45DS mainsail furling

Ralph Johnstone · Jul 8, 2022

seanmadian said:
Does this sound right to anyone/everyone?

Sounds wrong to me.

Our Selden in mast furling always runs free. Under all conditions, particularly when reefing, the circular furling line is held in position by two rope clutches, one on each side of the loop:

The line is pulled tight in the clutch and holds it in position for all wind forces.

If you don't have the rope clutch, you're not set up for in mast furling.

sail sfbay · Jul 8, 2022

seanmadian........what we do is after the mainsail is unfurled have someone go to the mast and move it to the rachet position. We do not wait until we want to reef to do that. The racket position mitigates the risk of the mainsail unfurling in high winds when you are trying to reef OR furling the sail in, espeacially in high wind.

Having said that, you can keep is the free position and furl it in.

Always move the mast winch to the rachet position and tension and cleat off (in the clutch) the outhaul and furling lines after the boat is docked and before you leave the boat to mitigate the risk of the mainsail inadvertently unfurling in high wind conditions when you are not there.

MFD · Jul 8, 2022

I agree on using that ratchet. It is a huge safety feature if you are partially reefed in heavy weather.

I recall somebody posting (can't remember if it was here) some pics of how they rigged up a little line led aft that pulled the knob back and moved it to the 'free' position, then a tug and releasing the line - a bungie small bungie cord would put it back to 'locked', or maybe it was the other way around. One of those low priority boat projects for me though.

In light air - yeah, its safer going forward but that is also not when you truly need that ratchet engaged anyway.

I always lock it no matter what wind conditions. If we need to reef, we know the sail is going in and not going back out. Usually in those kinds of conditions there is enough pressure on the sail so there is very little chance of getting a fold when rolling it up, which would be the only case (except when shaking a reef) one might need to set it to 'free' again?

I actually wish my jib furler had the same feature. I have seen a couple furling lines get chafe from bad fair leading and sustained use in bad weather at particular reef points. Again exactly the kind of time when you do not want the whole sail rolling out!

Ralph Johnstone · Jul 8, 2022

I guess it's just a weakness with me, but I've always assumed that the manufacturer probably knows a little more about the product he has designed and manufactured rather than the unusual routines which some people invent which often present hazards in rough sloppy weather.

The rope clutches (cam cleats or whatever) hold the continuous reefing line in the reefing winch without fail when snugged up. The two facing surfaces of the winch are designed to hold the line.

There is no way anyone goes up on deck on our boat when we've got reefed sails out in a howler on Georgia Straight.

I'll stick with their instructions which have served us very well for 24 years in all kinds of blows.

MFD · Jul 8, 2022

Fair enough.
I still believe that the ratchet/lock mode is a feature and not a bug.
It probably varies, like many things on an 80/20, or more probably a 95/5 use case about how we use our boats.

I do a lot of single handed and short handed (2) sailing. I would never want to leave myself or anybody else on deck in the middle of bad weather with a worry that the mainsail might 'entirely roll out' by accident when they are trying to reef for an upcoming squall.

For casual day sailing I am not quite as religious about locking the 'ratchet'. Except I still always do at least at the beginning of the day and train my crew to always do it. With a full crewed boat, just goofing around for an afternoon or a week in protected waters it isn't really a big deal. Meanwhile - just like not losing your fingers in winches or spinnakers halyards, there are reasons we do these things?

#1. Depending on crew knowledge, especially with 'pick up' crew, they may or may not know to keep tension on both sides of the endless line to maintain control of the fuller.
#2. Weather conditions change and boats bump around. A little slop there and the mast-side drum can come free, even if well maintained.
#3. Maintenance is an issue since Selden went with a plastic solution that seems to wear faster than the line itself for the little 'edges' on the drum. My hunch is that they figured that anybody that hadn't service drum replacement hadn't service the entire rig at all?
#4. Human error. We are all just human. There is a reason we have processes for extra safety procedures to double check that. I treat 'releasing the ratchet' as good point for discussion with the crew about conditions, what we are doing, where we are going, etc. (See cockpit resource management).
#5. When not just doing inland cruising - waters, weather, everything else can become unpredictable even with modern weather prediction. Add in the mixture of lines that are totally salt-soaked and extremely slippery - other use cases above become more common. As we all know, most accidents at sea start with a small chain of cascading events.

Ralph Johnstone · Jul 9, 2022

MFD said:
I do a lot of single handed and short handed (2) sailing. I would never want to leave myself or anybody else on deck in the middle of bad weather with a worry that the mainsail might 'entirely roll out' by accident when they are trying to reef for an upcoming squall.

I don't do a lot of single handing, but when the going gets tough and it's just me and miles of ocean, I am so happy when I can do everything from the cockpit. In particular, reefing both in and out.

MFD said:
Add in the mixture of lines that are totally salt-soaked and extremely slippery

Got to wonder what you use for lines (or if their covered in green moss) if yours become slippery when wet. Wet polyester grabs on to anything and jams into the reefing winch.

Do yourself a favour and examine your inmast furling a little closer and see why it's designed the way it is. The ratchet is ONLY for reefing by a crewmwmber at the mast. The reefing winch is for control from the cockpit.

Ralph Johnstone · Jul 9, 2022

seanmadian said:
I've wondered if we furled the main in the wrong direction (e.g., counterclockwise v clockwise) but reversing this only seems to make the situation worse.

CCW for sure.

flightlead404 · Jul 11, 2022

FWIW I also make sure the ratchet is engaged when I leave the boat.

