Just an update on my progress on this issue. I have determined that the quadrant was produced by LS, a French manufacturer and is designed to be installed with a key not a pin. LS was kind enough to provide a drawing and the torque specification for the bolts (150 in/lbs). I have not yet disassembled the quadrant to verify that the boat was built without a key. I am speculting, but have not verified, that a key should not be installed due to the composite rudder shaft. There is a risk of delaminating the shaft with the shallow slot a key uses. My plan is to modify the quadrant to accept a pin and drill a through hole in the shaft. This is what is shown in the Beneteau parts information and was apparently used on some boats with a different quadrant. The relatively low bolt torque does not appear to be high enough to secure the quadrant and the cast aluminum quadrant could bend or break under higher torque levels. Bill
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Tim
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Bill, As there is no other post in this thread I am assuming you started another thread at some point describing your issue. Nonetheless, it appears you are talking about not having a pin through your steering quadrant & rudder post. My 1999 321 had a pin like you describe as being in the Beneteau drawings. I can't believe Beneteau did not design or install a pin in the 331. What do they say about it? Have you had slippage? If you do drill a hole and install a pin, I would recommend removing the rudder and assembling the quadrant onto the shaft and drilling with a drill-press. Good luck with the project! Tim
Bill, As there is no other post in this thread I am assuming you started another thread at some point describing your issue. Nonetheless, it appears you are talking about not having a pin through your steering quadrant & rudder post. My 1999 321 had a pin like you describe as being in the Beneteau drawings. I can't believe Beneteau did not design or install a pin in the 331. What do they say about it? Have you had slippage? If you do drill a hole and install a pin, I would recommend removing the rudder and assembling the quadrant onto the shaft and drilling with a drill-press. Good luck with the project! Tim
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Bill
331 Quadrant
Yes there was an earlier posting, you can find it in the archieve under the same title. Beneteau could not say definatively that the boat has been built with a pin and did say some had and had not. Apparently the used different quadrants and installation methods during the 331 production. Two other owners responded to the original thread indcating issues with quadrants moving on their boats (331,373). I was forced to go to the quadrant manufacturer for information on the installation of the quadrant but they are not sure how Beneteau installs them. My situation is 24 degreees of movement in one direction and 41 degrees in the other direction. The quadrant has clearly slipped. The keyway is internal to the quadrant and not visable as installed. A pin would be visable. As I said I do not believe a key is appropriate in a composite post. I have not fully evaluated how I will do the pin installation but I may have a drill bushing installed in the quadrant and use that the allow me to drill the rudder post in place. It is likely to be a spring project.
Yes there was an earlier posting, you can find it in the archieve under the same title. Beneteau could not say definatively that the boat has been built with a pin and did say some had and had not. Apparently the used different quadrants and installation methods during the 331 production. Two other owners responded to the original thread indcating issues with quadrants moving on their boats (331,373). I was forced to go to the quadrant manufacturer for information on the installation of the quadrant but they are not sure how Beneteau installs them. My situation is 24 degreees of movement in one direction and 41 degrees in the other direction. The quadrant has clearly slipped. The keyway is internal to the quadrant and not visable as installed. A pin would be visable. As I said I do not believe a key is appropriate in a composite post. I have not fully evaluated how I will do the pin installation but I may have a drill bushing installed in the quadrant and use that the allow me to drill the rudder post in place. It is likely to be a spring project.
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Tim
Wow!
Bill, The fact that Beneteau can't tell you whether a pin was installed, and says some had them and some didn't is pretty scary. So much for quality control. Unless there is something else holding the rudder post, and if the quadrant is slipping, it could be possible to lose the rudder altogether. Also pretty scary. I haven't seen a 331 installation, but I can tell you that on my 321 (which has since been sold) that if the quadrant was removed and pin pulled, the rudder will drop out. It was a simple process and I did it a couple of times (blister repair, propshaft removal) without a problem. Having a drill bushing installed in the quadrant and then drilling the post on-boat seems unnecessary. Again, I would recommend the easiest and least expensive method would be to just pull the rudder and drill as an assembly, firmly clamped on a drill press. Since you're in MI, the boat is probably out of the water now anyway, correct? I would also press Beneteau for a fix for this as the design and the fact they didn't use a pin exposes them to a lot of liability in the event the rudder is lost. While I really liked my 321, there were a lot of little design & production issues like this that has me looking for a Catalina now. Tim
Bill, The fact that Beneteau can't tell you whether a pin was installed, and says some had them and some didn't is pretty scary. So much for quality control. Unless there is something else holding the rudder post, and if the quadrant is slipping, it could be possible to lose the rudder altogether. Also pretty scary. I haven't seen a 331 installation, but I can tell you that on my 321 (which has since been sold) that if the quadrant was removed and pin pulled, the rudder will drop out. It was a simple process and I did it a couple of times (blister repair, propshaft removal) without a problem. Having a drill bushing installed in the quadrant and then drilling the post on-boat seems unnecessary. Again, I would recommend the easiest and least expensive method would be to just pull the rudder and drill as an assembly, firmly clamped on a drill press. Since you're in MI, the boat is probably out of the water now anyway, correct? I would also press Beneteau for a fix for this as the design and the fact they didn't use a pin exposes them to a lot of liability in the event the rudder is lost. While I really liked my 321, there were a lot of little design & production issues like this that has me looking for a Catalina now. Tim
331 rudder repair
We had some problems and had to repair our rudder this fall. See pictures at: http://picasaweb.google.com/DragonflyB331/DragonflyRudderDamageAndProp There was a pin that held the quadrant in place and kept it from turning. The rudder was held in place by a pin that went through a stainless steel bushing. See top of rudder tube picture. Mark
We had some problems and had to repair our rudder this fall. See pictures at: http://picasaweb.google.com/DragonflyB331/DragonflyRudderDamageAndProp There was a pin that held the quadrant in place and kept it from turning. The rudder was held in place by a pin that went through a stainless steel bushing. See top of rudder tube picture. Mark
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Bill
Quadrant
The next step is to remove the quadrant and verify what I believe to be true. Yes the boat is out of the water which is how I have been able to qantify this situation. The 331 installation calls for three pins; one for the emergency tiller, one for the quadrant and one for the rudder retention collar. In my case two pins have to be removed to rmove the rudder. The fact that I am not the original owner seems to be what Beneteau is using to avoid involvement.
