2QM20 questions from H36 '80-82 new owner -

tmjb

.
Mar 13, 2012
222
Hunter 36C Glen Cove
As a new owner of a boat that has apparently sat unused for about 17 years I have started working may way through her systems. Top of the list is the engine. It starts and seems to run fine. However:

The starter will not function via the start button. The button energizes the solenoid (which clunks) but no more. Jumping the solenoid terminal from the adjacent power terminal on the starter works fine. There is power at the ignition and start switch. I've cleaned all of the grounds I could find and positives at the batteries.

The coolant and oil pressure switches do not ground. The lights all work but the buzzer only does so for the coolant not the oil.

In addition to the above, the engine appears to run very cool - coolant feels little more than tepid after 45 mins running (on the hard using November NE town water, 45 degrees ambient temp). Would this imply that there is no thermostat or is it typical?

Thanks for any advice.
 

RichH

.
Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
The starter circuit on the QM series engines were built with non-tinned wiring. The 'usual' electrical problem with the engine panel / starting system is all corrosion in the wiring and its wiring connectors.

The connectors are usually found in a sad state of corrosion which causes high resistance in the circuit .... which translates to large a voltage drop and high amperage at the device bering energized.
The usual 'worst offender' for corroded connectors on the QM series is the fuse holder (usually mounted on the aft portside of the engine) - replace it with a tinned wire fuse holder; and, the panel mounted 'start button' (usually full of carbon due to the high amperage / low voltage) - replace it too. The wiring of the engine panel on the QM engine is a 'nightmare' but carefully follow the wiring in an ordered and persistent manner; and, either clean or replace (with tinned wire/connetors) each and every wiring connector on this panel if you want a reliable starting.
Especially when the engine is hot and all that wiring corrosion becomes dry from the engine heat and further loses conductivity - to the solenoid, to the gages, senders, alarm lights, etc.
 
Nov 6, 2006
9,903
Hunter 34 Mandeville Louisiana
2QM electrical

Ditto Rich comments.. the fuse and holder and the multi-pin connectors are primary suspects. I have attached the electrical diagram for the 2 QM engine ..
Sounds like your thermostat is bad or not there. Are you looking at the temperature of the engine coolant on the "jumpover" hose to the thermostat housing, or looking at the temp of the expelled water? the expelled water and the water in the hose from the thermostat housing to the exhaust elbow will be pretty cool because there it will have been mixed with cold "bypass" water.. The water in the "jumpover" hose from engine block to the thermostat housing should be pretty warm .. Attached also is a schematic of the cooling system, showing the jumpover hose.. All other hoses will be cool/tepid.

EDIT: note that if you have a water heater, the jumpover hose will go to the heater and back, instead of being a simple jumpover as in the schematic.
 

Attachments

Last edited:
Sep 22, 2013
4
Hunter 33 Prince Edward Island
I had this problem and a local fisherman who is a wiz with diesels took off the the starter and saw that it was dirty on the inside. He took it home cleaned it out and it works fine now. It came off easy and you could send it it a auto electric repair shop.
 

tmjb

.
Mar 13, 2012
222
Hunter 36C Glen Cove
I think the problem is less likely to be my starter because the PO had the starter serviced last season.

I also do not believe that it is the starter switch because I jumped that using the connectors there with no change in the effect on the solenoid.

Too bad about the non-tinned wiring and connectors. I have looked at both ends of what I think are the critical wires relative to this problem and have cleaned (by light sanding) those that I can reach - particularly the battery terminals, the grounds at the engine, the positives at the starter/solenoid. I also found and inspected one multi-pin connector near the starter. However I followed the loom from the stater toward the panel and could not find a second connector as shown in the wiring diagram. Am I missing something? Where is it located?

I am thinking about running a positive wire from the battery switch to the control panel to try to overcome voltage loss due to resistance as an alternative (at least as an interim step) in lieu of full replacement of the wiring loom. Does anyone have an opinion about the effectiveness of this approach?

If I decide to rewire does anyone know if replacement looms are available from Yanmar? How about start switches?

Many thanks for the input.
 

tmjb

.
Mar 13, 2012
222
Hunter 36C Glen Cove
Re: 2QM electrical

Many thanks for the diagrams and advice. I'm not sure if I felt the crossover hose as I'm not yet familiar with the details of the system's function. I was more focussed on my electrical issues and paid less attention to the engine cooling.

However my 2QM20 has separate fresh water cooling so much of the system is closed, connected to a separate heat exchanger. I did feel the top of this (at the cap) and it was pretty tepid, as were the hoses to the water heater, so I'm inclined to think that my issue is likely a missing T/stat. I'll have to have a look as soon as I have a chance.

