6 Year Wal*Mart Battery Observations

[jibes138]

Re: 5 Year Wal*Mart Battery Observations

I just bought a Duracell at Sam's for a 2000 ford F150 based on MaineSail's recommendation. 72 bucks and fully charged at about 12.6 volts but my 30 or 40 year old analog meter has a lot of error in it. Voltage coming off the alternator was about 13.8 volts. I am waiting to see if this battery meets my expectations or if i have to return here and blast MaineSail for recommending it. His taste in Bluegrass music is pretty good, I hope his taste in batteries is also.

 

[Tom Metzger]

t metzger, scales don't lie, mainsail weighed the batteries and compared the walmarts versus dekkas

OK, you are saying that the batteries that MS checked on represent all batteries from a given manufacturer? Don't count on it?

For the record, I wasn't speaking of any specific manufacturer. I was speaking from experience having purchased a few hundred thousand dollars worth of batteries over the years.

And BTW, is anyone surprised that WM sells above list price?

 

[Sail123]

Walmart is not a retail store, they are buyers of products they themselves order to exacting specifications. Anyone that thinks the lead is the same quality and mass as any (any) other battery made is quite possibly wrong.

The typical walmart customer does not do warranty claims, and the typical interstate battery customer does do warranty claims. Both companies know where the profit line is in the sand, and both companies order batteries to make a profit.

I shop at walmart. Shamefully, I do. They are killing American jobs every time that vacuum controlled door opens and Chinese junk floods our markets.

 

[Maine Sail]

Walmart is not a retail store, they are buyers of products they themselves order to exacting specifications. Anyone that thinks the lead is the same quality and mass as any (any) other battery made is quite possibly wrong.

With Johnson Controls batteries this may be true but, may not be too. Of course some batteries sold by JCI are not even JCI batteries. My batteries are a perfect example. They were made by a small company called US Battery for JCI who then sold them to Wal*Mart. They are NO DIFFERENT than the battery US Battery sells with their own label on it. I know because I tracked down the origins of my batteries and spoke directly with US Battery about them.

Interestingly enough they physically tested identically when new, and had the identical specs, to some other JCI deep cycle batteries, in the same case, and to the naked eye identical other than a sticker, sold by my buddy Dave who is a local battery distributor. These batteries were sold under an independent brand. At the time my cost $112.00 each and I paid $69.00... None of this changes the fact that they've done quite well.. Both of these batteries are the same US Battery product just $43.00 less per battery at Wal*Mart.

Also we do known for a fact that the Deka / East Penn batteries sold at Sam's Club, which is owned by Wal*Mart and named after Sam Walton, are 100% the same as the Deka / East Penn batteries sold at West Marine which sell for double or more... I have confirmed this with Deka / East Penn and the only difference between the batteries at Sam's Club, NAPA, O'Reilly Auto, West Marine or the Deka Marine Master label is the sticker... Why pay a premium for the same product in this case..?

The typical walmart customer does not do warranty claims, and the typical interstate battery customer does do warranty claims.

Wal*Mart invested nearly $2000.00 per store in Midtronics battery analyzers for warranty claims. In talking with my local store manager it has saved the company millions of dollars in bogus returns. People used to kill/completely discharge a battery right before the warranty expired and then return it knowing Wal*Mart would not try to charge it before issuing a refund/exchange. With an antique load tester this deceitful trick worked. The Midtronics analyzers don't rely on state of charge to test battery life and customers can no longer rip Wal*Mart off because they have invested heavily in the best battery analyzers money can buy.

Also the "marine" batteries I bought at Wal*Mart had a better free replacement warranty than West Marine, Trojan, Lifeline or many other "premium" batteries at 18 months free replacement. I still would not buy the current marine batteries they sell and would go to Sam's first..

Both companies know where the profit line is in the sand, and both companies order batteries to make a profit.

All companies sell product to make a profit. I'm sure Deka makes a hell of a lot less money selling to Sam's Club then they do selling to NAPA or West Marine but the volume is HUGE and it keeps US factories running and US jobs are producing the Sam's Club Deka / East Penn batteries. Sadly for this country profit is now perceived as a dirty word.

I shop at walmart. Shamefully, I do. They are killing American jobs every time that vacuum controlled door opens and Chinese junk floods our markets.

Wal*Mart is the only one selling Chinese product? The batteries they sell are not made in China BTW.. My batteries are US MADE!!! It was not too long ago everyone referred to Japanese product as "junk" now Japanese products are considered to be some of the most reliable premium products on the planet. Companies like Honda and Toyota kick our butts on reliability AND do so on US soil with Americans building highly reliable cars.

