79' C7C 30 mast lights/wiring

[Wm. Gill]

Can anyone help me figure things out remotely? My survey said "...mast steaming light in-op." I don't know if there are 1 or more lights on this mast (sorry very new to her and missed a lot). I had to store mast down, and the mast is stored away from the boat (long story) so I can't just look. I also had a "handyman" help with unstepping since I didn't know the 1st thing. Unfortunately I still don't because it was a 3 ring circus and I didn't know anything that was happening. I know he disconnected some wires, and I think a VHF cable but am not really sure.

I am taking a Mulligan on last year (my 1st with this boat) because I underestimated how much I would be taking care of my wife through a couple of eye surgeries. I was unable to get to the boat very much at all. What little I did fix, like the bilge pump wiring tells me I have a lot of very old, brittle, non-marine wiring to deal with.

So here comes the rookie questions. First, how many, and what lights are on the mast? What is the wiring configuration? By which I mean, assume 2 lights is there a single 'hot' wire to each and a common ground (either a wire or using the mast as a conductor) or 2 wires to each light? If I were to guess I'd say 1 light with 2 discrete conductors (+12V & ground), but I didn't see, and my memory is always suspect. The handyman did mumble something about the VHF, suggesting no one uses the masthead antenna anymore, relying instead on their handheld VHF (We're on Lake St. Clair).

Any help is deeply appreciated.

 

[kloudie1]

Mast may have three lights .. Anchor light (usually top of mast), Steaming light (usually about half way up mast on front side) , and Deck light (optional, may not be there) .. could be one spotlight incorporated on underside of steaming light fixture or on underside of spreaders . Usually, the mast lights have a common ground wire, but do not use the mast; Some boats however do use the mast as the ground.
The masthead VHF (and associated 25 watt transceiver) gives a lot more range than a handheld (5-7 watts nominal) would.. I call BS on that comment from the guy.

 

[Ralph Johnstone]

I have a lot of very old, brittle, non-marine wiring to deal with.

Don't mean to piss on your corn flakes, but according to stats, faulty electrical wiring is the #1 cause of boat fires. It would very likely be a good idea to replace any wires that you touch eg. bilge pump and mast wiring, with properly sized marine wiring. It would also be worth your safety to start looking at marine electrical books.

For starters, take a look through here for accepted wiring practices:

Marine How To - DIY for Boaters - Marine How To

For DIY boaters in an attempt to try and keep the sport as affordable & safe as possible. How To articles for sailboats and powerboats.

marinehowto.com

@Stu Jackson may also be able to supply a few references to electrical wiring practices.

 

[capta]

The really nice thing about being in your situation is that you can color code every wire and use the old as messengers. Never mind black, red, blue & white normal way to wire your mast. I would use black for ground, maybe yellow for the steaming light, perhaps purple for nav, and white for the white anchor light. On a boat with spreader lights, maybe lime or orange. No one could ever screw up connecting the mast to the vessel. lol

 

[Tally Ho]

As @kloudie1 and @Ralph Johnstone said, usually you could have an anchor light at the very top of the mast, and a steaming light somewhere above the spreaders. The steaming light is used when you are motoring (in the dark). Anchor light is used when at anchor (again in the dark). You also should have some navigation lights (red & green in the front and white pointing aft). You have these on when sailing or motoring in the dark.

There are other lights too, spreader lights (mounted on the spreaders and pointing down on the deck) or a foredeck light (mounted midway up the mast, on the front of the mast, that lights up the foredeck).

I am not familiar with the C&C 30…is it deck-stepped or keel-stepped?

Ypu could take a 12-volt batter with you to where ever the mast is stored (maybe bring some alligator clips ) and test the light that way, if the bulb or wiring is bad in thr mast, way easier to deal with while it is stored. Also a good time to change the anchor light to LED if it isn’t already. Lower power draw overnight with LED.

If it all works for this test, you know any issues will be in the wiring below the mast once it is stepped.

As far as the VHF antenna, a mast-mounted antenna will provide much longer range than a hand-held device. I also pull in AIS info from my mast-mounted antennal. Again, much better range with a mast-mounted antenna.

Good luck, I hope you get things sorted out and get her back on the water soon.

Greg

 

[Wm. Gill]

Mast may have three lights .. Anchor light (usually top of mast), Steaming light (usually about half way up mast on front side) , and Deck light (optional, may not be there) .. could be one spotlight incorporated on underside of steaming light fixture or on underside of spreaders . Usually, the mast lights have a common ground wire, but do not use the mast; Some boats however do use the mast as the ground.
The masthead VHF (and associated 25 watt transceiver) gives a lot more range than a handheld (5-7 watts nominal) would.. I call BS on that comment from the guy.