By the way I've been reading about problems with heating water in the heater via the engine cooling water as a result of low temp T/stats for the raw water cooled 2QM20. I'm interested to hear re experience/opinions on this issue and whether anyone has had success finding a higher temp T/stat to fit the originally raw water cooled engines.

Thanks again.
 
Jun 21, 2007
2,108
Hunter Cherubini 36_80-82 Sausalito / San Francisco Bay
In addition to the above, the engine appears to run very cool - coolant feels little more than tepid after 45 mins running (on the hard using November NE town water, 45 degrees ambient temp). Would this imply that there is no thermostat or is it typical?
This is normal. Hunter went about doing fresh water cooled (anti-freeze circulating in the engine block) QM series engines on many of our boats in an odd way. Rather than installing the fresh water QM models in the first place, they instead installed the seawater cooled versions (seawater circulating through the engine block). Then they converted these to fresh water cooling by adding an extra pump on the alternator belt circuit and putting on an external non-Yanmar heat exchanger. The heat exchanger is made by Sen-dure, model 2550. On some boats the HX is jury rigged on the side of the engine. On my boat it is mounted on a bulkhead under the port settee.

With this modification, the seawater thermostat housing is still utilized. Whereas anti-freeze engine thermostats are set to maintain engine operating temperature at a ~170F range, the QM sea water cooled thermostats open/close to keep the engine not more 125F. (Yanmar specs for the sea water thermostat are begin to open at 42C = 108F and fully open at 52c = 125F). This low operating temp is needed because at not much higher temps, minerals and salt precipitate out of sea water and will deposit within the engine's cooling fluid channels. Once blocked, the engine is ruined.

Note that only a 125F thermostat will fit into the thermostat housing on these sea water to fresh water modified engines. Even though they are now cooled by anti-freeze it is not possible to install a 170F thermostat.

Sometime back, I took the time to make notations about our odd conversion on the same diagram that kloudie1 also posted for you. Attached are pictures of my notations showing both the seawater and anti-freeze circuits.

On the "official" seawater cooled QM models, the pump that is integral to the engine normally pumps seawater through the engine and then out through the mixing elbow. On our converted seawater cooled models, the pump on the engine instead pumps anti-freeze in a continuous closed circuit through the engine, thermostat housing, and the external heat exchanger. A second pump is installed on the alternator belt to pump sea water through the heat exchanger and then out through the mixing elbow.

A positive with the conversion to anti-freeze in the block rather than sea water is that the engine zincs don't need to be checked/replaced. The external heat exchanger however, does have a pencil zinc since it handles sea water. This must be checked and replaced periodically.

A downside to this arrangement is that the Sendure heat exchanger doesn't have enough cooling capacity to keep the engine temp below that alarm trigger value of 60C = 140F (spec from the Yanmar manual) if the ambient seawater temp is high. In San Francisco, water temp never gets above about 60-65F, but if I have been motoring at 80%+ for a while, the temp alarm might sound. Or more frequently, if I throttle back to idle after a period of 80% motoring, the alarm sometimes sounds a minute or two later. I think this is because the slower engine rpm's means less seawater through the exchanger = less cooling capacity. But the engine is still warm from the motoring. After another minute, the alarm stops sounding. I don't get concerned about this because I do have a temp gauge in the cabin. I can see that the engine really isn't overheating to dangerous levels. So what if the engine temp has gone say to 145F? A normal anti-freeze engine operates at 170F+, so lots of head room still remains on my engine before the temp becomes dangerous.

For your reference, I have also attached a drawing I made of my Sen-dure heat exchanger showing the location of each hose fitting. I did this when soon after I bought my boat, I discovered that exchanger was leaking between the sea-water and anti-freeze sides. A local radiator shop with experience in exchanger repair was able to make it good again.

You will need to investigate all this more on your own. The conversion that Hunter made on these QM's isn't "in the manual". So hope the above gives you enough to get started on figuring it out.
 

Attachments

Jun 21, 2007
2,108
Hunter Cherubini 36_80-82 Sausalito / San Francisco Bay
Many thanks for the diagrams and advice. I'm not sure if I felt the crossover hose as I'm not yet familiar with the details of the system's function. I was more focussed on my electrical issues and paid less attention to the engine cooling.

However my 2QM20 has separate fresh water cooling so much of the system is closed, connected to a separate heat exchanger. I did feel the top of this (at the cap) and it was pretty tepid, as were the hoses to the water heater, so I'm inclined to think that my issue is likely a missing T/stat. I'll have to have a look as soon as I have a chance.

By the way I've been reading about problems with heating water in the heater via the engine cooling water as a result of low temp T/stats for the raw water cooled 2QM20. I'm interested to hear re experience/opinions on this issue and whether anyone has had success finding a higher temp T/stat to fit the originally raw water cooled engines.

