5-7 foot itus

[OdayDave]

I'm looking at a couple of boats now that 5-6 foot-itus has set in. I currently sail an O'Day 25 with an inboard on Lake Michigan and have enjoyed sailing the boat for the last 5 years. It's fine for coastal sailing and occasional crossings, but it get's a little tight when cruising for a week and so the admiral has suggested (perhaps not vetoed is a better characterization) a larger boat. I'm looking in the 30-32 ft. range. I've found a couple of boats in decent shape that fit the bill, but both have one issue that gives me some concern.

One is a 1985 Islander 30 with a fin keel and a Yanmar 13. It's well maintained, but my primary concern is that the 13 hp diesel is underpowered for a boat in the 8200 lb range. The O'Day we have is 6.5 hp Yanmar with about 4.5k weight. It get's bogged down in headwinds/waves when you need to motor. I find a lot written about the Islander's and the reviews are generally positive, and a few have commented on the small engines being underpowered.

The other is a 1989 Newport 31 that is also in nice shape. It's got an 18 hp Universal and so the power seems adequate. On the downside, it has a wing keel although the keel is still nearly 5 ft. and the wings are small (10 inches each). Still I'm concerned about the "anchor effect" of the wing if I get grounded, and I've gotten mixed signals on the quality of these boats.

Other boats I've looked at include C&C's, Ericsen's, and Catalina's. I know this is limited information and everyone has their favorites. I'm planning on just doing Great Lakes sailing with most on Lake Michigan. I would appreciate any perspectives on these issues or other things to consider concerning these two boats.

Thanks,

Dave
s/v Lagniappe
O'Day 25

 

[reworb]

13 hp is way under-powered for a 30 foot boat. I have a Beneteau 311 which has 18hp and it could use a few more horses. My prior boat was a Catalina 28 that had 23hp, much better at motoring. A choppy day motoring on the lake will make you wish you had a bigger engine.

Is there a reason you are looking at a boat with a wing keel? My Catalina originally came with a fin keel but when we moved to Florida we had it switched to a wing keel (because of the shallow water) it pointed better with the fin. I ran out of a channel with my Catalina and ran a ground had to get TowBoat to tow me off so yes the wings do get buried.

Unless you have a good reason for wing i.e. shoal draft (5ft on a 30 footer is not shoal draft) I would keep looking. Free advise it's worth what you paid for it.

 

[Bob S]

I'm not so sure 13hp is way under powered for a lake. Dave won't be dealing with currents.That being said I have 23hp on our 30.
I've read both sides of this argument but have no real experience.-footitus has stricken my wife for the past three seasons. Good luck!

 

[Skipper]

13hp is not under powered.
I have an M-18 which is 14hp 2 cylinder. Have not once needed to go over 2,500 rpm. Redline is 3,200.
And my boat is 8,700lbs dry. About 10,000 with water fuel gear and me.
Have sailed same boat for years on upper Chesapeake and SoCal Pacific. Motor power has always been adequate.
You have to remember that even though it's 13hp, it's a diesel so there's about 25 ft lbs torque; double that of a similar hp gas engine.

 

[JohnVTX]

I am on a lake. 30 foot Catalina TR 11,000lbs empty. Universal 18, no issues

 

[CloudDiver]

Diesel motors should be compared in terms of torque, not HP. The 13 HP on the Islander can potentially be under powered if the incorrect prop is installed... With the right prop that little torque monster could get you up to hull speed at relatively low rpm which is you want for fuel consumption. In this case we are talking about power not it terms of how fast you can go, but how effectively you can get up to hull speed at low to mid-range rpm.

 

[quadrille38]

I'm not so sure 13hp is way under powered for a lake. Dave won't be dealing with currents.That being said I have 23hp on our 30.
I've read both sides of this argument but have no real experience.-footitus has stricken my wife for the past three seasons. Good luck!

Lake Michgan is not your typical lake. Ted Turner derided it as a "lake" once until he actually sailed on it and he came away with a new found respect. It's 70 NM across and 250 NM long. There actually are currents and we get waves that are much steeper and with closer frequency than the swells you see in the ocean. 15 to 20 knot winds and 6 to 8 foot waves can be common.

I've owned an O'Day 28 that had a 30 hp sail drive, a Catalina 34 that had a Universal 21 hp and now a Hunter 38 that has a 40 hp Yanmar.

