for a larger winch because it is bolted into what I understand is an aluminum ground in the cabin top with no inside access due to the liner.

Any thought, advice etc would be much appreciated.

 

[Joe23455]

my port and starboard cabin top winches are Barient 10's, rebuilt both with fresh springs and pawls, never had an issue with main or jib halyard, double wrap on the winch to crank in the main last foot or so and that's it. Yes they are threaded in with a 1/4 20 screw into a aluminum plate, solid connection, I have added clutch brakes for line handling. Garhaurer,great product. also added ridged boom vang and changed out the main traveler for a 6-1 ratio Garhauer traveler, world of difference. best of sailing

joe
s/v trinity

 

[tmjb]

my port and starboard cabin top winches are Barient 10's, rebuilt both with fresh springs and pawls, never had an issue with main or jib halyard, double wrap on the winch to crank in the main last foot or so and that's it. Yes they are threaded in with a 1/4 20 screw into a aluminum plate, solid connection, I have added clutch brakes for line handling. Garhaurer,great product. also added ridged boom vang and changed out the main traveler for a 6-1 ratio Garhauer traveler, world of difference. best of sailing

joe
s/v trinity

Many thanks for the input Joe. My issue relates to the main sheet. I have no problem with the halyards. I suspect that your 6-1 is what makes all the difference compared to mine (which I believe is the original) which is 3-1.

I would much appreciate a photo or two of your set up and/or specs. Doesn't the 6-1 mean you have alot more line to contend with when its sheeted in?

Did you have any problem getting the mounting screws undone?

 

[Joe23455]

tmjb
is your traveler sheet a bear to control as far as hauling in ?
It sounds like the original and I know where your concern is when trying to handle that main sheet. I found that not even the winch, maybe due to its position and that of traveler, made it very hard to draw in the boom.
When I first took ownership of Trinity in 2003, and learning how she sailed, I could not understand how the PO could even handle the main in heavy air, I fought it. So that was my first change out and made quit a difference. I will get you a picture in a day or two.
If I am thinking of this right,the amount of line on the traveler remains the same, the control portion of line that you deal with must be of length to allow the boom full swing,
so it doesn't fell like a lot, coil neat on cockpit seat that's bout it. hope this helps joe

 

[tmjb]

tmjb
is your traveler sheet a bear to control as far as hauling in ?
It sounds like the original and I know where your concern is when trying to handle that main sheet. I found that not even the winch, maybe due to its position and that of traveler, made it very hard to draw in the boom.
When I first took ownership of Trinity in 2003, and learning how she sailed, I could not understand how the PO could even handle the main in heavy air, I fought it. So that was my first change out and made quit a difference. I will get you a picture in a day or two.
If I am thinking of this right,the amount of line on the traveler remains the same, the control portion of line that you deal with must be of length to allow the boom full swing,
so it doesn't fell like a lot, coil neat on cockpit seat that's bout it. hope this helps joe

Thanks again Joe. This is my first season with her and I haven't sailed her alot thus far. To date I've left the traveler alone - partly because it has no minimal mechanical advantage so can only be adjusted with little or no load. I'm not sure that the traveler influences what I'm talking about. Traveller line length remains the same.

It is a bear to winch in the mainsheet under significant load but I can just about manage it in reasonably heavy wind - say 20 kts apparent when sailing close hauled - but its quite a workout. On the other hand I have the larger #18 - which is two speed on the starboard side that I only use to raise the mainsail - something I think I could many with the port side #10.

I'm assuming that the mounting bolt patterns are different - I haven't checked yet. If they're the same I think I'll try swapping them. Otherwise, maybe I just swap the main and jib halyards from starboard to port and vice versa.

It would be great to see pictures of your setup. I'll look forward. Many thanks.

By the way, if you're sailing alone, do you have a technique for handling the mainsheet easily from the helm - for example if you're sailing onto a mooring, beam reach, head up and want to let go? I've only sailed boats with the mainsheet at the helm before and having it forward of the wheel is not so easy unless I'm missing something.

 

[rardiH36]

By the way, if you're sailing alone, do you have a technique for handling the mainsheet easily from the helm - for example if you're sailing onto a mooring, beam reach, head up and want to let go? I've only sailed boats with the mainsheet at the helm before and having it forward of the wheel is not so easy unless I'm missing something.

tmjb:

Post #3 in the below thread describes/shows my solution for main sheet control from the helm. The pictures were taken back in about 2008-09. Since then I have changed out the single clutch pictured with a double for my added outhaul. Also of course I have made the mod a bit prettier with paint.

Regarding winch mounting, the raised areas next to the companionway on both port and starboard cabin to definitely have an aluminum sheet underneath. My guess is 1/4" thick. Really is an easy matter to drill and tap for mounting new equipment ... or to re-orient positions of existing stuff. When drilling, after it punches through the aluminum, the drill bit will continue through a void space of (say) 1/4", then hit the top of the interior liner. Of course don't drill through that!

