7 Years no haul out

[Foswick]

I had written out a long post about this, but decided to cut it short.

These posts come up all the time when someone gets a boat free or cheap, and the response is always the same. The distinct subtext is, "You have no idea what you're getting yourself into. Just give up now and walk away." It is often well-intentioned, but not helpful and usually unrealistically deprecating the boat's condition and the owner's abilities, resourcefulness, and intelligence.

Any boat that can be sailed should be sailed. Sailboat ownership is only ever about putting in the time, effort, and expense to momentarily resist the incessant disintegration of our boats long enough to enjoy one more day on the water. That is true regardless of the sale price.

So, I applaud anyone who rescues a boat, slows this descent, and wins back that day, because it is a good day.

 

[marcham]

The flip side is someone getting into boating with a free boat, planning $3000-$5000 for a refit and then being confronted with $10000-$20000 in necessary repairs to make it seaworthy or insurable.... this happens ALL the time. People abandon boats in yards and then the yard has to pay for disposal..... or even worst, just let them out on anchor to sink (with all markings and paperwork removed naturally). The yard gets a bit of money back from selling the keel, steel and aluminum, but are still under when factoring the time to take it apart and the waste disposal fees

The boating industry exploded with the advent of the fiberglass boat. Now, most of the early builds in the late 60s, 70s and early 80s are coming to the end of their economically viable lifespan. Not necessarily the solid fiberglass hull, but all the other systems or deck and cabin top (wood or foam core). Where I live, we see at least one boat a month drift ashore or sink. They were all nice boats once, but their upkeep becomes impossible. No markings, no one attempts to salvage them, no one calls the harbor authority or coast guard about their sunken/beached boat.

There's a big difference between taking on a well maintained boat vs inheriting a liability!

Case and point, we have a club member that had spent $30 000 on their boat in the past 5 years (re-power). They sold it last spring for $10 000. The new owner has it now abandoned on a mooring ball, threatening the rest of the mooring field. They discovered rot in the cabin top and cracks in the standing rigging (mast).... they just wiped the name off the boat, took their things and walked away.

So yes, trying to tell someone who's just getting into boating with an old/free/very used boat what the possibilities are is good advice. Now if the buyer is retired, has plenty of time and money and needs something to do, then by all means, a boat is an unlimited source of generating things to do and occupying one's time

What is the difference in price to change the mast and standing rigging on a 1980 32' sailboat or a 2022 32' sailboat? $0, NADA...... they will both set you back about $20 000-$30 000 when it's all said and done. A new Dacron cruising sail? Doesn't matter how old the boat is, costs the same for a 1980 or 2022... This is the piece that new boaters don't really grasp. Repairing an old boat costs the same as a new boat, however, there are many many more things that will fail, rot, break on an old boat. So unless it's been well maintained (and this boat has not from all descriptions we've seen), it becomes a proverbial money pit.

Does $$ spent = enjoyment on the water?? That's the equation everyone needs to answer. Once it's out of balance, they stop maintaining it, stop using it and it quickly declines.

My advice for getting into boating and not going bankrupt/divorced:
a) go boating with a friend
b) start small (ie: sub 20 feet)
c) make sure your spouse is also into it...

I gawk at every teak decked Hans Christian I see, but I also having sympathy for the hours and hours spent each month keeping them afloat and dry. Everyone admires an old well maintained boat. They have an indescribable charm. What percentage of sailboats afloat made before 1985 fall into that category?

 

[twodzusfittings]

About "No such thing as a free boat".

So, I applaud anyone who rescues a boat, slows this descent, and wins back that day, because it is a good day.

.....thank you for saying this. I pride myself with having done just that. It's not always about the destination, joy is also found in the journey!

 

[dLj]

These posts come up all the time when someone gets a boat free or cheap, and the response is always the same. The distinct subtext is, "You have no idea what you're getting yourself into. Just give up now and walk away." It is often well-intentioned, but not helpful and usually unrealistically deprecating the boat's condition and the owner's abilities, resourcefulness, and intelligence.

I think this is an overstatement in this thread. I think a lot of folk have given very good advice on what to look for and potential pitfalls. I really disagree with the “just give up now and walk away”...

Any boat that can be sailed should be sailed. Sailboat ownership is only ever about putting in the time, effort, and expense to momentarily resist the incessant disintegration of our boats long enough to enjoy one more day on the water. That is true regardless of the sale price.

