79 Cutter instrument panel

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Jul 7, 2009
252
Beneteau First 405 Myrtle Beach, S.C.
I am tackling the engine wiring this week and have a question regarding the instrument panel. My panel is the simpler one using a tach, oil,water and charge lights along with a buzzer and on off switch with push button starter. I never had the engine running but I need to know if the idiot lights come on when switch is on along with the low oil alarm buzzer. Then upon starting up, lights go out and buzzer stops. Is this correct?? If so my buzzer is DOA.
The plug on the buzzer has the oil, water and charge wires go into it along with power and ground. I show part # 104271-91350 on my parts catalog but Torrensen Marine shows it as discontinued.
Do I need this buzzer if I am installing water, oil and charge gauges??
Thanks for your input
Jose
 
Jun 21, 2007
2,117
Hunter Cherubini 36_80-82 Sausalito / San Francisco Bay
By your description, the panel is the same one that I have. I've attached some photos taken from my Yanmar 2QM20/3QM30 manual of instrument panel wiring diagrams and the like. Maybe that will help diagnosing -- or at least will be good to have for your engine wiring project. Ignore the hand-added blue circuit, which just documents a one-of-a-kind modification that I made to my alarm system.

Yes, if the engine is not yet running (or has been stopped) but the 12v power to the engine has been turned on by the key switch, the idiot lights are on (I've never paid great attention, but the manual shows normal operation is that the oil pressure and the charge lights are on at this juncture) and the alarm buzzer is sounding. After the engine starts, when the alternator makes juice and the oil pressure builds, the alarm stops yelling at you.

I think that the alarm sound is crucial to have. Its just not possible to always keep an eye on the gauges and you might miss observing when the oil or temp or alternator readings have the moved into the "you better do something about this" range.

The alarm buzzer just needs 12V to sound off. Have you yet jury-rigged something up directly to the alarm's +/- terminals to verify that the alarm is in fact on the fritz? On the attached diagram of the buzzer's multi-pin plug, the three sensor pins are all -12V (ground). The +12V is always "on" to the buzzer and the lamps. When the temp and oil pressure switches activate, they switch on the ground connection to the lamps and the alarm buzzer. Even if this test doesn't sound the buzzer ... one last try. Possible that the buzzer is OK, but plug fitting or one of wires that attach between it and the buzzer housing are bad.

Good luck trouble-shooting.
 

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Jul 7, 2009
252
Beneteau First 405 Myrtle Beach, S.C.
Thanks a million for your reply. I understand now how the system works.
I only have the parts manual and although it has 2 schematics and all the part numbers, it has no directions for testing. It helps somewhat.
I also had a question regarding the compression release lever on top of the engine. It has an empty bracket for a cable but cannot find any cabling going to it. I guess it is set manually for hand starting the engine. Is that correct??
Thanks for your reply
Jose
 
Jun 21, 2007
2,117
Hunter Cherubini 36_80-82 Sausalito / San Francisco Bay
Glad the post has helped:

A further thought about your buzzer. If you can't get it working again, and since the Yanmar part isn't available anymore, then check out Radioshack. They have several buzzer alarms that are activated with 12V. Here is one link:

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062405&filterName=Type&filterValue=Buzzer

I don't really know, but the Yanmar buzzer might have separate drivers for each of the alarm circuits (temp/oil/alternator). If this is the case, and if you decide to go the Radioshack alternative, than it would be best if you wired up a separate buzzer for each circuit. The prices are low enough it would still be economic. The buzzers in the URL are real loud. Probably they can be located behind the panel out of the weather and still be heard.

Regarding the decompression lever. According to my manual, the remote control cable for it was an option for the 2QM/3QM models. Do a search on the forums for manual starting. I queried about this several years ago. It seems that starting an engine by hand cranking, with or without using decompression, is virtually impossible for most engines. Where the lever might help is when the battery is dead enough that it won't crank over the engine, but the battery still has some juice left. Then opening the decompression lever, engaging the starter motor until the engine rev's have picked up, and then closing the lever with the starter still engaged, just might get things going if you're lucky. The other use for the decompression lever is emergency shut-down if the normal fuel shut-off doesn't work, or the engine goes into runaway mode. Using the decompression lever for normal shutdown isn't recommended. The cooling water that is injected into the exhaust elbow needs the exhaust pressure to force it out of the boat. If the decompression lever is suddenly engaged with the engine running, the engine will continue to spin for a while so the exhaust water is still being pumped through the elbow. But without the exhaust pressure, its possible that the water instead could make its way into the cylinders. Usually fatal for the engine.

After I got my boat, I also noticed the bracket for the remote cable. I bought a cable from the Yanmar dealer. But no way could I get it to work properly. The location of the bracket didn't allow a straight pull/push along the lever's orientation. I wonder if any 2qm/3qm owners ever did install the decompression remote cable?
 