I'm guessing anchor and steaming lights, but don't recall seeing 4 conductors, only 2
(I think), but as I said I don't trust my memory. It's not likely the wiring is common bell wire like I found on the bilge pump, and the fix will just be bulb replacement not rewiring (fingers crossed), but I assume the wire is anchored at each receptacle and free inside the mast. If I have to rewire I won't attempt to use the old wire as a pull string. Experience tells me that pulling a new string with the old wire is less resistance, and less likelihood of the old wire breaking. New wire and new, solid pull string may seem redundant but worth the extra step. As for the VHF, I never considered his comment seriously.

 

[Wm. Gill]

The really nice thing about being in your situation is that you can color code every wire and use the old as messengers. Never mind black, red, blue & white normal way to wire your mast. I would use black for ground, maybe yellow for the steaming light, perhaps purple for nav, and white for the white anchor light. On a boat with spreader lights, maybe lime or orange. No one could ever screw up connecting the mast to the vessel. lol

Not sure about custom color coding. I will try to adhere to standards with ample labeling. The boat's old enough that I may be her last owner, but I hate working after someone reinvented the wheel in their own image. Especially when they didn't take the time to document their changes.

 

[capta]

Not sure about custom color coding. I will try to adhere to standards with ample labeling. The boat's old enough that I may be her last owner, but I hate working after someone reinvented the wheel in their own image. Especially when they didn't take the time to document their changes.

I should think documentation of changes was understood.

 

[Wm. Gill]

Don't mean to piss on your corn flakes, but according to stats, faulty electrical wiring is the #1 cause of boat fires. It would very likely be a good idea to replace any wires that you touch eg. bilge pump and mast wiring, with properly sized marine wiring. It would also be worth your safety to start looking at marine electrical books.

For starters, take a look through here for accepted wiring practices:

Marine How To - DIY for Boaters - Marine How To

For DIY boaters in an attempt to try and keep the sport as affordable & safe as possible. How To articles for sailboats and powerboats.

marinehowto.com

@Stu Jackson may also be able to supply a few references to electrical wiring practices.

I'm replacing wire as indicated. The bilge pump had very old bell wire (nothing marine about it) that was so brittle even the laziest hack mechanic would have replaced it (it broke practically anywhere you touched it).
When I first got back from Vietnam I worked for a couple months as a final electrical inspector/repairman on the M60 tanks at the Chrysler plant. Mechanics called me sparky, and fled any tank I was working on because they feared electrical sparks. The M60 had a 24VDC system with self-setting circuit breakers (automatically reset after a few seconds). A wire could be good enough to carry the couple milliamps needed to get a 'good' 24 volt reading on a multimeter, but not good enough to carry the actual amperage it was intended to deliver. A 'test' screwdriver shorted to ground that could draw enough current to trip the breaker meant the wire was good to that point. I also lived on an aircraft carrier in a war zone, where everything around either burned, or exploded. Think I am cognizant of both wiring and fires to make sound judgements. So, no you're not pissing in my cornflakes. Thanks for the technical reference. I like to know I'm not reinventing the wheel on projects.

 

[Wm. Gill]

I should think documentation of changes was understood.

I only wish more people thought like that.

 

[Wm. Gill]

As @kloudie1 and @Ralph Johnstone said, usually you could have an anchor light at the very top of the mast, and a steaming light somewhere above the spreaders. The steaming light is used when you are motoring (in the dark). Anchor light is used when at anchor (again in the dark). You also should have some navigation lights (red & green in the front and white pointing aft). You have these on when sailing or motoring in the dark.

There are other lights too, spreader lights (mounted on the spreaders and pointing down on the deck) or a foredeck light (mounted midway up the mast, on the front of the mast, that lights up the foredeck).

I am not familiar with the C&C 30…is it deck-stepped or keel-stepped?

Ypu could take a 12-volt batter with you to where ever the mast is stored (maybe bring some alligator clips ) and test the light that way, if the bulb or wiring is bad in thr mast, way easier to deal with while it is stored. Also a good time to change the anchor light to LED if it isn’t already. Lower power draw overnight with LED.

If it all works for this test, you know any issues will be in the wiring below the mast once it is stepped.

As far as the VHF antenna, a mast-mounted antenna will provide much longer range than a hand-held device. I also pull in AIS info from my mast-mounted antennal. Again, much better range with a mast-mounted antenna.

Good luck, I hope you get things sorted out and get her back on the water soon.

Greg

I was already planning to make a 12V test jig w/alligator clips to test the mast lights. That's partly why I was asking about the wiring configuration.

She is keel stepped, but I'm not sure why that matters, other than where the connection terminals are located? Is there something I should know?

I am assuming it's nothing more than a burned out bulb, but the PO wasn't up front on a couple of other issues, so if I have to rewire, I have to rewire.