Naw – I build or rebuild systems that will not need to be touched again for many years if not decades. In fact I like to think when I build or rebuild a system, I now know enough that I will be doing it better than the manufacturer originally might have. Why? Because I can take the time to look at all aspects of what is being done. I have the luxury of time a manufacturer does not have. Sure, once a system goes into place, it is moving every day towards it's end of life, much like each of us is.... But the concept of day by day? Naw, can't buy the day by day concept you've expressed...

So, I applaud anyone who rescues a boat, slows this descent, and wins back that day, because it is a good day.

I completely agree.

The flip side is someone getting into boating with a free boat, planning $3000-$5000 for a refit and then being confronted with $10000-$20000 in necessary repairs to make it seaworthy or insurable.... this happens ALL the time.

If only facing $10k to $20k.... Often it is much more than that. The real problem is that with older boats, the repairs can easily exceed the value of the boat.

The boating industry exploded with the advent of the fiberglass boat. Now, most of the early builds in the late 60s, 70s and early 80s are coming to the end of their economically viable lifespan. Not necessarily the solid fiberglass hull, but all the other systems or deck and cabin top (wood or foam core). Where I live, we see at least one boat a month drift ashore or sink. They were all nice boats once, but their upkeep becomes impossible.

The problem with old fiberglass boats is that they don't decay. For these old boat to remain viable, one has to maintain them. Upgrade systems, keep them in good shape. The water, especially the ocean is a very hard mistress...

What is the difference in price to change the mast and standing rigging on a 1980 32' sailboat or a 2022 32' sailboat? $0, NADA...... they will both set you back about $20 000-$30 000 when it's all said and done. A new Dacron cruising sail? Doesn't matter how old the boat is, costs the same for a 1980 or 2022... This is the piece that new boaters don't really grasp. Repairing an old boat costs the same as a new boat, however, there are many many more things that will fail, rot, break on an old boat. So unless it's been well maintained (and this boat has not from all descriptions we've seen), it becomes a proverbial money pit.

I think this is a really good point. The costs to change major systems is the same for an old boat as a new boat. Then you have the added difficulty that the old boat may need notable modifications to use the new equipment, increasing the cost. And spending that money doesn't really increase the value, it mostly only facilitates the sale of the boat at it's market value.

At the same time, this becomes what makes buying an old boat an extremely good deal. If you find one that has been well maintained, you can get a very good deal compared to a newer boat...

My advice for getting into boating and not going bankrupt/divorced:
a) go boating with a friend
b) start small (ie: sub 20 feet)
c) make sure your spouse is also into it...

I'd like to add to the above - get a trailerable boat. Trailerable boats can be very low overhead. You don't have the marina fees, the haul out fees. They are smaller and the cost of maintaining them is proportionally lower. There are some very nice trailerable boats that one can spend weekends on and be very comfortable.

I gawk at every teak decked Hans Christian I see, but I also having sympathy for the hours and hours spent each month keeping them afloat and dry. Everyone admires an old well maintained boat. They have an indescribable charm. What percentage of sailboats afloat made before 1985 fall into that category?

I don't know about the hours and hours spent “each month”. When doing the maintenance, you must look at the ways to keep this under control, so to speak.

Teak decks for example, the caulking needs to be redone only about once every 20 years, if using the correct product. I never polish my decks, I let them stay grey. My teak decks are still in excellent shape, they are 25 years old. I'll be redoing the caulking this year but the decks have easily another 25 years left in them, and more likely closer to 75 years. I'll be dead and gone before I have to worry about my teak decks again.

This year I will be spending quite a bit of time working on my bright work. When done, I expect to have minimal work to do on those for a number of years. Modern finishes have greatly improved. I am also looking at refinishing a number of interior wood sections of my boat. It's all mahogany and teak interior. It's also 41 years old. Most of my interior wood work is in great shape, but some areas of either high usage or located near port or the companionway need to be addressed. The wood is still in good shape, but the finishes need to be redone. Once I'm done with this interior work, I'm looking at not touching it again for at least 40 years. Again, probably longer than I'll be alive.

Just a point of interest, in December 2024, phase VII of the Lacey act went into effect. You pretty much won't be able to import a boat with the kind of wood work my boat has anymore. Real teak decks, real wood interiors have been leaving the boat building world for some time, but this act will really take a bite out of future boat building using real wood.

So anyone that has one of these older boats or is looking to get one, I think they are well worth the effort to keep in good shape.

dj

 

[Foswick]

Naw, can't buy the day by day concept you've expressed...