Thanks again.
Saw this after I posted my info. 4-5 years ago, I did look and ask around about a higher temp thermostat that might fit the housing. No go. So I've learned to feel fine with what I have. My boat doesn't have a hot water heater, so higher coolant temp for that reason isn't needed.

I'm not even sure now going to ~170F would be a good idea. My gut feeling is why risk operating at much higher temps an engine that has been used to much lower for 35 years. In particular, the head gasket has settled in. Also, a higher pressure radiator (heat exchanger in this case) cap is needed. And an external coolant tank over flow tank would be a good idea.

According to the Service Manual, the thermostat can be checked by placing it in a pot of water. Raise the temperature on a stove. With a thermometer in the water, the thermostat will start to open at about 108 F and be fully open at about 125F.
 

RichH

.
Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
I am thinking about running a positive wire from the battery switch to the control panel to try to overcome voltage loss due to resistance as an alternative (at least as an interim step) in lieu of full replacement of the wiring loom. Does anyone have an opinion about the effectiveness of this approach?

If I decide to rewire does anyone know if replacement looms are available from Yanmar? How about start switches?

You dont need to run an 'auxilliary start' wiring from the battery switch. Simply run from the BATT connection on the starter ... to a fused push button switch ... to the primary wire terminal on the solenoid. Mount this switch in a convenient 'remote' location. This will connect the very same starter/solenoid terminals that you use to 'jumper' a starter/solenoid.

As for control panel looms this engine is obsolete; but, you may find such looms in some Yanmar distributor stock; but, they will be the vulnerable NON-tinned wire. Better to bite the bullet and make your own replacement wiring from 'tinned' components and then 'seal' the connectors with shrink wrap and with a bit of dielectric grease inside the shrink wrapping to retard water vapor ingress .... same as done with 'underground' electrical connectors.

That 'starter' push-button probably should be replaced every few years due to the frequent carbon / metal oxide build-up on its internal contacts ... especially if you start the engine with less than a fully charged independent start battery/battery switch that provides lower voltage (voltage drop) and consequential higher amperage draw through the push button switch.
 
Nov 6, 2006
9,903
Hunter 34 Mandeville Louisiana
Fresh Water Cooling, 2QM

Sorry, I figured it was a sea water cooled engine.. I have attached the official Yanmar diagrams for the fresh watercooled engine.. 2QM20Y(F).. some of the QM's were modified to fresh water cooling by non-Yanmar aftermarket kits so this still may not be exactly correct.. Hope this helps.
 

Attachments

tmjb

.
Mar 13, 2012
222
Hunter 36C Glen Cove
Many thanks to you all for the continued invaluable advice. I sincerely appreciate it and will let you know how I progress - as the weather allows. Unfortunately it's pretty cold all of a sudden here in the NE now.
 

bmjpv

.
Oct 3, 2014
14
Hunter 37c' Vonore Tn
Many questions answered for me

I have a 79' 37c w/3qm30h with the aftermarket cooling modification. I've had my boat for 20 years and getting the cooling system to operate to my standards has always been a struggle. Now all this low gadget temp reading make some since. I logged into this Hunter site last nov 14' and have not stopped reading & learning . Many thanks for this knowledge base.
 
Sep 12, 2011
88
Hunter 27 Annapolis
This may sound crazy, but don't worry if you don't have a thermostat. Imagine running your $4000 engine and it overheats because of a $10 thermostat sticking. Some marine mechanics I know who work on big diesels take that thermostat out first thing. Honestly, you don't need it. Maybe in extremely cold climates, but you still have the issue of overheating because of a cheap part.
I had my 2GM20F installed in the 90's I think and I have had no issues with the engine not getting hot in time. (Not as I have read in this thread) (Usually takes about 10 minutes before it begins to heat up.) But I don't have hot water so it's no big deal to me. Good luck to you in the wiring. I simply replace all the wiring.
 

tmjb

.
Mar 13, 2012
222
Hunter 36C Glen Cove
This is normal. Hunter went about doing fresh water cooled (anti-freeze circulating in the engine block) QM series engines on many of our boats in an odd way. Rather than installing the fresh water QM models in the first place, they instead installed the seawater cooled versions (seawater circulating through the engine block). Then they converted these to fresh water cooling by adding an extra pump on the alternator belt circuit and putting on an external non-Yanmar heat exchanger. The heat exchanger is made by Sen-dure, model 2550. On some boats the HX is jury rigged on the side of the engine. On my boat it is mounted on a bulkhead under the port settee.