My opinion based on 30 years of sailing on the "lake" is that the boats you are looking at are a bit underpowered and you will not be happy motoring into a head wind / waves with any of them. Now if you want to hoist sail and tack your way there that's a different story.

I'd suggest in that size range to look at either a Catalina 30 - many came with the 21 hp universal or an M25 XP that was a 25 hp power plant.
Or if you can find a good Catalina 34 go for it. It's a fabulous boat and we loved ours. It could be a little underpowered at times but not nearly as much as what you've been looking at.

 

[whatfiero]

If you have a 25' now go ahead and save some time and go straight to 40' and if you cat afford wait till ya can 25' to 30' not much different

 

[wufibugs]

Gotta disagree, What. There is an enormous difference between the 25's I looked at and the comfort level of my 31'. It's something you really feel after a couple of nights. While having a 40' would be great, you have to remember that after 27' most folks are into a slip rental. Depending on where you sail, those 10' can be costly. Also, depending on your age and condition, washing, waxing and hull maintenance on that extra 10 feet can become a chore.

 

[sail_MN]

5000 lbs. vs 10000 lbs. Yeah there is a difference.

 

[Tally Ho]

I'm not so sure 13hp is way under powered for a lake. Dave won't be dealing with currents.That being said I have 23hp on our 30.
I've read both sides of this argument but have no real experience.-footitus has stricken my wife for the past three seasons. Good luck!

Lake Michigan is not any ordinary lake

My O'Day 322 has an 18 hp Yanmar, and it ok, but I would prefer a 3 cylinder in this boat. My Hunter 280 had the same engine, but weighed 3,000 pounds less, and was well powered.

I don't generally worry about grounding on Lake Michigan....where are you sailing?

Greg

 

[OdayDave]

Thanks to all for the comments. Going beyond 32 is not an option. Lake Michigan can kick up some ugly waves and while most of my sailing is daysailing, I do cruise around the lake for 1-2 weeks each summer and plan to do even more in the next 15-20 years. I've been bogged down motoring into weather on Lake Michigan with inadequate power on the O'Day 25 and it's a slog. The Islander engine would be fine 95% of the time. It's that 5% that concerns me. Quadrille38's comments are well taken. I would probably be comfortable as long as I had at least met the 1hp/500 lb rule of thumb. The Newport is 8500 lbs so 18 hp exceeds that.

On the Newport, I would be interested in other opinions on the wing keel, and also on whether there are quality issues on the Newport. It's a freshwater boat that looks like it has been cared for very well. There are other boats to look at, but I've seen this one and I like what I've seen so far.

Dave
s/v Lagniappe
O'Day 25

 

[OdayDave]

Greg -

I sail out of South Shore in Milwaukee and typically bounce up and down the lake but also have been in Door County. I've gone across a few times and the connected lakes (White Lake, Pentwater, Manistee) are great destinations. I would like to do Beaver Island, Mackinac, etc.

Dave
s/v Lagniappe
O'Day 25

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Maintained condition is probably more important than any perceived quality issues for these boats built in the 80's. I would guess that all of these production boats are pretty much similar in terms of build quality. The differences will lie in how the boats are maintained. Newport 31 sounds like a pretty good option. The 5' winged keel is perhaps a bit "shoalish". I would think that grounding is not a very common occurrence on Lake Michigan. Perhaps you can sail it if you have any concerns performance wise.

 

[quadrille38]

Thanks to all for the comments. Going beyond 32 is not an option. Lake Michigan can kick up some ugly waves and while most of my sailing is daysailing, I do cruise around the lake for 1-2 weeks each summer and plan to do even more in the next 15-20 years. I've been bogged down motoring into weather on Lake Michigan with inadequate power on the O'Day 25 and it's a slog. The Islander engine would be fine 95% of the time. It's that 5% that concerns me. Quadrille38's comments are well taken. I would probably be comfortable as long as I had at least met the 1hp/500 lb rule of thumb. The Newport is 8500 lbs so 18 hp exceeds that.

On the Newport, I would be interested in other opinions on the wing keel, and also on whether there are quality issues on the Newport. It's a freshwater boat that looks like it has been cared for very well. There are other boats to look at, but I've seen this one and I like what I've seen so far.