Jul 7, 2009
252
Beneteau First 405 Myrtle Beach, S.C.
Thanks to your guidance I was able to quickly put back together the harness and the panel. I have the panel on the galley counter since it is much easier to work with. Turning the key gave me a faint buzz. I guess the membrane on the alarm is old and damaged. Found an ademco 12v piezzo buzzer used as a warning alarm in one of my junk boxes. Works as a charm and is loud enough. Would it harm it if I connected all 3 grounds to it??(alt, water and oil neg sender). Since it is hot all the time we are working with grounds. Any harm in joining them together?? The ground goes first to the witness light then to the buzzer so light should still work??
Also, only my charge light came on. I tested the other two by connecting and external ground and they worked. I traced the oil sender blue wire and found it under the generator unplug. Fixed that and the light came on. The water light still does not work. Grounded the brown wire to the block and the light work so wire is O.K. How to test the sender?? Do you know if it is heat or pressure that makes it work. I guess pressure since it goes off after the engine starts. It takes a while to heat the water. A bad storm came through and had to close up early. I will pull it out tomorrow and see how it works. They cant be that expensive. But then, it is a sailboat engine, so it really could be expensive.
Thanks for your help.
 
Jun 21, 2007
2,117
Hunter Cherubini 36_80-82 Sausalito / San Francisco Bay
Jose:

I really don't know about joining all three sender leads to the same negative input into your replacement buzzer. Since your Yamar buzzer is destined for the trash bin, perhaps an idea is to dissect it and see how the three independent inputs actually are joined together or not?

As to the temperature light/gauge, according to the chart on the second picture that I sent a couple of days ago, the temp light doesn't go on when the key is on, but the engine is not running. The temp sender/switch is definitely temperature activated, not pressure. I think the only way to test is to heat it up in a pot of water, or maybe with a heat gun. Touching a continuity tester between the sender's body and the terminal should reveal it goes from open to closed at some point as the temperature increases.

I bought a new Yanmar temperature sender last. Cost was about $30. I needed to replace because a PO had installed a 170F sender/switch. But the engine, although now converted from sea water to self-contained anti-freeze cooling has a 140F thermostat. I put in the correct sender/switch to match
 
Jul 7, 2009
252
Beneteau First 405 Myrtle Beach, S.C.
I enlarged the wiring schematic to 12x17 so I could read it better and realy skipped over the the other page with the explanation of the lights. You are right, Sir. It plainly says that the water light is "extinguished". So that makes it a temperature activated sender. I know how to check it now. My Bad. Just need to make sure the admiral does not catch me in the kitchen using her pots and candy thermometer on the stove. :).
Thanks again for your imput.
Now, I need to start looking for places to add my new senders for water temp and oil press. Never a dull moment.
 
Jun 21, 2007
2,117
Hunter Cherubini 36_80-82 Sausalito / San Francisco Bay
Jose:

Yes, I also have to be stealthy when I need to borrow the head chef's kitchen items for alternative projects!

The PO of my boat had installed a beautiful set of engine gauges above the navigation station. (A pic of part of the set is below.) But the PO never hooked the gauges up to the engine. I initially connected the voltage gauge which of course was pretty easy. Only recently did I add a temp sender for the temp gauge. The temp switch for the instrument panel warning lights and buzzer is still the original location. The oil sender, I decided to not to do for now. I will be interested to hear how you actually install the senders on/in the engine.

You never stated -- what engine model to you have?

 
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Jul 7, 2009
252
Beneteau First 405 Myrtle Beach, S.C.
Sorry about that. I have a 3qm30 engine. A while back I asked for help installing the gauges and someone was kind enough to steer me in the right direction. (electric senders VS mechanical). He included 2 pictures but I realized that it must be a different engine since I dont have the same thermostat housing with extra threaded bosses. I will have to wait till 5 before I can sneak out and check my engine tonight. I may end up having to T off the existing locations in order to install the new senders. Field trip to Advance and Auto Zone.:)


http://forums.hunter.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=123078
 

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Jul 7, 2009
252
Beneteau First 405 Myrtle Beach, S.C.
Well here are the results of my field trip to NAPA. The oil sender was not a problem. One nipple, a T, a couple of 90's and we are in business. The water sender is also set up in a T and I dont like it. The original probe was long enough to be in the water flow steam. Now the new temp sender is at the end of the T. It will get water but how much flow?? I am considering cutting into the top water hose and inserting a T with the water temp probe in the water flow. I feel it may work better. Hate to add clamps and fittings to the water hose but it may read better. Any thoughts??
Thanks
 

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Jun 2, 2004
5,802
Hunter 37-cutter, '79 41 23' 30"N 82 33' 20"W--------Huron, OH
Do not understand your concern about "being in the flow". The water will all be the same temperature. True, it may take a few seconds longer for the heat to reach the sender. But seconds, not minutes.
 
Jul 7, 2009
252
Beneteau First 405 Myrtle Beach, S.C.
I guess you are right. Hot water is hot water. I have run into a problem with the oil sender thou. Both of the senders screw into the block or the T without any problem but the nipple will not go on the block but 1/2 a turn and stop. I don't want to force it. The nipple is 1/8 MPT and I guess the block is metric. I'll have to set it aside while I do more research. I am moving on to hoses and final wiring before engine fire up.
 
