423 Hull to Grid Liner Seperation

[MuddyPaws]

Hello everyone !! Firstly, thanks to all of you that work to put together and run this great site.
I'm new to this forum and I'm currently looking very seriously at the purchase of a 2004 B-423 that is for sale in the Great Lakes region. Any knowledgeable help would be much appreciated. She is a 1 owner fresh water only boat with the standard new boat fit-out. The boat is basically all factory original with an added quality canvas system and has the Yanmar with 750hrs showing, crisp furling sails with an additional 110 genoa and a cruising chute.
My biggest concern thus far with the boat is some separation of the hull liner grid pan to the hull itself and have looked through several sites regarding this issue without any definite conclusions. I previously owned a 2000 B-361 with the same sort of Hull and Liner construction that showed little of this kind of cracking along the joints where the grid liner is bonded to the hull and have been told it's "cosmetic" more than structural in nature. This boat has only seen Great Lake sailing (which can get pretty rough) but has not seen any major weather.
I'm attaching a couple pics I took of my concern and would much appreciate any hearing others experience with this.
Thanks !

 

[gleason99]

yes i have seen this before on several Beneteaus, although this is more than i have on my 5 year old Beneteau 37 and we have even hit rocks! my first thoguhts are the boat could have hit the bottom hard and the hull flexed enough to flex the liner, or maybe there was water in the bilge and it froze during the winter which i would believe is the more likely scenerio. Are there any large cracks around the machine screws that hold the keel in place? Particularly the front keel bolts and the aft ones as this would indicate a hard grounding. i would call around and aska couple of Marine Surveyors in your area what they think of your pictures.

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

Who told you it "is only cosmetic"?

The liner in these boats is definitely structural intended to stiffen the overall hull integrity.

 

[MuddyPaws]

Thanks for the reply gleason99.
I was also thinking that the freeze-thaw cycle of winters here may have expanded any cracks along the seam and made them more noticeable. If the bilge was not entirely dry before freezing that could cause those cracks to widen. The keel bolts are rust and damage free with only some very minor spider cracks seen around the edge of two of the washers further back and look like they are from tightening and compression. The most suspect forward bolts look perfect. There is the typical very small smile crack at the forward point of the keel to hull joint on the outside and the keel itself shows no signs of impact.
Naturally, my offer will include a survey clause but want to go no further with this one if this is a sign of a needed major repair or is of any structural consequence. My feeling is that it's not serious but will walk away NOW if it seems otherwise!

 

[MuddyPaws]

Hi Don.
The local Beneteau Dealer (not the listing broker and with regards to another boat) told me they sometimes crack along the edge because there is often a void that is filled with gelcoat then painted and the gelcoat is quite hard compared to the mastic used to do the actual bonding. They crack, but not all the way through and under the flange. BS???

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

Hi Don.
The local Beneteau Dealer (not the listing broker and with regards to another boat) told me they sometimes crack along the edge because there is often a void that is filled with gelcoat then painted and the gelcoat is quite hard compared to the mastic used to do the actual bonding. They crack, but not all the way through and under the flange. BS???

I don't know if that is BS but I have an opinion...

The best thing you can do is obtain a survey. Not just any survey or surveyor but one who can properly assess this issue. As I suspect you know, there are lots of surveyors and many good ones but you need someone who has the expertise to do more than hit the hull with a hammer.
It might require some intrusive inspection of the hull /liner bond which is beyond the usual inspection so it might be useful and especially revealing to ask the current owner for permission to do so.

 

[Captn TJ]

Hi Don. The local Beneteau Dealer (not the listing broker and with regards to another boat) told me they sometimes crack along the edge because there is often a void that is filled with gelcoat then painted and the gelcoat is quite hard compared to the mastic used to do the actual bonding. They crack, but not all the way through and under the flange. BS???

A couple of comments: I would have a detailed structural survey done as I have not encountered this on my current Beneteau 423 or my previous Beneteau's - FYI I've owned B boats for about 30 years. We sail the Great Lakes extensively and while we've been in REALLY bad weather nothing that would come close to separating the grid from the hull. Additionally while there have been some early production issues (2003-2004 range) this is the first time I've heard of it on a 423.

You might want to get on the 423 yahoo group site for more feedback. This is a very active group of around 500 members along with lots of archived data on the boat.

This is an awesome boat and given everything comes out well in the survey you'll be very happy with it

PM me if you want 'things' to look for during the survey

 

[William9955]

So what happened in the end? Did you buy the boat?

 

[MuddyPaws]

So what happened in the end? Did you buy the boat?

A follow up .......
In the end and for a couple reasons, I passed on this boat.
After a further and very close look at the extent of the cracking and a little probing with a knife and awl, I found a couple spots where the grid separation was confirmed, leaving all the other cracking along the join lines as suspect. For me, that immediately translates into requiring a substantial inspection and repair. When the issue was pressed, the broker came up with a marina repair receipt from a boatyard that was put through insurance as a claim from back when the boat was 2 yrs old. It appeared to me that repair must have only address some minor exterior work as it included hauling out/in and was under 8G's in labor and materials without a description of the work performed ..... in my experience, that doesn't buy you much repair work on an almost new boat in a yard in Canada during high season. They admitted the owner told them the boat was grounded on rocks but couldn't imagine that it wasn't repaired properly at the time.
Some other issues then came to light regarding the brokers dishonesty toward me during negotiations that finally led me to walk away disappointed, but if a lifetime of boating has taught me one thing, its that, "there's always another boat"
Still looking and a little smarter ...........

 

[Captn TJ]

Good decision! There was a jeanneau 52 in our harbor that had run aground causing the bulkheads to separate from the hull (different construction with tabbed in bulkheads vs pan). The insurance co paid 250k to get it repaired.