I had hoped to get her launched by now, but I had a pretty bad 3 weeks with Covid in January, and several other bugs since (more than I've had in years) so I feel like 72 going on 95 and my definition of "soon" has changed.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

I would never use the mast as a ground. At a minimum, you should have an anchor light at the top of the mast and a steaming light about half way up the mast. If you don't have a deck light, then it's a good idea to buy a steaming / deck light combo. I think that's the better way to go ... I don't particularly care for spreader lights (also, I've never had a boat that had spreader lights). Obviously, since the 3 lights on the mast have separate purposes, you need 3 positive wires running up the mast, one for each light. I prefer to bring the anchor light negative all the way to the bottom of the mast. I join the steaming light negative with the deck light negative together at the fixture (It's possible that the fixture joins the negatives together anyway) and run a single negative from that fixture to the bottom of the mast. At the bottom, I join the 2 negatives together just before entering a 4-prong disconnecting plug. That way, the plug is connecting 3 positives and 1 negative for the run to the DC panel. I size the negative wires accordingly for the round trip length of run with 3 lights operating. It doesn't really matter which way the mast is stepped. It only matters where the connecting plugs are located. Above deck or below deck ... you'll have to find out which way. I use no less that 14 AWG for positives in mast and 12 AWG for single negatives. I used a 10 AWG where all 3 negatives are joined together at the plug and from the run between the plug and the panel. I figure on 100' round trip and 3% voltage drop when I look at the charts, but the charts show 6 AWG for 5 amp voltage. I figure there is no more than 30 watts if all lights are on and amps are 2.5 amp at most. So I'm pretty comfortable with 10 awg for negative lead and I've never experienced any difficulty. It's very,very rare that I have more than one light on at a time anyway. You need to bring a charged battery to your mast. Since your mast is down, I suggest you replace all wiring and secure a conduit inside your mast for the wire runs.

 

[Wm. Gill]

... Since your mast is down, I suggest you replace all wiring and secure a conduit inside your mast for the wire runs.

Having never worked on wiring in a mast I'm curious about access points. I would guess wires pass through a gromet encircled hole unless there is a light receptacle cut into the mast by the manufacturer. The latter would seem to provide minimally larger access, but neither seems to allow much room to install a conduit.
I'm curious about installing and anchoring conduit inside a mast. What can you tell me?

 

[Wm. Gill]

I'm also curious about multi-conductor inline plug/jacks. I have used trailer connectors for some things in the past, but I don't recall seeing many with the larger wire gauges you are talking about. I think there is a terminal strip there now. A little less convenient, but functional.

 

[Tally Ho]

She is keel stepped, but I'm not sure why that matters, other than where the connection terminals are located? Is there something I should know?

It doesn’t mean much…except as you said…where the connections will be. I was just curious.

Greg

 

[Morgan donor]

WM, don't overthink this. This is a simple task. Usually the wires are color coded making connections intuitive. There may be a busbar like connector where the mast wires are inserted and held in place by a set screw. This is simple stuff. I pulled the stick every fall on 38' sailboats for 20 years. The wires come out the bottom or a hole near the bottom. Get a flashlight and hook em up.

 

[LloydB]

Given the low draw of current for LED lamps available today if the mast were mine I would install two separate 16 gauge twisted marine gauge pairs and brand new fixtures for the lamps. As a caution verify that lamps meet Coast Guard requirements before you purchase them. btw testing an LED lamp can be a bit more technical than a conventional resistive lamp from the supply end of the circuit, but much easier from the bottom of the mast than the top. 'just added that for others reading this'

 

[MitchM]

I decided to rewire my 1980 Rhodes 30 some 30 years ago . it had mast top anchor side, mid-mast mounted steaming light and each side of the spreader had its own spreader deck light. deck and the steaming light were both out. the original wiring had 3 red hot wires ; 1 black ground to an old 4-plex. wire coatings were so disintegrated that some of the wire coating was actually crumbling away to the touch. one trip up the mast in my b - chair seeing the condition of the wires into the anchor lite convinced me to put the mast horizontal and rewire the whole thing with it on the ground. it was an easy job and I had no more wiring or light problems, what a relief. ( It did have a separate hot and ground for the VHF which got replaced too. )

 

[Wm. Gill]

I decided to rewire my 1980 Rhodes 30 some 30 years ago . ... it was an easy job and I had no more wiring or light problems, what a relief. ( It did have a separate hot and ground for the VHF which got replaced too. )

May well end up rewiring. If not now, in the future. Out of curiosity, there is no way to install and anchor conduit, or anchor the new wire anywhere but at the receptacle, and near the bottom of the mast, right? I mean the mast itself is a large diameter conduit for halyards and wires, right?

 

[Wm. Gill]

Given the low draw of current for LED lamps available today if the mast were mine I would install two separate 16 gauge twisted marine gauge pairs and brand new fixtures for the lamps. As a caution verify that lamps meet Coast Guard requirements before you purchase them. btw testing an LED lamp can be a bit more technical than a conventional resistive lamp from the supply end of the circuit, but much easier from the bottom of the mast than the top. 'just added that for others reading this'

If I do rewire it doesn't make sense to use incandescent lights. I guess I should have been thinking ahead when I unstepprd her last fall. But this is all new to me. I did have a sailboat 25 years ago, but not long enough to get into anything other than routine maintenance, and stored mast up, so unstepping/stepping were not part of the equation.