80 37C Cherubini grounding/bonding

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Jun 1, 2009
1,839
Hunter 49 toronto
Trying to think if this is being caused by a neighbour's stray voltage.
Any chance of moving the boat to a different slip?
 
Apr 2, 2011
185
Catalina 27 Niceville, FL
I'm no expert, but I am pretty sure you should not have the neutral and ground connected together in the ac panel. If that doesn't help, then the galvanic isolator could be bad.
 
Sep 21, 2009
385
Hunter 34 Comox
2 things just jump out at me. get rid of the jumper between the keel and engine. Also install a galvanic isolator in your shore power ground as close as you can to the power inlet. The best article on this stuff is on the West Marine site. When ever you have 2 bits of metal emersed in a salt solution and tied together with a piece of wire you are creating a battery and current is going to flow. This will happen between the keel and your engine/prop and propshaft. If you have metal through hulls isolate them, no circuit, no problem. The galvanic isolator will block any shore power ground connection unless the voltage in the wire rises above 1.4 volts then it will conduct and a breaker will trip if wired correctly. If you are in a marina where a lot of issues are present an isolator or an isolation transormer is essential. Your mast and keel should be tied together and even the lifelines. In a lightening strike it will tend to send the strike to the water and not to your DC system. Of course, lightening will do pretty much what it wants but this would minimize the damage....hopefully.
 
Jan 30, 2012
1,142
Nor'Sea 27 "Kiwanda" Portland/ Anacortes
Your diagram and explanation do not say where the the zinc(s) are located nor how many. So we assume that you have a single zinc on the propeller shaft and that you do not have a zinc on the strut.

First - your AC panel diagram shows white (AC neutral) is jumpered to safety green (AC ground). If they are connected on the boat then AC is returning to the shore power (source) via the white, the safety green, and also through the shaft brushes and the strut, then through the water back to the source. This is a threat to you, your crew, and swimmers. You must disconnect safety green from white.

Since AC is passing through the shaft/ propeller/and your shaft zincs, thence through the water, thence to the shore power source, AC passing through your propeller shaft assembly is contributing to your zinc loss rate.

Apart from the AC safety threat - (safety green is jumpered to white on the boat) safety green is also connected to DC negative at "A". So you are actually using safety green as a conductor on the boat and should not. Instead run safety green to the AC panel and the outlets. Then from the panel direct to the ground block - that is don't run safety green to "A" . That way you separate DC negative leads from the AC safety green system. In general - you need to make it impossible for AC safety green to act as a path in the DC negative system.

Your diagram does not show any DC positive runs - so you need to be quite certain that it is impossible for DC positive to enter/exit the boat. Typical examples are DC wires in contact with bilge water, via the starter or alternator connections to the motor block, bilge pump wiring in contact with bilge water.

Measure your hull potential. You will immediately know what is happening. If the values are abnormal - it won't take much more effort to figure out why. Incidentally I would jumper over the shaft saver instead of relying on the shaft brush - no reason you can't have both - brushes are not so very reliable.

Please disconnect the AC white to safety green jumper - pronto.

Charles
 
Last edited:
Sep 21, 2009
385
Hunter 34 Comox
Charles is right about the ground and neutral being tied together, should not be and sorry I didn't see the isolator at first look. Make sure it is working. I would still remove the jumper to the mast/ keel.
 
Jun 1, 2009
1,839
Hunter 49 toronto
Respectfully,,,,

Charles is right about the ground and neutral being tied together, should not be and sorry I didn't see the isolator at first look. Make sure it is working. I would still remove the jumper to the mast/ keel.
I totally disagree with the comments that tying AC neutral & AC ground together is incorrect. In fact, it is stipulated by ABYC and electrical code, that at the point of new voltage generation, the neutral shall be ground bonded.
You are welcome to verify this with a simple "neutral ground bonding" search on google.
Where I do have issue is that point "A" is redundantly connected to ship ground. This is wrong in my opinion. The AC ground goes into the panel, bonds to neutral, and DC ground as well. The path from the isolator output to ship's ground is redundant.
I do suspect there is a problem with your isolator.
You can verify isolators, as they should have an approximate 1.2 volt drop across them. They are essentially diodes connected back to back.

You can disconnect it from the AC ground, and run a simple 12 volt test circuit through it, such as a light bulb. Check the voltage going in and out of the isolator. If threre is less than 1.2v drop, it is likely defective.

