I am considering a 37c purchase and am looking for feedback on the pro. and cons. of the two draft options. I have sailed on a 33 more then once and felt it was a little tender. I don’t want a tender boat and I want it to point. Who has what and what have you found with its performance? Thanks - Garth
- Status
Simple
A deep keel will out point and be a litte stiffer than a shoal keel. The deep has more weight lower. Walking the docks on our marina we have a deep draft 28.5 friend has a shoal draft 28.5 same boat. I can tell the difference just in getting on his boat at the dock. His boat rolls allot more than mine and I feel that my boat does not roll much at all. Cliff 28.5 "Red Dog"
A deep keel will out point and be a litte stiffer than a shoal keel. The deep has more weight lower. Walking the docks on our marina we have a deep draft 28.5 friend has a shoal draft 28.5 same boat. I can tell the difference just in getting on his boat at the dock. His boat rolls allot more than mine and I feel that my boat does not roll much at all. Cliff 28.5 "Red Dog"
Shallow draft is for shallow water
if you aren't going to need to be in shallow water, then don't get the shallow draft. I have the 37C 5 foot version Scott
if you aren't going to need to be in shallow water, then don't get the shallow draft. I have the 37C 5 foot version Scott
My shoal draft.
Unless you are racing I doubt you would notice the difference. The shoal H37C has an additional 300# in the keel(7150 vs. 6850). So I also do not think you would experience what Cliff saw on an H28.5. After all we are talking about a displ. over 18000#. And tender she ain't. I start thinking about a reef at around 22 knots and then only to counter weatherhelm. At 25 knots I might sail with main and staysail, still making 7+ VOG. The rudder depth is the same as the shoal draft keel. Will a deep draft outpoint? Definitely. But we are talking two or three degrees maybe. For Lake Erie the shoal draft is ideal. If there is a choice and you don't go for snug anchorages then the deep draft is the obvious choice. Uses more paint though.
Unless you are racing I doubt you would notice the difference. The shoal H37C has an additional 300# in the keel(7150 vs. 6850). So I also do not think you would experience what Cliff saw on an H28.5. After all we are talking about a displ. over 18000#. And tender she ain't. I start thinking about a reef at around 22 knots and then only to counter weatherhelm. At 25 knots I might sail with main and staysail, still making 7+ VOG. The rudder depth is the same as the shoal draft keel. Will a deep draft outpoint? Definitely. But we are talking two or three degrees maybe. For Lake Erie the shoal draft is ideal. If there is a choice and you don't go for snug anchorages then the deep draft is the obvious choice. Uses more paint though.
I agree with Ed...
...on the point about heavy displacement outweighing (pun intended) most everything else. Even with my shoal keel, when the wind starts blowing 10-20 she digs down and drives forward before heeling much...it always surprises me. If you gunkhole more than race, the shoal draft would be the choice.
...on the point about heavy displacement outweighing (pun intended) most everything else. Even with my shoal keel, when the wind starts blowing 10-20 she digs down and drives forward before heeling much...it always surprises me. If you gunkhole more than race, the shoal draft would be the choice.
Racing????
I tend to get a little steamed when sailor's think just because the do not race they don't need a boat that performs. Common answer to allot of questions is "Well I don't race so who care's" One thing to always consider before anything is where a person sail's. Deep water or shallow water? A deep draft boat verses the same design shallow draft boat is a bigger deal then some might think. On a long voyage sailing to weather 4 or 5 degree's less of pointing can be a huge thing. Not to mention lee way caused by the shallower draft boat. It can mean hours or days longer on the water then the same deep draft boat. I am a racer and we have won races over other boats baised just on the fact we can out point them. It is as simple as we are sailing allot less distance. Now for the cruiser you think "Hey that's ok I love the time on the water". But we all sail to some kind of time schedule, Now if your sailing to weather in really crappy weather and you need to for us Sail to Buffalo. Now I could make it in one tack and be ther say 2 1/2 day's. Cold windy raining you know the type of days and all my wife can think about is that hot shower in the marina "When" we get ther. Now based just on the keel it would be possible that we could get ther a day or so sooner than the shoal keel boat. It all comes down to where you sail and what your needs are we are really only talking a foot difference between the 2 keel's so the gunkholing would not be all that different with just a foot difference. Not to mention the deep keel boat would have to be a little stiffer more weight lower. Cliff Hunter 28.5 "Red Dog"
