340 - adding a winch or cam cleat for mainsheet?

[Wallrat]

I'll start with admitting that this is my first real boat having only owned small multihulls prior to this one. I'm still learning the boat and one of the biggest things that stands out is that I'm forced to either hold the main sheet, or lock it in the clutch - requiring a trip forward to release the clutch every time I change my heading. My model doesn't have the optional spinnaker winches in the cockpit so taking a wrap or 2 around the starboard winch to add friction causes issues when on a port tack as I normally leave the jib sheet wrapped around the winch. Seems to me that a cam cleat added next to the existing clutches, or adding another winch to the starboard spinnaker winch location would solve my issue. Few questions though:

Has anyone done either method that can provide advice/recommendations?

If a cam cleat, is the whole area around the clutches reinforced enough that I could add it there? Or do I need to add a backing plate to distribute the load?

If I go the winch route, what size would you suggest? I'd like to keep it as cheap as possible but also don't want to overload an undersized winch. The optional spinnaker winch supplied by Hunter calls for a Lewmar CST30. But at $800 I'd rather just put up with using the clutch.

 

[rardiH36]

I don't have a 340, but two days on after your post and no replies, I thought anyway to convey my positive experience with a main sheet cam cleat modification.

From pic's and the owner's manual, the 340 has end-boom main sheet block and tackle attached to the arch. The main sheet control line runs forward through the boom to the gooseneck, down to the mast base, then via a deck organizer and the clutch leads back to the cabin top winch area next to the companionway.

Aside from your block and tackle on arch, and mine being located mid-boom, our main sheet routings are otherwise pretty much the same. (But I do have a main sheet dedicated winch on the cabin top.)

Per the attached pictures of my set-up, yes a cam cleat is an alternative. (Note of explanation about the first picture. I took it many years ago after I installed the cleat and moved the clutch and winch to get a better lead orientation than was originally stock. But the picture was snapped before I painted over the work to make "pretty" again. Anyway the before painting picture does serve to show the original location of the winch and clutch and a couple of other routing blocks installed by PO's ... whose purpose I could never figure out! Also since the picture was taken, I have replaced the old Spinlock clutch with a more modern type double clutch. Through the second clutch slot, I have routed my Cunningham control.)

With the mod, I can go either hand sheeting or with the winch if I want more tension. 99% of the time, I don't bother with the winch because pulling straight back on the sheet from behind the wheel affords great natural leverage = enough tension for normal recreational sailing. So the rope clutch stays open. If I want to sheet close to the center-line when the wind is blowing, I pinch into the wind a bit until the sail and boom luff and then pull. If I want to use the winch, then I close the rope clutch, remove the sheet from the cam cleat, wrap it around the winch, tension, unwind the sheet from the winch, put it back into the cam cleat and lead the line back to the helm. Then try to remember to open the clutch again so I can quickly release the main sheet from behind the wheel.

Snapping the sheet up and out of the the cam cleat when under high wind tension can take a few aggressive tries. (But I think a saw recently that there is a special type of cam cleat that is designed for easy release when under load.. don't remember the brand however.)

To be able to place/remove the sheet into/from the cam-cleat from your several feet away location behind the wheel, the cleat's location is important. 1) So you have a "down" angle to draw the line into the cleat's jaws, the cleat needs to be placed close to where the cabin top drops off to the vertical forward bulkhead of your cockpit area. 2) The cleat needs to be positioned to a achieve a a straight line between the clutch and your favored control position behind the wheel and so that pulling on it doesn't say route directly through your compass on your binnacle! For my boat, made this alignment so the straight pull on the sheet is achieved just to the port side of my wheel. And 3) You shouldn't have too much left or right "break angle" as the sheet comes out of the clutch since angle of more than just a few degrees would add noticeable friction (for hand tensioning anyway).

Finally in the pic of my pedestal, note the eye-bolt that I mounted on the pedestal guard. I flop my sheet over this so the sheet is always at hand.