Dave
s/v Lagniappe
O'Day 25

My 34 Catalina had a fin. When we moved to,the hunter 38 it came with a wing. When the lake levels plummeted a few years ago there were many places that fins were no longer able to sale.
Pentwater had one year when the channel depth got below 5 feet due to shoaling. Arcadia was in serious trouble too. All these beautiful ports were becoming inaccessible and a fin wasn't going to help that. Thankfully the lakes have rebounded and are now closer to long term averages.

The differences we've found are:
Wing does give you better clearance over shallow bottoms. They tend to not be able to point as high. With a fin if you go aground you can sheet in, heel the boat and attempt to get off. With a wing you don't want to heel it because you bury the wing.

So I'd sum it this way, wing helps you avoid running aground but when you do it's harder to get off.

 

[Siamese]

I'm across the lake from you in Muskegon, where I've been sailing for a few decades. Current boat is a Catalina 28 with the Universal M25XP. Considering the boats on either side of my slip are a Catalina 34 and a Catalina 36, and they have the same engine, you'd think I might be overpowered.

As others have already said, when you're forced to go directly into those steep Lake Michigan waves, you want some power. I wouldn't give up a single HP that I currently have.

All the boats you've mentioned are nice boats for the great lakes, provided they're in good condition (and have enough HP). I remember when I went from 26 footer to a 31. Much nicer traveling from port to port. Our needs changed a little, and now we're happy with our Catalina 28.

We have the wing keel, drawing 4'3". We seldom feel compromised, and occasionally benefit. A few years ago the approach to one of our favorite ports didn't get the dredging it needed and it was dicey getting in and out. One of our dock neighbors lost his rudder there. Not us. Which isn't to say I'd pass on a boat that used 6 feet of water, just that for how we sail it's not a determining factor when we choose a boat.

Good luck to you, and don't forget to visit Muskegon.

 

[NotCook]

Lake Michgan is not your typical lake.

You got that right! Same can be said for all the Great Lakes. We've seen 22' waves on Lake Erie. Just because these bodies of water are landlocked "lakes", don't confuse them with the typical reservoirs or ponds.

 

[Apex]

another Muskegon sailor, with O'DAY 28 and 8hp single cylinder yanmar. hp combines with proper and pitch, so looking at engine alone may not be adequate. Moving to 28 and up is a big comfort change

 

[Jackdaw]

The 'anchor effect' of winglets?
The difference between a few HP of aux power?
The effect of Lake Michigan chop?

Can I suggest you are over-thinking this, and starting to enter analysis paralisys?

Find a boat you like. Buy it. No boat is perfect. You will always be making up for some shortcoming; it's the nature of beast.

 

[Kings Gambit]

Thanks to all for the comments. Going beyond 32 is not an option. Lake Michigan can kick up some ugly waves and while most of my sailing is daysailing, I do cruise around the lake for 1-2 weeks each summer and plan to do even more in the next 15-20 years. I've been bogged down motoring into weather on Lake Michigan with inadequate power on the O'Day 25 and it's a slog. The Islander engine would be fine 95% of the time. It's that 5% that concerns me. Quadrille38's comments are well taken. I would probably be comfortable as long as I had at least met the 1hp/500 lb rule of thumb. The Newport is 8500 lbs so 18 hp exceeds that.

On the Newport, I would be interested in other opinions on the wing keel, and also on whether there are quality issues on the Newport. It's a freshwater boat that looks like it has been cared for very well. There are other boats to look at, but I've seen this one and I like what I've seen so far.

Dave
s/v Lagniappe
O'Day 25

The diesels installed during the building era of the boats you mentioned were not for the purpose of powering though steep wind chop or seas. The generally higher HP diesels came along with the rise of beamy, "condo-esque" models. The diesels in the older boats are there to get the boat from the slip out to the sailing area, and reverse, or to power the boat along at near hull speed in light air or in windless conditions. That's why sailboats are classified as having "auxiliary power." So, at 13 hp, the Islander is not under powered to do that job; the one it was intended to do. My 1980 P-30 had an 11 hp Universal and I sailed the boat for many yr in both FL and CA, but it would not make much way against strong wind and steep wind chop on diesel power. Sailing habitats have changed. Some folks would now rather hunker up behind a spray dodger, turn on the autohelm, and let a relatively high HP diesel power them to the upwind destination in relatively short time instead of beating to it. If you want that, then look at a Catalina 320 or similar model.