I tend to get a little steamed when sailor's think just because the do not race they don't need a boat that performs. Common answer to allot of questions is "Well I don't race so who care's" One thing to always consider before anything is where a person sail's. Deep water or shallow water? A deep draft boat verses the same design shallow draft boat is a bigger deal then some might think. On a long voyage sailing to weather 4 or 5 degree's less of pointing can be a huge thing. Not to mention lee way caused by the shallower draft boat. It can mean hours or days longer on the water then the same deep draft boat. I am a racer and we have won races over other boats baised just on the fact we can out point them. It is as simple as we are sailing allot less distance. Now for the cruiser you think "Hey that's ok I love the time on the water". But we all sail to some kind of time schedule, Now if your sailing to weather in really crappy weather and you need to for us Sail to Buffalo. Now I could make it in one tack and be ther say 2 1/2 day's. Cold windy raining you know the type of days and all my wife can think about is that hot shower in the marina "When" we get ther. Now based just on the keel it would be possible that we could get ther a day or so sooner than the shoal keel boat. It all comes down to where you sail and what your needs are we are really only talking a foot difference between the 2 keel's so the gunkholing would not be all that different with just a foot difference. Not to mention the deep keel boat would have to be a little stiffer more weight lower. Cliff Hunter 28.5 "Red Dog"
Performance to weather
That's the big difference. And it has nothing to do with the ballast - the designers have worked out the 300 extra pounds to make that a wash. The big difference is a longer, more efficient wing working under water to reduce leeway. 4 to 5 degrees is probably right. For us, cruising means _not_ having a schedule that makes us sail dead into the wind. So most of our legs are reaches, or motoring if there is little or no wind. But we have had a few times when 5 to 10 degrees of improved pointing would have made for a lot nicer leg crossing the lake. (Last summer, for instance on the way from Erie to Port Stanley, we "missed" Port Stanley by only 12 miles! Slogging into the wind is not the strength of our shoal draft h27. But I do think shoal draft makes us a little faster when the wind is abaft the beam. The wing is mostly drag at that point. David Lady Lillie
That's the big difference. And it has nothing to do with the ballast - the designers have worked out the 300 extra pounds to make that a wash. The big difference is a longer, more efficient wing working under water to reduce leeway. 4 to 5 degrees is probably right. For us, cruising means _not_ having a schedule that makes us sail dead into the wind. So most of our legs are reaches, or motoring if there is little or no wind. But we have had a few times when 5 to 10 degrees of improved pointing would have made for a lot nicer leg crossing the lake. (Last summer, for instance on the way from Erie to Port Stanley, we "missed" Port Stanley by only 12 miles! Slogging into the wind is not the strength of our shoal draft h27. But I do think shoal draft makes us a little faster when the wind is abaft the beam. The wing is mostly drag at that point. David Lady Lillie
Someone said
"Real men don't sail to weather" but it escapes me now who. As a cruiser (unless you are on a very tight schedule, in which case the cast iron genny works best) i prefer to sail a more leasurely course and try to keep the boat upright. A bit longer, Maybe, happier...definately. easier on me and the wife GUARANTEED!!! That's what makes horse races .... chet p
"Real men don't sail to weather" but it escapes me now who. As a cruiser (unless you are on a very tight schedule, in which case the cast iron genny works best) i prefer to sail a more leasurely course and try to keep the boat upright. A bit longer, Maybe, happier...definately. easier on me and the wife GUARANTEED!!! That's what makes horse races .... chet p
After market Wing
You all have given me great feed back. Thanks a lot! Have any of you herd of adding a winged portion to the keel on the 4' to help with pointing. I race on a C&C 40 that had a foot cut off (because of a deep draft) and wings added to compensate. It points GREAT. What do you think? Garth
You all have given me great feed back. Thanks a lot! Have any of you herd of adding a winged portion to the keel on the 4' to help with pointing. I race on a C&C 40 that had a foot cut off (because of a deep draft) and wings added to compensate. It points GREAT. What do you think? Garth
Maybe????