As to your query about the area being reinforced in the area, other 340 owners or Hunter is your source. My boat (Hunter 36 1980) has an aluminum plate under in the entire area. So for me it was just drill and tap. But construction methods 20 years later may be very different. Of course you could drill small diameter hole (say 1/8") where you might decide to mount a cam cleat. After about 1/4" of so of going through fiberglass, you would either quickly punch through or start seeing aluminum shavings coming up.

 

[Wallrat]

Thanks for the reply. It also looks like you have an 8:1 purchase whereas I only have the stock 3:1. I'm thinking that anything I do should probably start there and then work its way back. Good tips, and I'll see if I can figure out what sort of mounting plate I have going.

 

[rardiH36]

... It also looks like you have an 8:1 purchase whereas I only have the stock 3:1.

Thanks:

Well not quite 8:1 since the forward most lead doesn't add.

Your boat has block and tackle near the end of the boom? I don't know how much that effects, but I would expect a 3:1 end boom wouldn't be much different than say a 5:1 or 6:1 on a mid boom basis.

Anyway, see your point. With the low purchase, I would think that a winch almost certainly is necessary in any sort of a wind condition at all.

I just looked at page 42 of the 340 owners manual that has been uploaded to this site. If that's your arrangement, that diagram shows 2:1? My boat originally had 4:1. I decided to convert to the 7:1 I have now. (The decision was made easy when I fortunately stumbled on a set of good condition second hand Garhaurer blocks priced at a nautical flea market.)

Maybe this also is an option for you instead of buying and installing a dedicated main sheet winch? Referring again to page 42 of the OM, swap out the single block that is shown mounted on the arch instead with a single block with becket. That will at least increase the 2:1 purchase to 3:1. Or a fiddle with becket on the arch and a double at the boom end will acheive 5:1. This assumes that you have enough room between the arch and the boom to allow for the longer profiles of becket blocks.

Garhaurer products almost always get great reviews from owners and the prices are reasonable ... even when new!

 

[Wallrat]

Ah right. Was thinking the distance between the cabin roof and the 1st block wasn't constant. Anyway I was thinking of adding a double block at the boom and a double + becket at the arch for 5:1.

 

[rardiH36]

Hi again:

An omission (more accurately an error) with my last post was not to initially realize that depending on where and how much additional purchase is added, each attach point on the boom will have greater/different loads on it than the stock configuration.

Again referring to diagram 42 from the owner's manual, which shows a 2:1, the load between the arch (traveler block) and each of the two boom blocks would be more-or-less the same. (Although since the angle of in/out leads on the forward block is 90 degrees (or a bit less) the block is experiencing considerably LESS load than if the lines were angling the same at 180 degrees at block.) So as per OEM, say a 100 lb pull is put on the main sheet at the cockpit, each of the two bloom blocks will "feel" more-or-less the same stress. i.e. 50/50.

But if a fiddle block with becket on the arch was paired with a double at the boom end before routing through the single on the forward boom attach point, this boom end portion would now experience a 4:1 load. Say 100lbs was pulled from the cockpit on the main sheet, the end boom attach point would experience 400 lbs between it and the arch block. Whereas, the forward block's boom attach point (not modified from OEM considering that the angle is much less than 180 degrees) it would see (say) 70 lbs of load.

Could be OK, but by the owner's manual drawings, it looks like the "bail" in this case is a slide in a track under the boom. My concern is that 80% of the load on the aft block's attach point might be too much for this type of design. I've got small pad-eye on the bottom of my boom that Hunter originally planned would be for the (to be installed by original owner) boom vang attach point. When deciding to add a boom vang to my boat, I looked at this fitting suspiciously and instead drilled for a hanging normal bail for my boom vang. A year or two later, I read a post by another owner of my Kenyon boom type that the Hunter installed boom vang boom attachment fitting had ripped out.