With this modification, the seawater thermostat housing is still utilized. Whereas anti-freeze engine thermostats are set to maintain engine operating temperature at a ~170F range, the QM sea water cooled thermostats open/close to keep the engine not more 125F. (Yanmar specs for the sea water thermostat are begin to open at 42C = 108F and fully open at 52c = 125F). This low operating temp is needed because at not much higher temps, minerals and salt precipitate out of sea water and will deposit within the engine's cooling fluid channels. Once blocked, the engine is ruined.

Note that only a 125F thermostat will fit into the thermostat housing on these sea water to fresh water modified engines. Even though they are now cooled by anti-freeze it is not possible to install a 170F thermostat.

Sometime back, I took the time to make notations about our odd conversion on the same diagram that kloudie1 also posted for you. Attached are pictures of my notations showing both the seawater and anti-freeze circuits.

On the "official" seawater cooled QM models, the pump that is integral to the engine normally pumps seawater through the engine and then out through the mixing elbow. On our converted seawater cooled models, the pump on the engine instead pumps anti-freeze in a continuous closed circuit through the engine, thermostat housing, and the external heat exchanger. A second pump is installed on the alternator belt to pump sea water through the heat exchanger and then out through the mixing elbow.

A positive with the conversion to anti-freeze in the block rather than sea water is that the engine zincs don't need to be checked/replaced. The external heat exchanger however, does have a pencil zinc since it handles sea water. This must be checked and replaced periodically.

A downside to this arrangement is that the Sendure heat exchanger doesn't have enough cooling capacity to keep the engine temp below that alarm trigger value of 60C = 140F (spec from the Yanmar manual) if the ambient seawater temp is high. In San Francisco, water temp never gets above about 60-65F, but if I have been motoring at 80%+ for a while, the temp alarm might sound. Or more frequently, if I throttle back to idle after a period of 80% motoring, the alarm sometimes sounds a minute or two later. I think this is because the slower engine rpm's means less seawater through the exchanger = less cooling capacity. But the engine is still warm from the motoring. After another minute, the alarm stops sounding. I don't get concerned about this because I do have a temp gauge in the cabin. I can see that the engine really isn't overheating to dangerous levels. So what if the engine temp has gone say to 145F? A normal anti-freeze engine operates at 170F+, so lots of head room still remains on my engine before the temp becomes dangerous.

For your reference, I have also attached a drawing I made of my Sen-dure heat exchanger showing the location of each hose fitting. I did this when soon after I bought my boat, I discovered that exchanger was leaking between the sea-water and anti-freeze sides. A local radiator shop with experience in exchanger repair was able to make it good again.

You will need to investigate all this more on your own. The conversion that Hunter made on these QM's isn't "in the manual". So hope the above gives you enough to get started on figuring it out.
Hi rardiH36,

I hope all is well with you and you are getting some good sailing.

I'm finally getting back to this after our long, cold winter here in The Northeast. I have a question re the pumps and the heat exchanger. I would like to replace the pump impellers and zinc on the latter. I am assuming that the direct engine mounted coolant pump would take an impeller intended for the seawater cooled 2QM20. Is this correct? Do you know the specifications and/or part numbers for the other impeller and the heat exchanger zinc?

Thanks for any insight.
 
Jun 21, 2007
2,108
Hunter Cherubini 36_80-82 Sausalito / San Francisco Bay
Hello tmjb:)

I have a list of the impeller part numbers on my boat. I should be able to visit the marina today. I will post the info later.

rardi
 

tmjb

.
Mar 13, 2012
222
Hunter 36C Glen Cove
Thanks so much.i really appreciate the prompt reply. As always your input is invaluable.
 
Jun 21, 2007
2,108
Hunter Cherubini 36_80-82 Sausalito / San Francisco Bay
The attached photo of the "useful info" page from my engine maintenance log book contains part numbers for the various impeller manufacturers.

Regarding the external belt driven pump, suggest that you do verify that yours is a Jabsco 2760-0003.

The impellers are also available from Yanmar. Due to a Yanmar dealer only a 5 minute walk from my boat, I find getting from them more convenient than searching/ordering from the internet. Unfortunately, I never transferred the Yanmar part #'s to my engine log.
 

Attachments

Jun 8, 2004
1,007
C&C Frigate 36 St. Margarets Bay, Nova Scotia
There are two very useful Yanmar parts lists at the bottom of this page, here on HunterOwners.com The one called "Yanmar Parts List" was published a long time ago by a dealer in Australia - the prices are really out of date but there is a LOT of useful information in it.
 
Jun 21, 2007
2,108
Hunter Cherubini 36_80-82 Sausalito / San Francisco Bay
There are two very useful Yanmar parts lists at the bottom of this page, here on HunterOwners.com The one called "Yanmar Parts List" was published a long time ago by a dealer in Australia - the prices are really out of date but there is a LOT of useful information in it.
I forgot about these!. Thanks for the link. I've downloaded and saved to my engine manual folder.