Jun 2, 2004
5,802
Hunter 37-cutter, '79 41 23' 30"N 82 33' 20"W--------Huron, OH
Jose, looks like your access to the port side of the engine is through a small hatch. Maybe you know that on later models of the H37C the q-berth panel comes out. A lot of guys, myself included, have opened up that side for easy access. Makes it much easier to work on water heater, stuffing box, strut bolts, muffler, etc.
 

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Nov 6, 2006
10,104
Hunter 34 Mandeville Louisiana
Guidera.. That tee arrangement will have to be braced to the engine somehow because the engine vibes and the weight of the tee and senders will crack the nipple off at threads where it exits the engine block. This will happen while the engine is running and very quickly, all the engine oil will get pumped into the bilge.. You will get an alarm when it happens.. Best to put a flex hose pigtail from the block to the tee which you could mount on the side of the engine box, or to the engine itself. Best to buy the pigtail made of the stainless mesh guarded hose..
 
Jun 21, 2007
2,117
Hunter Cherubini 36_80-82 Sausalito / San Francisco Bay
Jose:

As I posted before, I decided not to do anything about installing a sender for my oil gauge. But as you did, I struggled with the solution of installing a short pipe and then a a T-fitting to accommodate both a new temp sender for the gauge and also the original Yanmar temp switch for the idiot light and the alarm on the Yanmar panel. I decided on the option that you are now contemplating to tap into the hose you are showing in the picture. I have the 2QM model, but the configuration is similar.

The reason I went with the hose option is that for the engine T-option, with the sender and switch now way out from the engine, I thought that the temp readings could be very much on the low side. Instead of real time water temp passing over the sensors, the switch and sender would be reading water temperature that also would be affected by the the ambient air temperature of the engine room. Also, the senders/switches are affected by the temp of the engine block which they are normally threaded into. At the end of the T, the metal temperature could be less, particularly since the water is dead-end out there and not flowing normally over the sensors. Sort of analogous (sp?) to taking your body temp by squeezing the bulb or the thermometer between your thumb and forefinger. Could be quite different from the body's core temperature.

With the hose tap alternative, I guess there is also the issue of the ambient air temp affecting the sensor. So is where I mounted the gauge sensor. All I want to see from the gauge is that the water temp is more-or-less normal. Exact measurement is not critical. The hose mounted sensor T-fitting could be wrapped with insulation fabric of some sort to minimize the air temp interference. The original alarm sensor remains in its original spot. This is the thing that will first alert me to a problem.

As kloudie1 cautioned, engine vibration/movement needs to be a concern with the modifications. With a hose mounted arrangement, I observed that the extra weight of the t-fitting and sensor and clamps in the middle of the hose run would cause more flexing and risk of hose failure. In your pic, there are two hoses running parallel... same as mine. I "bonded" the two hoses together at the location of the new mid run fitting using electrical tape then further secured then together with nylon electrical ties. That seems to have done the trick .... the hoses have mutual support. But this location is now on my visual engine inspection list.

Also if you do the hose location, a ground wire to it is needed.
 
Jul 7, 2009
252
Beneteau First 405 Myrtle Beach, S.C.
kloudie1:
I totally agree with you on the nipple situation.I think a remote secured location with a flex hose to the block is the way to go. I forgot it,s a 3 banger. I remember my old BSA use to loose nuts all the time from vibration. Could not keep the fenders on. Those were the days.

By the way, I found out why my 1/8 nipple would not go on the block. It takes a male adapter to screw the 1/8 MPT nipple to the block. It is 1/8 BMPT (british Thread) on the block side and FPT on the female side. Most specialty automotive stores have it. From 2,99 to 9,99 depending on where you buy. Part # Autometer 2269.

rardiH36: I am also partial to the T inserted on the water hose in order to get a more accurate water temp reading. I am in the process of finding the fittings.

Ed: I remembered and old post of yours where you mentioned removing the rear panel. I removed the Teak trim that joined the two panels and also found 3 screws holding the bottom of the last panel. Since the heads were in the engine bay burried under the wall foam, I decided to drill a series of small holes around each screw shaft from the cabin side and presto, panel out. Wow. what a view. I found tools from the PO at the bottom of the well. I found the transmission dip stick had vibrated out and has eaten some of the threads of the block from sitting unscrewed on top of the transmission. For how long?? who knows. I guess a transmission oil change is now called for.
I also found that the water heater is leaking and has protusions of foam ouzing out of the plastic casing! Really ugly stuff. Looks like an accident waiting to hapen.
Oh welll, just add it to the to do list.:)
 

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Jul 7, 2009
252
Beneteau First 405 Myrtle Beach, S.C.
I rounded up all the fittings to install the water temp sender in the water hose at my local big box store. One large T, 2 barbed male adapters, reducer , etc, etc. . It looked so ghetto that I put everything back and decided to do some research. I found the right item. It is used by watercooled motorcycles and 4 wheelers since their hoses are about our size. 16mm to 18mm inside. I just ordered mine in gleaming blue. :)
Jose
 

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Jun 21, 2007
2,117
Hunter Cherubini 36_80-82 Sausalito / San Francisco Bay
Wow .. that in-line hose solution really is cool. I wish I had discovered before I installed my sender.
 
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