None of this changes the fact that improper care can kill even a "premium brand" battery in a few years, and good care can help a "cheap" battery last well beyond the Ah to $$ you paid for it..

 

[BillyK]

None of this changes the fact that improper care can kill even a "premium brand" battery in a few years, and good care can help a "cheap" battery last well beyond the Ah to $$ you paid for it..

I am looking to build a Battery bank for My boat now, and i was thinking exactly what you said here.. I wonder how much of the bad press different brands get are due to people not knowing exactly how battery systems work. Its much easier to destroy a battery than to keep one alive and healthy for years. it actually takes work and paying attention to what you are doing to it.. So what i'm thinking, is that i'll go cheap, and do the work to keep them healthy.. if that fails, i'll learn and go less cheap next time.. if it doesn't, i'll continue to go cheap and do right by the batteries.. SLA is very simple.. but keeping them in top shape isn't.

 

[Dennisail]

Re: 5 Year Wal*Mart Battery Observations

Great thread. I have 6 Trojan T145 batteries on my Hunter 40.5 which I just purchased. They are only 2 or 3 years old. I purchased the boat in October at Longbeach and went back to Australia during which time which it was left by someone other than me with a few appliances running and no shore charging. They were down to under 12 volts when I arrived 1 week ago.

I charged them for 4 days with the high powered heart charger and done a crude load test just turning on roughly 15A of load and monitored it with the E-meter. Overnight I am down to under 12V and the E-meter only reads 180ah.

The battery boxes I have fit the T145s pretty much exactly. So if the battery is bigger in any dimension they will not fit. Are there any cheaper batteries that are the same dimensions or smaller than the T145s?

I bill be doing a years worth of offshore cruising with these. Do you think it might be worth it in my case to just get new T145s? Is there any chance I could repair these batteries with anti sulphation liquid etc?

 

[Rick D]

Great thread. I have 6 Trojan T145 batteries on my Hunter 40.5 which I just purchased. They are only 2 or 3 years old. I purchased the boat in October at Longbeach and went back to Australia during which time which it was left by someone other than me with a few appliances running and no shore charging. They were down to under 12 volts when I arrived 1 week ago.

I charged them for 4 days with the high powered heart charger and done a crude load test just turning on roughly 15A of load and monitored it with the E-meter. Overnight I am down to under 12V and the E-meter only reads 180ah.

The battery boxes I have fit the T145s pretty much exactly. So if the battery is bigger in any dimension they will not fit. Are there any cheaper batteries that are the same dimensions or smaller than the T145s?

I bill be doing a years worth of offshore cruising with these. Do you think it might be worth it in my case to just get new T145s? Is there any chance I could repair these batteries with anti sulphation liquid etc?

Dennis, forget the reconditioning. From your description of the load test, they are way gone. I sent an e-mail before I saw this thread: dimensionally, the T145's are slightly taller than T125 or T105's but are the same with and length, so fit will not be a problem with WalMarts or other 6 volt Golf Cart batteries.

As for the decision to purchase T145's or Sam's Club or equivalent, the only thing I can say is that I am getting about the same use with the Sam's Club as I did with the T125's I had, namely about three years. However, Trojans have a great reputation and terrific quality, so in the grand scheme of things, $600 more may be worth your piece of mind and you'll have 120 total more amp hours (if that makes a difference). Tough call.

 

[tommays]

I have more 6 volt battery's of every brand know to man in every kind of pallet jack and floor scrubber and if you keep them wet and charged there is pretty much no difference

On the other hand you can kill most anything in a few weeks EVEN the GIANT 2 VOLT forklift cells the make the battery packs out of

 

[Kettlewell]

On the other hand you can kill most anything in a few weeks EVEN the GIANT 2 VOLT forklift cells the make the battery packs out of

I have used all sorts of batteries over the years, and I would agree with the above statement. The technology dates back to the late 19th century, so there are really no secrets here that one manufacturer takes advantage of over the others. Oh sure, there are probably tiny differences so that the marketing department has something to crow about, but in reality the difference is measured in single digits of percent. Yes, you can have thicker plates--check the weights of the batteries and that will pretty much tell you which battery has more lead in it and is probably more of a deep cycler, but that is about all you can tell from the specs. Quality of construction probably makes a difference, but who can tell that except maybe by reputation? You can't tell by looking at the thing--they all look the same, because they are almost identical inside and outside. We have an antique auto museum in town and there is an electric car there with a body that looks like a horse carriage converted, but if you look at the batteries they look almost identical to what is on the shelf at WalMart or Sears, and they probably are.