The next step is to remove the quadrant and verify what I believe to be true. Yes the boat is out of the water which is how I have been able to qantify this situation. The 331 installation calls for three pins; one for the emergency tiller, one for the quadrant and one for the rudder retention collar. In my case two pins have to be removed to rmove the rudder. The fact that I am not the original owner seems to be what Beneteau is using to avoid involvement.
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Bill
331 Quadrant
I can see the retention collar pin but I can not see any evidence of a pin in the quadrant. The quadrant drawing calls out a key. Was your quadrant on the center position when your rudder was centered? If there is a pin can you describe where in the quadrant it is located with a little more detail? Thanks.
I can see the retention collar pin but I can not see any evidence of a pin in the quadrant. The quadrant drawing calls out a key. Was your quadrant on the center position when your rudder was centered? If there is a pin can you describe where in the quadrant it is located with a little more detail? Thanks.
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Doug_Meyer
Are you at Seng's
Just wondered if you were the 331 stored near my 323 at Sengs. If so, let me know if I can be of any help.
Just wondered if you were the 331 stored near my 323 at Sengs. If so, let me know if I can be of any help.
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Bill
331 Quadrant
Yes I am. I am not sure how I will be approaching this yet but would appreciate any assistance you can offer. Bill
Yes I am. I am not sure how I will be approaching this yet but would appreciate any assistance you can offer. Bill
Response to Bill Reply #5 and #6
Yes, we had 3 pins as you describ. Yes, the rudder is aligned with the quadrant. The pin in the quadrant was short. It was flush with the front and stuck out about 1/4 inch in the back. There was a slot on the back piece of the quadrant that accepted the pin and kept it aligned with the rudder and kept it from rotating on the rudder post. Sorry, I didn't get a good picture of this. We had to loosen the 4 bolts that clamped the quadrant to the rudder post before we could see the pin. If your quadrant can/has rotated on the rudder post, I suspect your pin in missing. Mark
Yes, we had 3 pins as you describ. Yes, the rudder is aligned with the quadrant. The pin in the quadrant was short. It was flush with the front and stuck out about 1/4 inch in the back. There was a slot on the back piece of the quadrant that accepted the pin and kept it aligned with the rudder and kept it from rotating on the rudder post. Sorry, I didn't get a good picture of this. We had to loosen the 4 bolts that clamped the quadrant to the rudder post before we could see the pin. If your quadrant can/has rotated on the rudder post, I suspect your pin in missing. Mark
Pins are aligned with the rudder in Dragonfly.