Upshot: You have lots of options to improve your mainsheet system. But notwithstanding this discussion, do your own research to verify your decisions. Talk to other owners if there is a 340 specific website. Talk to Hunter. Ask an experienced rigger to evaluate. Post on the Ask-All-Sailor's subforum of this excellent website for their experiences.

 

[Wallrat]

I'll be at the boat tomorrow and will snap a picture of the boom arrangement. There are several bails available on the boom which may be adequate for sharing the load. However you're correct in that the arch only has a single traveler car as an attachment point. I did notice that the current blocks have a max working load of 1,800 lbs, which seemed excessive to me but figure this is to withstand shock loads from an uncontrolled jibe.

 

[Wallrat]

Typed that last one in a hurry...

The bails are as you describe: riveted into a slot on the underside of the boom. There are however, a couple extras that are not in use. I could replace the single on the arch with a triple, moving the single to one bail on the boom, and add a new single with becket to a different bail on the boom which would give me 6:1 and 2 primary load points on the end of the boom. Likely this description will make more sense when I have a photo.

 

[Wallrat]

Okie here's an image from the starboard side. As you can see I have 4 bails that I could make use of.

 

[H30Gary]

Walrat -
My take on this is a little different. To first order at least, increasing the amount of mainsheet purchase will not increase the load on the boom, it will reduce the tension in the mainsheet required to achieve that load. The load is determined by the force of the wind on the mainsail, which for a given wind strength doesn't change regardless of mainsail purchase. So lets say the main was pulling the end of boom up with a force of say 200 lb. To counteract this, the block on the end of the boom would have to pull down with a force of 200 lb (assumes no boom vang). If the mainsheet was rigged 2:1 the tension in the sheet would be 100 lb and with 5:1 the tension would be 40 lbs. The load on the boom block doesn't change, the sheet tension does.

Now in practice you could put more tension on the leech with higher purchase, so the load could go up some, but it would not go up 2-1/2 times, probably, 10% or 20% or 30%. So, that being said, I think you could safely increase to say 5:1 purchase and not overload the boom. Then you can probably get by with a cam cleat and no winch.

I do have a concern about the attachment of the mainsheet block to the end of the boom. The photo shows the block attached to one of several fittings pop riveted into a slot in the bottom of the boom. (You call them bails, but I think they are more correctly termed eye straps; bails are actually bigger U-shaped fittings that fasten to the sides of the boom). Do the eye straps slide in the track with the pop rivets keeping the straps from moving fore and aft, or are the pop rivets taking the full tension load of the straps? If it is the latter, that is not a good design. (Pop rivets are not good in tension.) If you can get access to the inside of the boom, I would thru-bolt those fittings. If you don't have access, I would consider switching to true bails, which can be thru-bolted without having access to the inside of the boom (preferred method), or could be pop-riveted to the sides of the boom, with the pop rivets now in shear (less desirable).

In any case, with the fix of the attachment points, you should be good to go with more purchase and a cam cleat. My guess is there is aluminum in the cabin top area to drill and tap into, but I don't know this for sure.

Gary

 

[Ed Caldwell]

Okie here's an image from the starboard side. As you can see I have 4 bails that I could make use of.

Wallrat, what year is your 340 - 98 or 99? In your picture the boom is so low I can't tell exactly how the blocks are set up but I don't think yours looks like mine (1999 with Selden spars). I never use the winch on the mainsheet the way mine is rigged, even in the 25-30 kt range- there's plenty of mechanical advantage. Also I use my traveler (on the 1999, the lines are run inside the arch to cleats above the speakers) to adjust the angle of attack out to its limit, which is about a beam reach, only beyond that do I even touch the mainsheet so I've not felt the need to change the way its cleated off. I'll try to remember and take a picture the next time I'm at the boat to compare.

 

[Ed Caldwell]

Found a picture

I have three blocks, two shown and one is under the sail cover. The sheet is attached under the upper block, runs to lower, back to upper, back to lower, then to the block attached under the sail cover, then into the boom. I think that means 4:1 advantage?