In my experience, which is purely anecdotal, I have had great service out of WalMart batteries I have bought and used in cars for decades. They have never failed to far exceed the warranty period.

 

[Dennisail]

Re: 5 Year Wal*Mart Battery Observations

Yeah tough call. If I was not sailing across the pacific it would be a no brainer to get the cheap batteries. But since I will be putting huge demands on them over a year by living aboard with no shore charging they may be some reason to spend up. If just for the reason that if they do die getting replacements will be even more expensive in the middle of the pacific. Plus the extra ah will be good.

I am tossing up adding 2 more batteries. 6 x cheap batteries will give a good bank and will last a while given that the discharge % will be lower for a given load compared to 4.

I have been cycling the batteries and last time I went down to 10.5V (not good to do this often I know) and I got 360ah. So maybe they are not that bad? I stopped the test last time at only 11.7v ish as I didn't want to over discharge them...

 

[Rick D]

I have been cycling the batteries and last time I went down to 10.5V (not good to do this often I know) and I got 360ah. So maybe they are not that bad? I stopped the test last time at only 11.7v ish as I didn't want to over discharge them...

There are many smarter guys than I on this subject who will weigh in, and you know what you are doing, but I would observe that your description of your intended use and cycle times for the trip kinda begs for nice fresh batteries to start with. It would be expensive to make a bad call. That, and you are getting less than half the theoretical capacity of a new bank of T145's. Then again, it's always easier to spend someone else's money.

 

[Kettlewell]

Re: 5 Year Wal*Mart Battery Observations

Alternatively we do known for a fact that the Deka / East Penn batteries sold at Sam's Club, which is owned by Wal*Mart and named after Sam Walton, are 100% the same as the Deka / East Penn batteries sold at West Marine which sell for double or more... I have confirmed this with Deka / East Penn and the only difference between the batteries at Sam's Club, NAPA, O'Reilly Auto, West Marine or the Deka Marine Master label is the sticker..

Having read this I stopped by my nearest Sam's Club today and I must say they seem to have the best battery deals going right now, especially considering what you say above. I don't think you can beat the price/quality ratio of their EGC2 6-volt golf cart batteries at $88.74 each and 230 AH, but I was intrigued by the GC12 12-volt cart batteries for $184.24 each and 155 AH. They are about the size of a Group 31 battery, but something like 11.5 inches tall, and each weighs 90 lbs! However, for someone like me they provide a lot more capacity than a standard Group 31 and would fit right into my battery box as I have tons of height above the batteries. I would need four of the EGC2s for a total of $354.96 to match up to three of the GC12s at $552.72, but either way I would be gaining about 150 AH of capacity over my current set up of 3 Group 31s, which would be nice.

 

[victorhoisington]

Re: 5 Year Wal*Mart Battery Observations

Thanks for this great detailed post. I've been wondering about this for a while and lurking on thsi forum as variuous disucssions about batteries come and go.

One item I'll add to your post, I have a Hunter 28 w/2 mismatched batteries (from previous owner). I covered the boat, left the solar charger (small 5 Amp model) out and everything connected but turned off. Several times during the winter, as I checked the boat, I checked the batteries and found them fully charged and ready to go. I have a small battery tender/monitor which shows current charge state and voltage in and it always showed full charge on both batteries.

The Solar charger of course, stays on the boat all summer and keeps the batteries topped off while on the dock (no shore power).

Your info, just confirms that, until they come up with some really wild new technology, nothing beats the lead acid for price, reliability and performance.

Thanks for all of the detailed research.

Victor
"French Temper"
Hunter 28

 

[Maine Sail]

Update

Our boat is still in the water but the other day while there I took some "end of season" measurements, on our bank of batteries. They are just completing their 6th season.

This is the bank of three Wal*Mart group 31 batteries purchased/installed in the spring of 2007.

Unfortunately all I had with me was my Midtronics analyzer and not the Argus analyzer which is what I have been using as my baseline. Still, it was a cold morning and the batteries themselves were at 32F. I wanted to see how they tested under these conditions for capacitance as well as voltage dip during starting...