My 1980 Cherubini Hunter 36 has the jib and main halyards led back to the cockpit on the starboard. Also that is the side I opted for the boom vang control as well.


http://forums.hunter.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?p=1024855&highlight=main sheet

 

[tmjb]

Many thanks as always Rardi. Great input. Looks like you replace the original cabin top winch with a much larger one which is what I'm considering doing. Mid boom sheeting needs a great deal more pull than end boom.

 

[rardiH36]

Many thanks as always Rardi. Great input. Looks like you replace the original cabin top winch with a much larger one which is what I'm considering doing. Mid boom sheeting needs a great deal more pull than end boom.

tmjg:

Actually, I did not replace the winch. Was a feature that came with the boat when I bought it in 2007. It's a Barient 19ST. Works fine, but all the chrome electroplated over the bronze casting now is considerably worn. The winch looks like or a even quite a bit worse. I think my winch was OEM because before I started mucking around, there was no evidence of any prior mounts. The gelcoat was still original.

Regarding the "great deal more pull" for mid boom sheeting compared to end boom -- yes undoubtedly. I have the mid boom sheeting as well. One item is the type of the blocks and configuration. If you look at the pictures that are in url to the old thread I referenced, you can see my setup. All the main sheet blocks, on the boom and at the traveler, are roller bearing type. So is the turning block at the base of the mast and also at the deck organizer. These blocks greatly reduce the friction compared to simple "axle" bearing blocks. I can usually sheet in by hand even when the wind is blowing. If I can't, then the wind has reached the "need to reef" velocity anyway. Nonetheless, if your Barient 10 is a 2-speed, it should do a lot better with a fraction of effort than my hand pull strength. If you can locate a self-tailing winch for a reasonable price, that would be my choice. As in my pictures, mount it with rope clutch and a cam cleat. In light/normal winds, unless you really want to impart a lot of tension, tending the sheet by hand is doable. In stronger winds, the self-tailing feature works very well.

 

[tmjb]

tmjg:

Actually, I did not replace the winch. Was a feature that came with the boat when I bought it in 2007. It's a Barient 19ST. Works fine, but all the chrome electroplated over the bronze casting now is considerably worn. The winch looks like or a even quite a bit worse. I think my winch was OEM because before I started mucking around, there was no evidence of any prior mounts. The gelcoat was still original.

Regarding the "great deal more pull" for mid boom sheeting compared to end boom -- yes undoubtedly. I have the mid boom sheeting as well. One item is the type of the blocks and configuration. If you look at the pictures that are in url to the old thread I referenced, you can see my setup. All the main sheet blocks, on the boom and at the traveler, are roller bearing type. So is the turning block at the base of the mast and also at the deck organizer. These blocks greatly reduce the friction compared to simple "axle" bearing blocks. I can usually sheet in by hand even when the wind is blowing. If I can't, then the wind has reached the "need to reef" velocity anyway. Nonetheless, if your Barient 10 is a 2-speed, it should do a lot better with a fraction of effort than my hand pull strength. If you can locate a self-tailing winch for a reasonable price, that would be my choice. As in my pictures, mount it with rope clutch and a cam cleat. In light/normal winds, unless you really want to impart a lot of tension, tending the sheet by hand is doable. In stronger winds, the self-tailing feature works very well.

Thanks again Rardi. Interesting the differences between what appear to be original setups on your '80 and my '81 boats. Unfortunately my Barient #10 is a single speed. It becomes challenging when heading very close to the wind and the wind is fairly strong. I think your advice re trying roller-bearing type sheeves is probably a good first step for me, possibly followed by a change in winch. My only reticence re the winch change is making more holes in my boat which I hate to do.

By the way, my boat also has two pairs of Lewmar D2 rope clutches, one port one starboard, that also look original. Did yours have these too?

 

[rardiH36]

My only reticence re the winch change is making more holes in my boat which I hate to do.

tmjb:

Single speed. Only size 10 (small). No wonder the set-up is less than ideal for you.

Used non self-tailing winches are a hard sell from my observation. Everyone now wants self-tail. If you have local marine consignment stores check with them for what's on offer. Or Craig's list. Bargain. On my starboard side cabin top, I have a Barient 18 2-speed, non ST. With it I can get tremendous tension on the halyards. A 2-speed 18 (or larger of course) would work fine for the mainsheet, in combination with a clutch "up-line" from the winch, and a cam cleat at the edge of the cabin top as I have mounted.