That's not a concept. That is just a physical fact. Every non-living thing on a boat is worse off today than it was yesterday. Your boat, no matter how well maintained, is disintegrating as we speak. We put time, money, and effort into extending the time table, but it is still a fact that we all deal with. The only systems that do not weaken over time, on your boat, without the injection of time/money/effort are mold and mildew.

You might not be comfortable with the way I expressed this, but you can't argue with science.

The real problem is that with older boats, the repairs can easily exceed the value of the boat.

I would say that it almost ALWAYS exceeds the value of the boat, but that is hardly the point. I never do the math. I never ask if such-and-such is money I wish to spend on this boat, considering the value of the boat. I only ask if such-and-such money is worth it to me. As an investment, I am already upside down on my current boat, and I have had her less than a year. But, the money spent is worth it - to me.

It is relatively rare (but certainly not unheard of) to put money into a boat that does not put you further into the red, in terms of its resale value.

I'd like to add to the above - get a trailerable boat.

I'd say, "know thyself". Our first boat was trailerable. But, we kept her docked because I know that if I had to hook up the trailer, drive to the ramp, possibly wait around for my turn, launch, park, etc. then reverse that procedure at the end of the day - I know that I would have rarely gotten out. Even though that sequence isn't THAT big a deal, I am self-aware enough to do know that the perceived hassle would keep me from popping out for a quick sail, more often than not.

Works well for some people - just depends on your personality, the kind of sailing you do, and other logistical details.

 

[kappykaplan]

As an investment, I am already upside down on my current boat, and I have had her less than a year. But, the money spent is worth it - to me.

We probably shouldn't look at our boats as "investments" because they are holes in the water into which we sink money. At my first winter refit, I put almost as much into repairs and upgrades as I paid for her. But I knew that I had a safe boat to take the Scouts on a cruise the following summer!

 

[dLj]

That's not a concept. That is just a physical fact. Every non-living thing on a boat is worse off today than it was yesterday. Your boat, no matter how well maintained, is disintegrating as we speak. We put time, money, and effort into extending the time table, but it is still a fact that we all deal with. The only systems that do not weaken over time, on your boat, without the injection of time/money/effort are mold and mildew.

You might not be comfortable with the way I expressed this, but you can't argue with science.

What is the life span of a fiberglass boat? Please give me the science.

Because if we are presenting an idea of "day by day" when the time measurement is thousands of years or more - I don't buy the "science" defense. It unjustly represents the concept.

I would say that it almost ALWAYS exceeds the value of the boat, but that is hardly the point. I never do the math. I never ask if such-and-such is money I wish to spend on this boat, considering the value of the boat. I only ask if such-and-such money is worth it to me. As an investment, I am already upside down on my current boat, and I have had her less than a year. But, the money spent is worth it - to me.

It is relatively rare (but certainly not unheard of) to put money into a boat that does not put you further into the red, in terms of its resale value.

Well here we are certainly not on the same page. I always look at the math. I always ask if I should spend this amount of money on this boat. My current boat between what I paid for it, and the money I've put into it's upgrades, is easily $100k below what I'd have to pay for a similar boat in it's condition and capabilities. I will always watch what I spend. Now, can I get that back for this specific boat when I go to sell her? Time will tell. But even if I just pretty much break even - I'll be a very happy camper.

I'd say, "know thyself". Our first boat was trailerable. But, we kept her docked because I know that if I had to hook up the trailer, drive to the ramp, possibly wait around for my turn, launch, park, etc. then reverse that procedure at the end of the day - I know that I would have rarely gotten out. Even though that sequence isn't THAT big a deal, I am self-aware enough to do know that the perceived hassle would keep me from popping out for a quick sail, more often than not.

Works well for some people - just depends on your personality, the kind of sailing you do, and other logistical details.

My comment on a trailerable boat was to add onto a list about how to not spend a lot of money sailing. I'm not sure what your comment above has to do with that. You don't like them. Fine. It's still a very viable and inexpensive option for someone to get into sailing.

dj

 

[dLj]

We probably shouldn't look at our boats as "investments" because they are holes in the water into which we sink money. At my first winter refit, I put almost as much into repairs and upgrades as I paid for her. But I knew that I had a safe boat to take the Scouts on a cruise the following summer!

I completely agree with this.