You could look at investing in an isolation transformer. These come up used on ebay, and provide 100% isolation
 
Jul 29, 2012
80
hunter 37 cherubini Apollo Beach
Thanks all, a couple of points
1. I have/had a single zinc on the shaft.
2. I will remove the Neutral/ground jumper at the AC panel. I will isolate and tie all outlet grounds together and tie back to the Isolator stud (ship side)
3. The Isolator specifically states tieing the shipside ground to the DC ground.
4. The Mast/Keel/Strut/shaft/engine grounding (and back to DC ground) was (I believe) a factory installation. I will add the safety rails

Comments?
 
Sep 21, 2009
385
Hunter 34 Comox
My 34 also had the mast-keel grounded to the engine block. I was having problems with stray currents in our marina and being a long time electrician was fascinated with this whole new problem that I had not dealt with in the water. I had some experience in galvanic protection of pipeline systems and the like so I wasn't totally foreign to it. My a ha moment was when I realized that salt water is an electolyte and once I clued into that I was able to see what was going on in simple terms. I haven't got a copy of the ABYC code and would like to see the rule pertaining to bonding the ground and neutral wires together but to me that is just adding current to the ground which is not good and also creates the very circuit you are trying to eliminate on the shore power. So it seems there are 3 ways of creating the unwanted current. 1 creating a circuit with shore power and other boats, 2 creating a circuit within your own boat ie. propshaft to any other bonded metal bits sticking through the boat like the keel, and 3 poor connections in the bilge where they are subjected to being in water like the bilge pump(s). The galvanic isolator fixes the shore power issue. Making sure that the non electrical emmersed metal bits are not bonded together and make sure there are no splices or connections emersed in the bilge and that your pump seals have not broken down. by the way, I use 2 zincs on the shaft. Cheers, Ian
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,709
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
AC Neutral/White and Green/Earth are NEVER connected together on-board unless at a new "source" of power such as an inverter or genset. Proper marine gensets and inverters and properly wired inverters & gensets only make this connection when away from shore power and they are acting as the AC providing source.

That said I suspect you may have a DC leak which will need to be traced down. AC can cause accelerated zinc erosion but I've not seen it happen that fast. Losing the the AC neutral/earth bond may help some but I suspect you'll still be seeing short zinc life.

On-board DC leaks are far more common, the most common ailment for short zinc life I see and fix.. You can also unplug your boat for a month or so and see what happens but this is far slower than proper trouble shooting of the system. Improper DC neg/ground returns to the battery, cracked cable jacketing, improper crimps in the bilge, bilge pumps & float switches and non-marine battery chargers are but some of the biggest culprits.

Galvanic isolators can and do fail. Older models often failed open, thus no path to Earth or other boats. Newer models fail closed, keeps the ground, and fail in a way that would allow galvanic issues to flow while not losing the safety ground. Failures of the newer "fail safe" isolators are very, very, very rare. Failures of the older style are not as rare but when they fail you are no longer connected to other boats anyway so a failure actually isolates you, but becomes a huge safety issue..

This all leads back to what I normally find, and that is very often an on-board DC issue.
 
Jan 30, 2012
1,142
Nor'Sea 27 "Kiwanda" Portland/ Anacortes
Connecting AC ground to AC neutral on the boat violates the "source of new power rule" because the source of shore power is up on the land at the shore power equipment. If you connect the two on the boat you violate the rule because there is no source of shore power on the boat. So far I can't find any code to the contrary - ABYC or otherwise.

The zinc wasting complaint suggests DC stray current is at work. If the source is a neighbor boat and the potential is over 1.2 volts, a galvanic isolator does not protect your boat. If the source is your boat then neither a galvanic isolator nor and isolation transformer will provide protection.

It is very easy to find out the source by measuring your hull potential.

Charles
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,709
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Connecting AC ground to AC neutral on the boat violates the "source of new power rule" because the source of shore power is up on the land at the shore power equipment. If you connect the two on the boat you violate the rule because there is no source of shore power on the boat. So far I can't find any code to the contrary - ABYC or otherwise.
Here is the actual standard where it is laid out:

ABYC E-11
1.5.5.2 Grounded Neutral

A grounded neutral system is required. The neutral for AC power sources shall be grounded only at the following points:

11.5.5.2.1 The shore power neutral is grounded through the shore power cable and shall not be grounded on board the boat.

11.5.5.2.2 The secondary neutral of an isolation transformer or polarization transformer shall be grounded at the secondary of an isolation or polarization transformer. (See DIAGRAM 5, DIAGRAM 6, DIAGRAM 7, DIAGRAM 8 and DIAGRAM 9, DIAGRAM 10 and DIAGRAM 11 See EXCEPTION.)