I don't know your experience with tap/die sets, but really it isn't much of an issue drilling/tapping new equipment fastener holes into the aluminum under the raised pads on the cabin top next to the companion way. The main risk is torque the tap wrong and having it snap off in the hole. But this would be hard to do with the 1/4" or probably "5/16" tap you would be needing. I've probably drilled ~12-16 holes in the pads as I moved around existing equipment or added additional clutches and cam cleats. Old holes just need to be acetone cleaned well to remove old caulking residue. Then say a 5/16 inch drill bit in reverse will bevel and rough up. I then tape around each hole. I fill the holes with a white Bondo product. When it has set, but before it gets hard (takes only a few minutes), it's easy to shave flat with the gelcoat surface using a thin blade box cutter knife. A light sanding finishes the fairing. Finally I spray some appliance epoxy white spray can paint into a small container and with an artist's brush dab over the Bondo. It's not perfect, but considering it's only a small round hole being covered, one needs to look hard to see the repair.

rardi

 

[Joe23455]

tmjb;
attached photos for your info.

joe

 

[Alctel]

Great topic, will post what I have later today when at boat, winch wise (1980 model)

I have a 3:1 on main sheet, would maybe like to upgrade that at some point. My main issue is that my traveller is only 2:1 and the 'fixed' blocks at each end are jammed! I need to change the thing at some point to make it easier to adjust - would be interested in pics of other peoples traveller setup.

 

[tmjb]

Today I experimented with the Barient 18. I rigged the mainsheet to the starboard side and went sailing in 20 kt sustained winds - admittedly with one reef in the main. The 18 made all the difference as you suggest.

I have a reasonable amount of experience with using a tap so that would not deter me. However I'm wondering if there's a reason not to keep the mainsheet on the starboard side(?).

 

[tmjb]

tmjb; attached photos for your info. joe

Many thanks for the photos. Looks like a great setup on both the main and traveller. The boat looks to be in great shape too!

 

[tmjb]

Great topic, will post what I have later today when at boat, winch wise (1980 model) I have a 3:1 on main sheet, would maybe like to upgrade that at some point. My main issue is that my traveller is only 2:1 and the 'fixed' blocks at each end are jammed! I need to change the thing at some point to make it easier to adjust - would be interested in pics of other peoples traveller setup.

That would be good to see/know.

My mainsheet is 5:1 but it sounds like we have the same traveller - definitely not the best although I think my sheeves still work for what they'r worth.

 

[Joe23455]

do not see any reason why you could not work your sheet from starboard.
a multi sheave fairlead on the cabin top could handle the additional lines aft if that is necessary. Since you are positioned at the base of the mast either side works.
Nice that you have the larger winch on top to utilize. Each boat takes some creativity in finding our own way of sailing efficiently.

regards

joe s/v
trinity

 

[rardiH36]

Wildaire Cabin Top Rigging Setup

Yes, good to see and discuss the various stock setups and the modifications/upgrades that have been made.

In case it generates any ideas, I took pictures yesterday of my current mainsheet set up and the other "led back to cockpit" lines. Also the block mainsheet block arrangement between the traveler and the boom.

On the port side, from left to right:

- Traveler line
- Cunningham
- Outhaul
- Mainshhet

On the starboard side, from left to right:

- Main halyard
- Jib Halyard
- Boom Vang
- Traveler line

 

[tmjb]

Yes, good to see and discuss the various stock setups and the modifications/upgrades that have been made. In case it generates any ideas, I took pictures yesterday of my current mainsheet set up and the other "led back to cockpit" lines. Also the block mainsheet block arrangement between the traveler and the boom. On the port side, from left to right: - Traveler line - Cunningham - Outhaul - Mainshhet On the starboard side, from left to right: - Main halyard - Jib Halyard - Boom Vang - Traveler line

Many thanks for taking the time to do this Rardi, Great to see your setup and understand what is what. Interesting that you have your main sheet stbd side - same as I've just experimented with.

Your traveller looks like you added double blocks to the original - or at least what came to me with my H36. What did you use/how did you go about that? Modifying the original seems like a great route to go rather than buying and installing all new.

 

[rardiH36]

Many thanks for taking the time to do this Rardi, Great to see your setup and understand what is what. Interesting that you have your main sheet stbd side - same as I've just experimented with.

Actually, as in my previous post, my main is routed on the port side. It is the bright/solid green line. Port works for me but whatever side is prefered by the boat owner ...

Your traveller looks like you added double blocks to the original - or at least what came to me with my H36. What did you use/how did you go about that? Modifying the original seems like a great route to go rather than buying and installing all new.

Yes, I've still got the OEM traveler installed. My PO upgraded to double Harken micro blocks. I found that although the control lines did thread through them, just barely = really tight = friction. I subsequently installed the next larger size Harken bullet blocks. Found them them at a local nautical swap meet.

 

[Alctel]

Would you be able to link the blocks you used?