Unless we are running a commercial boat, and that boat is the investment needed to run in the specific commercial world it's designed to be used for, then we are simply recreational boaters. If we buy climbing gear because we like to climb, we don't look at that gear as an investment. It's an expense we have to enjoy our recreation. I've never heard anyone say, I bought this kayak as an investment (unless it's a business) - so why do we use that term for recreational sailboats? But we do it all the time... go figure...

Now do I watch how much money I spend on my boat? Sure. But I don't consider it an investment.

dj

 

[Foswick]

What is the life span of a fiberglass boat? Please give me the science.

Finite. The second law of thermodynamics.

My comment on a trailerable boat was to add onto a list about how to not spend a lot of money sailing. I'm not sure what your comment above has to do with that. You don't like them. Fine. It's still a very viable and inexpensive option for someone to get into sailing.

Yeah, I went back and realized I was commenting a bit out of context.

 

[dLj]

Finite. The second law of thermodynamics.

The second law of thermodynamics: The second law of thermodynamics states that the total entropy of a closed system either increases or remains constant in any spontaneous process; it never decreases, meaning that processes tend towards increasing disorder and that not all heat can be converted into work in a cyclic process.

Argumentum absurdum est.

dj

 

[Foswick]

Argumentum absurdum est.

I kind of feel like you've either missed the point or you just don't believe in entropy.

Every physical system, including a boat, obeys the Second Law of Thermodynamics. That means, left alone, every part of your boat—from metal fittings to gelcoat to electrical systems - tends toward disorder. Wood rots, metal corrodes, plastic degrades, and seals dry out. That’s entropy, and boats are great place to observe it in action.

Yes, you can counteract that by putting energy into the system—by maintaining, replacing, protecting, and upgrading parts. That effort temporarily reverses local disorder, but only by adding energy (your time, money, labor).

The fact that your repair may 'last decades' doesn’t change the principle—it just means you’ve successfully pushed back entropy for a while. But even that new part is decaying from the moment it's installed.

So I’m not saying boats instantly fall apart—I’m saying boats want to fall apart, all the time. And the only thing stopping them is us.

Are you really arguing against this?

 

[marcham]

Hopefully we haven't scared OP away.... boats are awesome. the boating community is awesome. Just be ready to foot the bill...... I just found out today my prop is heavily pitted..... that will be a 4 to 5 BOAT unit expense that we had not accounted for this year... oh well.

 

[Bob1992]

You guys have given me a lot to think about. I’m definitely going to go into this with an open mind and not get too caught up in wanting to take ownership, I’ll look at it from a very realistic standpoint of what condition she’s in and what I’m looking at as far as expenses. Again I really appreciate everyone helping me out with this and sharing all of your expertise and experience. I’ll be going up there in about a week to look at her and hopefully have a much better idea of the condition. I’ll be sure to get lots of pics as well! As far as the deck goes, I know a soft spots can be a big repair but if I find any that aren’t too big, I’m not too concerned about repairing those. However if I find any soft spots in the deck around the mast, would you think that’s something I should walk away from? Seems like that could be a pretty significant issue structurally?

 

[Bob1992]

Like we all have talked about, I don’t mind putting some work and money into her as that’s unavoidable. I just have to make sure I keep a level head and don’t get in too deep over my head in expenses or repairs. Could be an excellent deal or something that I need to walk away from. Current owner said that boat was in good condition and the cabin was very clean and in great shape however earlier this year he received a call that he had some water in the boat. A wire had come loose from the bilge pump and the bilge filled up. Not sure how much water exactly got into the boat or how long it was in there before being noticed (definitely less than a year). I believe the cabin interior is teak and holly (floorboards being teak I believe)…. Any thoughts about this? I know we’ll have to get out there and see it, could be minor or it could have done some damage. Would this have the potential to affect the boat structurally?

 

[dLj]

Like we all have talked about, I don’t mind putting some work and money into her as that’s unavoidable. I just have to make sure I keep a level head and don’t get in too deep over my head in expenses or repairs. Could be an excellent deal or something that I need to walk away from. Current owner said that boat was in good condition and the cabin was very clean and in great shape however earlier this year he received a call that he had some water in the boat. A wire had come loose from the bilge pump and the bilge filled up. Not sure how much water exactly got into the boat or how long it was in there before being noticed (definitely less than a year). I believe the cabin interior is teak and holly (floorboards being teak I believe)…. Any thoughts about this? I know we’ll have to get out there and see it, could be minor or it could have done some damage. Would this have the potential to affect the boat structurally?