 

[Scotty C-M]

Sounds like 3:1 to me. (The last block you mentioned changes the direction 90*, not 180*) Good point to look at the eye straps. If they are in slots, they can take higher loads, if they are riveted on, they represent a weak spot from a design point of view.

I sail on a Catalina400, and it has a winch on the cabin top that I use for halyards and the main sheet. It works very well for me, although to change the main sheet I do have to leave the wheel (I use the auto pilot) and go to the front of the cockpit. when I have crew, of course, that is not an issue. This system works fine for me.

 

[Wallrat]

I'll have to look at the boom again to be certain but I believe the eye straps are slid into a track, and then pop rivets are primarily used to keep them from sliding around in the track. As far as I'm aware, this is the stock mainsheet configuration on this boat (a 1997 by the way) - at least it appears so based on the manual and another 340 in my harbor. I'll verify the next time I'm out and grab a better picture while I'm at it.

I also figured out the trick of using the traveler to adjust the sail the last time I was out, and while it worked for all but major course changes, I feel that if there's something on a boat that functions inefficiently, then fix it.

Good point on the boom load being constant. Although if I have multiple attachment points that aren't in use, why not spread the load?

 

[Ed Caldwell]

Interesting to learn the details of these boats... Between the 97-98 models and the 99, Hunter changed the mast/boom from Z-spar (I think) to Selden, someone decided to add the third block to the main sheet rigging (I checked my owner's manual and it shows your arrangement but apparently only some pages were updated for the Selden spars). I also have bails on the bottom of the boom, the ones shown in your picture are marked as where the 1st and 2nd reefs attach to the boom.

 

[rardiH36]

Wallr:

Great (finally!) that other 340 owners are now posting experiences and ideas for you.

My additional (albeit not from your model owner perspective) final input:

- Re the picture you posted of your boom end: 1) a lot of stuff seems to utilize the aft-most bale. Mainly to prevent stuff from "migrating" fore/aft along the boom. You might want to re-visit each line's purpose and clean things up a bit? The Hunter 340 manual diagram certainly isn't as complicated. 2) I'm curious about four wraps of thin line around the boom? 3) Your current end-boom sheeting set up is per OEM stock shown in the owner's manual. That would be only 2:1 (or probably 1.5:1 since the angles are less than 180 degrees).

- Ed Cadwell's configuration is much more conducive to you idea of a cabin top cam cleat control for the main sheet. My idea (starting with a clean slate) would to buy a triple block for mounting on the traveler. And a double for hanging off the second aft-most boom bale. Keep the current single block on the third aft-most bale. Tie the end of the sheet to the aft-most bale. Route down through the triple. Then up to the double. Down again to the triple. Up again to the double. Down again to the triple. And then up to the single on the 3rd aft-most bale before leading forward through the boom to the goose-neck. Allowing loss of some of the apparent 6:1 purchase due to some of the angles being less then 180 degrees, will give (say) about 5:1. effective... Ample enough for hand tension of the sheet in most normal wind conditions.

- Factor in that additional purchase will require a longer main sheet line. If say when you let out your existing 2:1 mainsheet arrangement from close haul to full out for running with the wind, and the "run-out" is 20 feet, a 5:1 will run out on the order of 50 feet. Up to you to determine the calculation!

 

[Wallrat]

The small line spaghetti is all part of the mainsail cover - and yes its a mess. Been busy getting other stuff up to par since we took ownership and haven't had time yet to sort it out.

Your description of the double/triple block combination is exactly what I'm thinking I'll do - the other option being a new single w/ becket at the aftmost bail, and reusing the traveler single at the 2nd from aft bail all fed through a new triple on the traveler keeping the forwardmost single where it's at.

Also thanks for the Garhaurer recommendation. They look like good blocks at a good price and they're semi-local to me so shipping should be quick.