Looking at an a PHRF book from 94, the Hunter 37 Cutter rates a 168 a Hunter 37 Legend with a wing keel rates a 108. That's 60 seconds a mile. That is a monster difference in boat speed for boats of the same length. Granted they are 2 different design's, but the number is for the same place Cheasapeake Bay. Doing a little looking in the PHRF book the Cherubini design boats tend to have some bad numbers indacating they are slower boats then the other Hunter boats. (Sorry Cherubini Sailor's) Plus adding the wings to the boat will then change it's PHRF number. PHRF will look at it as you are looking for a speed advantage and will penelize you for it. My guess and it is a guess would be you might add the wings spend a chunk of $$ and might not see any advantage. On the C & C 40 it has enough wetted surface area or Keel Surface area that the 12" x 16" area they cut off might not have made much of a difference. To get a true idea would be to have a Yacht Designer take a look at it and run some numbers to see how it will work. But this will also add to the cost of the whole project. We race against a Cherubini Design 27 on Lake Erie. It is a mast head rig and he has been successful with his racing. For racing against him at the finish if we can see him and he is a speck on the Horizen he might have us if not we have a chance. He sail's his boat well and he literly leap frogs over the entire fleet to get a good finish. I really really hate that, Sucks to get beat by a guy we never even saw. He is a great sailor and his boat is in great shape and sail's well. You might want to do a search on Google type in Hunter 37 Cutter and see what comes up. I have been successful doing this with my 28.5 and have been able to find allot of race results and have tracked down some of the owners to see how well they are doing and what they are doing. But my guess would be that the 37 Cutter is a great boat big comfertable really great in a blow but it might not be much of a racer and you could drop allot of $$ in it and not be happy with the results. Again I meant no disrespect to any of the Cheribini sailor's. Cliff Hunter 28.5 "Red Dog"
Looking at an a PHRF book from 94, the Hunter 37 Cutter rates a 168 a Hunter 37 Legend with a wing keel rates a 108. That's 60 seconds a mile. That is a monster difference in boat speed for boats of the same length. Granted they are 2 different design's, but the number is for the same place Cheasapeake Bay. Doing a little looking in the PHRF book the Cherubini design boats tend to have some bad numbers indacating they are slower boats then the other Hunter boats. (Sorry Cherubini Sailor's) Plus adding the wings to the boat will then change it's PHRF number. PHRF will look at it as you are looking for a speed advantage and will penelize you for it. My guess and it is a guess would be you might add the wings spend a chunk of $$ and might not see any advantage. On the C & C 40 it has enough wetted surface area or Keel Surface area that the 12" x 16" area they cut off might not have made much of a difference. To get a true idea would be to have a Yacht Designer take a look at it and run some numbers to see how it will work. But this will also add to the cost of the whole project. We race against a Cherubini Design 27 on Lake Erie. It is a mast head rig and he has been successful with his racing. For racing against him at the finish if we can see him and he is a speck on the Horizen he might have us if not we have a chance. He sail's his boat well and he literly leap frogs over the entire fleet to get a good finish. I really really hate that, Sucks to get beat by a guy we never even saw. He is a great sailor and his boat is in great shape and sail's well. You might want to do a search on Google type in Hunter 37 Cutter and see what comes up. I have been successful doing this with my 28.5 and have been able to find allot of race results and have tracked down some of the owners to see how well they are doing and what they are doing. But my guess would be that the 37 Cutter is a great boat big comfertable really great in a blow but it might not be much of a racer and you could drop allot of $$ in it and not be happy with the results. Again I meant no disrespect to any of the Cheribini sailor's. Cliff Hunter 28.5 "Red Dog"
The 37.5 is much faster than the 37C
I have a 37C with the 4 foot keel. While very stable, I have a hard time getting it to point any higher than about 45 degrees. When sailed next to my slip neighbor's 37.5, he is about 1.5 knots faster and he can point about 10 degrees higher with the wing keel. Of course he does have about 2 feet extra on the waterline and about a ton lighter.
I have a 37C with the 4 foot keel. While very stable, I have a hard time getting it to point any higher than about 45 degrees. When sailed next to my slip neighbor's 37.5, he is about 1.5 knots faster and he can point about 10 degrees higher with the wing keel. Of course he does have about 2 feet extra on the waterline and about a ton lighter.
Sails Brian?
Just wondering about the condition of your sails Brian? I think my shoal draft H37C does better than that. Not that it would stay with a 37.5 but certainly not 1.5 knots slower.
Just wondering about the condition of your sails Brian? I think my shoal draft H37C does better than that. Not that it would stay with a 37.5 but certainly not 1.5 knots slower.
2 year old North sails
Ed, my sails are all new North sails. The main is partially battened and I have a 110 up front. But like I said, I think my speed has a lot to do with the weight of my 37C. It really needs to go on a diet.
Ed, my sails are all new North sails. The main is partially battened and I have a 110 up front. But like I said, I think my speed has a lot to do with the weight of my 37C. It really needs to go on a diet.
- Status