This first photo shows the resting voltage , though not technically "resting" as they were still connected to the system. The batteries had been disconnected from the solar panel for about two weeks. Our system has a 0.1A +/- parasitic load and the open circuit voltage at the end of two weeks was still at 12.69V.. Normal full charge resting voltages for these batteries has been 12.72 - 12.73V

The analyzer also shows the measured cold cranking capacity or "CCA". Each of the three batteries is rated at 675 CCA so all three in parallel should be at 2025CCA. At 32F they put up 2071 CCA which is still 46CCA better than their "as new" rating.

The display also shows the actual battery case temperature. I had left my battery box open so they were not kept as warm as normal, by the bilge temps..

I did not have the time to break them apart and test them individually. That is the best test. I will do a lot more testing including a 20 hour Ah capacity load test when the boat gets home.

Season six went from April 16th 2012 to (still in the water)

Battery Performance:

This next shot shows how the battery bank and system wiring performed under starting conditions. These numbers are the "averages" during starting.

The first line is the average voltage during starting. Anything over 10.5 volts is considered good. The bank has a slight dip to the high 11's but recovered enough to still maintain an average voltage during starting of 12.04V at 32F...

The second line is the average amps during the starting duration. With the engine cold she draws more in-rush and overall current during starting than when she is 70F like during the summer sailing season. The peak in-rush current was about 640A and the average was 286A.

The third line shows the time it took for our motor to start from the first click of the starter until the starter became "unloaded".. The entire duration of time it takes for our 44HP Westerbeke engine to fire is just 746mS / 0.746 seconds or roughly 3/4 of a second to fire....

The last line is the average starting circuit resistance. It shows 15.1mΩ/milliohm or 0.0151Ω / Ohms of resistance in the circuit. This is an excellent number meaning our cables and connections are in very, very good shape and properly sized.

The next photo shows what the starting current looks like graphed out remember this represents 0.75 seconds of time:

The last photo shows how the battery bank supported voltage during the starting event. This is exceptional performance for six year old deep cycle batteries that have been in a deep cycling application. What makes this even more impressive is what temperature the batteries were, 32F....

For a $210.00 bank of Wal*Mart batteries, that have never been equalized, and have been stored on the boat every "harsh winter" winter, and even went one entire winter without being "topped off" at all, I'd say were are getting stellar performance.....

The only changes made to the system this year were upgrading to a 140A alternator & serpentine belt kit, but they are still charged via a "dumb regulator" not a "smart" one. I also changed the solar panel from an 80W to a 140W panel. The Genasun MPPT solar controller is still the same.

More testing to come over the winter.....

 

[monkeybars]

Re: 5 Year Wal*Mart Battery Observations

refering to the gentleman who claims walmart is having its battery's made with inferior lead to make-up for the reduced retail pricing, i have not yet been able to figure a way get two identical battery's(except brand label) that each weigh 62pounds to have different quality lead alloys and still weigh 62 pounds each. To make a reasonable increase in profits, say 10 dollars, you would have to reduce lead content by at least five pounds.So just what would they be putting in their battery's to keep them up to the 62 pound weight? Gold,depleted uranium ? any ideas

 

[Maine Sail]

refering to the gentleman who claims walmart is having its battery's made with inferior lead to make-up for the reduced retail pricing, i have not yet been able to figure a way get two identical battery's(except brand label) that each weigh 62pounds to have different quality lead alloys and still weigh 62 pounds each. To make a reasonable increase in profits, say 10 dollars, you would have to reduce lead content by at least five pounds.So just what would they be putting in their battery's to keep them up to the 62 pound weight? Gold,depleted uranium ? any ideas

A funny thing occurred when I was trying to determine what the Peukert Exponenet was for these batteries. I was told by Wal*Mart / Bentonville that the batteries I own were made by JCI (Johnson Controls). Sounds perfectly reasonable they make LOTS of batteries.

So I called JCI. JCI could not provide me with a Peukert Exponent. Odd? One day a few months later I was talking to an engineer for US Battery to get the Peukert number for a US Battery DCXC 31 and I realized that battery had the identical case to mine.

I asked him if they ever sold batteries to JCI for Wal*Mart. "Oh yeah we supplied that battery to JCI." "Do you know the Peukert Exponent?" within 10 seconds he'd looked it up. I also found out that it is the SAME battery they sell to many other sources as well as sell themselves. Like Deka they run batteries off an assembly line and they all get different stickers but the batteries don't change. These batteries are no different than any other retail or wholesale channel selling this same battery..

Same with Deka/East Penn. You can pay Sam's Club $83.00 for the SAME EXACT BATTERY you buy at West Marine for $269.00. The only difference is the sticker...

But yeah these Wal*Mart batteries clearly are "junk"....