Point was made for me when a neighboring boat had its main start to deploy in a strong blow a few months ago and no one was aboard.

buddy0 · Jul 11, 2022

I have not been able to keep the mainsail from slowly unfurling when there is a lot of pressure on the sail without setting the ratchet.
For this reason, I usually do "go forward and set the ratchet before its time to reef".
But this doesn't help when you are trying to raise the sails to a reefed position when its already a bit windy.
I have not found an answer for this, other than to go forward in rough conditions (clipped in) before you do the final tensioning with the outhaul.

I try to, and I think I do, keep good tension on the "in" side of the line when unfurling. I always unfurl by hand.
After I lock down both in and out, I tension the outhaul. This is what usually causes the sail to unfurl more.
It usually happens slowly
I've put marks on the sail so I can easily see it from the cockpit.
I have had it happen several times in sequence - tighten the outhaul, sail unfurls a bit, tighten the outhaul, sail unfurls a bit, ...

Has anyone else had this problem?

sail sfbay · Jul 11, 2022

buddyO.. ....you are doing everything right. However, I would look to replace your furlin / out line so I grips securely in the clutch assuming your clutch teeth are not worn.

Once you pull the sail out to the amount of sail you want in a reefed posture, set the mast winch to ratchet. Once the wind dies down and you want raise it set the winch to free to raise the sail the to ratchet. Now you are re That is what I do.

buddy0 · Jul 11, 2022

Thanks for the reply sail sfbay. Just one note, the rope clutches on the cabin top do not slip.
I am guessing that it slipping at the drum at the mast, but have not seen it so can't confirm.
Replacing the furling line might help.
Right now I am mainly wondering if this is common/expected and the ratchet is the solution or if I should be looking deeper.

Ralph Johnstone · Jul 11, 2022

buddy0 said:
After I lock down both in and out, I tension the outhaul.

buddy0 said:
Has anyone else had this problem?

You've got me. I know that the rachet on ours is always OFF in our in-mast Selden furling and does not let go. Does your continuous furling line sit snugly in the furling winch i.e. is it the correct diameter ? If too small in diameter, it will slip.

If it's old, moss covered, and badly worn, it will slowly let go. Make sure it's in decent condition. The reefing winch is DESIGNED to hold the reefing line and not let go. There's got to be a reason why yours is slipping.

buddy0 · Jul 11, 2022

Hi Ralph. Thanks for the info. Sounds like it is something that could, and should, be fixed. Glad I asked.

I'll look carefully at the drum and the line and also verify that it is the correct diameter.
The line seems pretty good to me, but it is probably original - 17 years old. I'll take a close look at the part of the line at the drum when the sail is reefed also - there may be a localized area causing a problem.

I am not at the boat, but will follow up when I have more info.

flightlead404 · Jul 11, 2022

buddy0 said:
Hi Ralph. Thanks for the info. Sounds like it is something that could, and should, be fixed. Glad I asked.

I'll look carefully at the drum and the line and also verify that it is the correct diameter.
The line seems pretty good to me, but it is probably original - 17 years old. I'll take a close look at the part of the line at the drum when the sail is reefed also - there may be a localized area causing a problem.

I am not at the boat, but will follow up when I have more info.

FWIW When I purchased my boat last year it had all original running rigging. I thought I'd be able to sail it a little bit while my new rigging was being put together.

Furling line parted with sail half out in 20+kts right in the Fort Pierce inlet washing machine

Fun times.

Its easy to splice a continuous line and line is cheap by the foot.

Ralph Johnstone · Jul 11, 2022

flightlead404 said:
Furling line parted with sail half out in 20+kts right in the Fort Pierce inlet washing machine

Quite often you pay extra for excitement like that

!

Ralph Johnstone · Jul 11, 2022

buddy0 said:
I'll take a close look at the part of the line at the drum when the sail is reefed also - there may be a localized area causing a problem.

Close off the rope or cam or whatever kind of cleats or clutches hold the reefing line secure and then see how difficult it is to turn the reefing winch with a winch handle.

Ralph Johnstone · Jul 14, 2022

I saw your post yesterday morning just before heading out to the boat. Figured it was about time I understood how and why my reefing winch was able to grip the furling line so tightly when others seemed to have problems with slippage.

This is the arrangement of the furling line in the cockpit:

The two red lines have been gripped together, tugged by hand and then both rope clutches slammed shut.

This is the arrangement at the mast:

The winch is unlocked and a winch handle has been inserted into the furling winch. CCW turning unfurls the sail. The winch handle is cranked CCW until it is ready to tear the RH section of the rope clutch off its mounting. The handle is then turned CW and again it is now ready to tear the LH section of the rope clutch off its mounting. Back and forth repeatedly and it jams every time. If you look inside the winch plates, the faces are covered with heavy radial protrusions which force the furling line towards the centre of the winch. It has to jam.

I notice that my 10 mm. furling line is about 5 to 6 years old and showing wear but is still solid and fits snugly in the reefing winch.

seanmadian said:
* Lock the circular furling line on the left cam cleat
* Release the circular furling line right (starboard) cam cleat (the one that furls the main)
* Place three wraps of the right circular furling line around the adjacent winch but do not tension the line
* Unfurl the main using the outhaul to the desired position
* Tension the circular furling line on the right via the winch when the main reaches the desired position thereby preventing further deployment of the main
* When safe, send the crew forward to move the pin from open/free to closed/locked on the furling hardware on the mast (presuming we are not likely to unfurl further).

Sorry, but I see no need in going through all this rigamaroll. It's just not required. Looks like you're going to be the only one on board who knows (and remembers) how to furl the main.

seanmadian said:
The 45DS owners manual doesn't address this.

Probably because it's so simple they figured it's not worth mentioning.

45DS mainsail furling

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