11.5.5.2.3 The generator neutral shall be grounded at the generator. (See DIAGRAM 2 or DIAGRAM 4.)

11.5.5.2.4 The inverter output neutral shall be grounded at the inverter. The inverter output neutral shall be disconnected from ground when the inverter is operating in the charger or the feed-through mode(s). (See ABYC A-31, Battery Chargers and Inverters.)

EXCEPTION: Exception to E-11.5.5.2.2., E-11.5.5.2.3 and E-11.5.5.2.4: For systems using an isolation transformer or polarization transformer, both the generator or inverter neutral and the transformer secondary neutrals may be grounded at the AC main grounding bus instead of at the generator, inverter, or transformer secondaries. (See DIAGRAM 5.)
11.5.5.3

The main AC system grounding bus shall be connected to
11.5.5.3.1 the engine negative terminal or the DC main negative bus on grounded DC systems, or

11.5.5.3.2 the boat’s DC grounding bus in installations using ungrounded DC electrical systems.





The part in red that I highlighted about inverters is VERY important. Many folks try to save a buck and use the less expensive RV inverter / chargers. These may not always isolate neutral/ground when in charge mode and connected to shore power.

ALWAYS INSTALL MARINE UL CHARGERS, INVERTERS and INVERTER CHARGERS!!!!
 
Sep 21, 2009
385
Hunter 34 Comox
The zinc wasting complaint suggests DC stray current is at work. If the source is a neighbor boat and the potential is over 1.2 volts, a galvanic isolator does not protect your boat. If the source is your boat then neither a galvanic isolator nor and isolation transformer will provide protection.

It is very easy to find out the source by measuring your hull potential.

Charles

I certainly hope you never have over 1.2 volts running over your ground wire. Now you have a real problem. Normally you have at most milivolts. If the voltage rises it should rise to line volts and trip the shore power breaker.
 
Jan 30, 2012
1,142
Nor'Sea 27 "Kiwanda" Portland/ Anacortes
I am to referring to those cases where 1.2 DC volts potential originates on a neighbor boat, thence passes via safety green to your boat, thence to your shaft/propeller, thence through the water back to the offending neighbor. This situation can waste your zincs quick.

A galvanic isolator is meant to block galvanic processes which potential is never more than 1.2 DC volts. The problem is that a boat can put out more than 1.2 DC volts if there is a DC fault.

My point is that a galvanic isolator is effective at preventing galvanic exchanges between boats, but it will not work to prevent stray current exchanges (and the rapid wasting stray current can cause) if the stray current potential is over 1.2 DC volts.

And if the fault is on your boat these devices do nothing whatsoever to protect your underwater metals.

Charles
 
Sep 21, 2009
385
Hunter 34 Comox
Yes, I suppose this could happen. The grounding connections and 12v connections would have to be in very poor shape for sure. on the other boat. As the 2 grounds should meet at the engine block, the likelyhood of the potential rising above 1.2v dc would be rare I think. A 12 volt fuse would blow or heating to the point of fire worst case would happen first. I guess there could be other extraneous voltages running around. Have you had an experience or know of this situation?
 
Apr 2, 2011
185
Catalina 27 Niceville, FL
Keep in mind that the ABYC in interested in safety only. They do not care how many zincs you go thru or if your prop turns into swiss cheese or your rudder shaft falls off. Not their problem.
 
Jan 30, 2012
1,142
Nor'Sea 27 "Kiwanda" Portland/ Anacortes
I imagine there is some reason why you say ABYC standards can promote other problems.

Please explain.

If one follows ABYC (safety) standards - then how can following those standards result in zinc wasting, or propeller degradtion, or rudder shaft failure?

Charles
 
Apr 2, 2011
185
Catalina 27 Niceville, FL
ABYC

"If one follows ABYC (safety) standards - then how can following those standards result in zinc wasting, or propeller degradtion, or rudder shaft failure?"
In 1999, the 8 year old son of an ABYC certification instructor was killed by electric shock drowning. Since then, the ABYC has gone to great lengths to prevent electrical shock. Double main ac breakers, green wire to dc ground, galvanic isolators, isolation transformers, and ELCIs are examples of steps to prevent electrical shock. The green wire to dc ground did cause underwater degradation of metal, but kept swimmers safe. Then came the galvanic isolator and the isolation transformer to stop degradation of metal and protect swimmers. IMHO, the isolation transformer is the only sure fire way to cover all bases. I think the ABYC does good work, but I don't jump thru hoops each time they come up with a new standard.
 
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