Bill, all three holes are in alignment with each other. If you look at the emergency rudder pin from above, it is in alignment with the rudder position. You are correct, you can not see the pin until the 4 bolts that hold the quadrant in place are loosened. Let me suggest another possibility/solution. But first, I want to be sure I understand your challenge. When the rudder is straight back in alignment with the boat, as it would be when you are sailing straight, the quadrant and emergency tiller pin are not straight, but on an angle. This allows the rudder to turn 41 degrees in one direction, but only 24 degrees in another for a total movement of about 65 degrees. This would suggest the holes were drilled 8-9 degrees out of alignment (32.5 is half of 65: 24+8.5= 32.5 = 41-8.5) If this is true, I would suggest you have a few options. I suspect other more knowledgeable sailors will have other and better options. 1. Spend $2700 for a new rudder...not a good option! 2. Live with it and recognize you have limited turning in one direction. Sounds like the previous owner choose this option. 3. Drill a new hole in alignment with the rudder. I would question this as a viable option as it would weaken the rudder post. 4. My favorite -- Adjust the rudder stop. If you review the picture "top of the rudder tube", you will see a square plastic rudder stop in the upper left corner. The stop limits the travel/movement/turning of the quadrant. The rudder stop is adjusted by loosening two bolts that hold it in place. A half inch of movement may fix your problem. Good luck! Mark
Bill, all three holes are in alignment with each other. If you look at the emergency rudder pin from above, it is in alignment with the rudder position. You are correct, you can not see the pin until the 4 bolts that hold the quadrant in place are loosened. Let me suggest another possibility/solution. But first, I want to be sure I understand your challenge. When the rudder is straight back in alignment with the boat, as it would be when you are sailing straight, the quadrant and emergency tiller pin are not straight, but on an angle. This allows the rudder to turn 41 degrees in one direction, but only 24 degrees in another for a total movement of about 65 degrees. This would suggest the holes were drilled 8-9 degrees out of alignment (32.5 is half of 65: 24+8.5= 32.5 = 41-8.5) If this is true, I would suggest you have a few options. I suspect other more knowledgeable sailors will have other and better options. 1. Spend $2700 for a new rudder...not a good option! 2. Live with it and recognize you have limited turning in one direction. Sounds like the previous owner choose this option. 3. Drill a new hole in alignment with the rudder. I would question this as a viable option as it would weaken the rudder post. 4. My favorite -- Adjust the rudder stop. If you review the picture "top of the rudder tube", you will see a square plastic rudder stop in the upper left corner. The stop limits the travel/movement/turning of the quadrant. The rudder stop is adjusted by loosening two bolts that hold it in place. A half inch of movement may fix your problem. Good luck! Mark
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Bill
331Quadrant
Mark, I wish it was as simple as the stop block. The 24 degree measurement is with the stop block loose and pushed all the way to the end of the slot in the block assembly. If I find an improperly aligned pin in the shaft I might consider fabricating a custom block that would shift further in the direction of the 24 degree direction. I need to disassemble the quadrant and determine if a pin is there. I had come to the conclusion that there is no pin but your input now leads me to think there may be one. It is hard to believe that Beneteau would drill these holes this far off the center line. However, they would not verfy that the holes should be on center instead when I told them the emergency tiller was not on center they said that it may not be on center from the factory. Perhaps they left the pin out because the hole was so far off! Of course there is the unthinkable that the rudder has rotated on the post. Two Beneteau owners have emailed me previously indicating that they had quadrants that had shifted. They relocated the quadrant and tightened the bolts. No pin is a real possibility. Bill
Mark, I wish it was as simple as the stop block. The 24 degree measurement is with the stop block loose and pushed all the way to the end of the slot in the block assembly. If I find an improperly aligned pin in the shaft I might consider fabricating a custom block that would shift further in the direction of the 24 degree direction. I need to disassemble the quadrant and determine if a pin is there. I had come to the conclusion that there is no pin but your input now leads me to think there may be one. It is hard to believe that Beneteau would drill these holes this far off the center line. However, they would not verfy that the holes should be on center instead when I told them the emergency tiller was not on center they said that it may not be on center from the factory. Perhaps they left the pin out because the hole was so far off! Of course there is the unthinkable that the rudder has rotated on the post. Two Beneteau owners have emailed me previously indicating that they had quadrants that had shifted. They relocated the quadrant and tightened the bolts. No pin is a real possibility. Bill
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Bill
331 Quadrant
Mark, During the course of your repair did you establish any contacts at Beneteau or any service organizations for technical assistance? I would appreciate any contacts you could provide. Bill
Mark, During the course of your repair did you establish any contacts at Beneteau or any service organizations for technical assistance? I would appreciate any contacts you could provide. Bill
Ward Richardson at Beneteau
Bill, I first called my dealer (3 hours away) and emailed him the link to the pictures. He helped me think through possible reasons for the damage, then called Beneteau. After talking to them, he suggested I call Ward directly. Ward was very helpful identifying the problem and finding the solution. He sent me the special applicator gun and the special epoxy. As I recall, he said I had to loosen the 4 yoke bolts, loosen the adjustment cable and remove the 3 pins to remove the rudder. He noted there was not much room. Being a visual learner, it make sense when I removed the hatches and began looking around in the area. I was fortunate to have Charlie who is smaller than me and loves to these types of thing. Ward Richardson Customer Service Ward.Richardson@beneteauusa.com Phone : (843) 629.5320 Fax : (843) 629.5329 I am also a member of a Google Beneteau Owners group. Good luck. Mark
Bill, I first called my dealer (3 hours away) and emailed him the link to the pictures. He helped me think through possible reasons for the damage, then called Beneteau. After talking to them, he suggested I call Ward directly. Ward was very helpful identifying the problem and finding the solution. He sent me the special applicator gun and the special epoxy. As I recall, he said I had to loosen the 4 yoke bolts, loosen the adjustment cable and remove the 3 pins to remove the rudder. He noted there was not much room. Being a visual learner, it make sense when I removed the hatches and began looking around in the area. I was fortunate to have Charlie who is smaller than me and loves to these types of thing. Ward Richardson Customer Service Ward.Richardson@beneteauusa.com Phone : (843) 629.5320 Fax : (843) 629.5329 I am also a member of a Google Beneteau Owners group. Good luck. Mark
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