Anything can be fixed, the question is it worth the effort given there are so many boats on the used market. Boats of this size and vintage are not bringing a lot of money in general.

No one can answer from here what kind of water damage may exist. You have to look at the boat and evaluate whatever damage may exist on that specific boat. If the floor boards were submerged, that could cause delamination and require you to build a new floor. A teak and holly floor is not cheap. There are inexpensive ways to redo floors. I would definitely look at the structure supporting the floors. If redoing floors and substructure, that can be a pretty big project.

I don't know on the Hunter 33 but the Hunter 30's of this vintage had a steel I beam at the base of the mast. Definitely check the mast base. If water levels went high enough to hit any wiring - you are likely looking at a rewiring job.

Look at your keel bolts. Take pictures. Look carefully. The Hunter 33 was a really nice boat. Nice size, nice layout, nice sailing boat. The question is, what is its current condition.

dj

 

[jssailem]

Bob, I had an experience last year. Water leaked into the boat because of an error made by my mechanic. It was in the boat for a couple of days before a friend noticed the boat below its water line. We got it pumped out and resolved the source of the leak. The worse damage was to the electrical systems that were immersed in the water. Total rebuild for wires below the waterline. You look at the wood just above the deck and you can see a subtle water line 9 inches above the cabin sole.

If a boat has had water in it for a long time you will see a definite line about the cabin at the same height all around. I would pass on a boat that has been submerged for an unknown period.

That is unless you are planning a gut and rebuild attempt.

 

[Bob1992]

Good info here. I’ll be sure to see what kind of water line there is as that’ll be a good indication of the amount of water and how long it was there, I’ll also do a good inspection of the sub floor to make sure that’s not compromised and around the mast base as well. I’ll definitely be sure to give the keel bolts a good inspection as well. And of course lots of pictures

 

[dLj]

I kind of feel like you've either missed the point or you just don't believe in entropy.

Every physical system, including a boat, obeys the Second Law of Thermodynamics. That means, left alone, every part of your boat—from metal fittings to gelcoat to electrical systems - tends toward disorder. Wood rots, metal corrodes, plastic degrades, and seals dry out. That’s entropy, and boats are great place to observe it in action.

Yes, you can counteract that by putting energy into the system—by maintaining, replacing, protecting, and upgrading parts. That effort temporarily reverses local disorder, but only by adding energy (your time, money, labor).

The fact that your repair may 'last decades' doesn’t change the principle—it just means you’ve successfully pushed back entropy for a while. But even that new part is decaying from the moment it's installed.

So I’m not saying boats instantly fall apart—I’m saying boats want to fall apart, all the time. And the only thing stopping them is us.

Are you really arguing against this?

It's not that I "believe" in entropy or not. I understand what entropy means and it's limitations. Entropy is not a driving force for reactions to take place, it is used in energy balance equations to explain energy efficiency and loss of energy not explained through the other laws of thermodynamics. In order to be a driving force, then in any reaction the change of entropy would have to be greater than 0, but the definition is greater than or equal to 0.

In fact, it is a statistical approximation to an observed phenomena and cannot be applied on the micro scale, only the macro scale. What this says to me is that our understanding of entropy is incomplete. We still don't know the true fundamentals of this concept. Hence, the "cosmic" time scale conclusions, as you have posited, in my opinion are extrapolations not interpolations of what is known currently of entropy.

dj

 

[Foswick]

It's not that I "believe" in entropy or not.

But, are you saying that boats are not constantly in a state of degradation? That unless we are putting energy into holding them together that they are actively falling apart at all times?

I mean, that's just a basic fact of boat ownership. I'm not sure what your argument against that is. I'm sure you have a point, but my sense is that you just object to thinking about it on a compressed time scale. That is, since a thing will last 20 years, you don't see the degradation in a 24-hour period as being significant.

I think we are either just talking cross purposes and/or you are trying to argue some point that escapes me.

In any case, we are well off the thread, here.

 

[dlochner]

@dLj and @Foswick at its core the two of you are speaking different languages using the same words. One of you is describing "entropy' in its common language meaning, the other is using "entropy" in a more precise and scientific meaning. Neither of you are incorrect, just using different numbered definitions in the OED.

As things on my boat continue to surprise me with how and when they fail, I might consider that a form of entropy, but that is different than how the principle of entropy affects compounds that I vaguely remember from my days as an aspiring chemist.