25 vs 26S, who's best to windward?

[HeelBoy]

Not intending to start a fight among owners here! lol
I'm shopping and there's quite a few of these in my area.
They only have 6in of LWL difference, and I'm suspecting the extra foot on the 26 is at the stern and thus not an addition to cabin space...?
The 25 also reports a bit more sail area, is this true?
The big difference seems to be below the waterline. The iron keel of the 25 has a longer chord length, but that's also more wetted area. The 26S probably heels less with the water ballast, thus may be more efficient?

I'm splitting hairs here, but a knot or two counts on a long trip.

 

[THECUSCUS]

I'm pretty partial to the V25 , no experience with the 26's. Check out my Utube channel, there are many videos of my V25 in action. Oh, and she's been modified to a 7/8th fractional rig to use J24 headsails (plentiful and inexpensive).
sailingwiththecuscus

 

[stickinthemud57]

A 26S sailor here. How well my boat points depends on the sail I am carrying vs the wind I am sailing in and how much velocity made good I am willing to sacrifice to point to windward. If I am willing to sail as close to the wind as possible using the 100% jib, I can achieve about a 100 to 110 degrees arc, which would translate to 50 to 55 degrees. The boat is much happier at 55 to 60 degrees, so I think VMG would be better at that angle. Definitely not J-boat territory, but I find I am holding my own against most of the the cruising keelboats I pit myself against. I have not had the chance to go head-to-head with a 25.

The 26S has about 2.5' of lazarette behind the cockpit and cabin, which is very handy for storage and gas tank. I would hate to be without it.

Hard to say which would heel less. 1250 lbs of water ballast vs what? 500 lbs of swing keel below the waterline if I am not mistaken. I believe that raising the centerboard on the 26S is much easier as it can be done by pulling on a rope. Raising the swing keel on the 25 is done by some kind of winch arrangement, correct?

How much sail they carry seems more a matter of choice than design.

With the similarity of PHRF ratings (222 for the 26S, and 231 for the 25), the difference is likely to be more in tenths of a knot. According to that formula, the 26S would finish a 1-mile course 9 seconds ahead of the 25, so the choice would lie more in which boat would you rather be sailing, trailering and sleeping in. Since I can leave 1250 lbs on the boat ramp before I drive off, I prefer the 26S when it comes to trailering.

 

[HeelBoy]

Since I can leave 1250 lbs on the boat ramp before I drive off, I prefer the 26S when it comes to trailering.

That is definitely an attractive factor. Honestly, both boats are well within my towing range, but I am of the belief that "the easier it is to use, the more you'll use it".

How does the water ballast system work on your 26s? You pull a plug and it fills up via a hole below the waterline? Are there any long term maintenance issues with the tanks or systems?

 

[stickinthemud57]

Yeah, I came very close to getting a 25, but between the maintenance difficulties some have experienced with the swing keel on the 25, extra storage at the lazarette, and interior layout, I opted for the 26S

The water ballast works much as you described. In the saloon, just under the stairway, you operate a valve that opens to the underside of the boat. Once the ballast fills (you check it through the vent hole), you close the valve and put a plug in the vent hole so that it does not slosh out when the boat heels. Maintenance is minimal. Just pour a little chlorine in every now and then to keep algae from growing and to kill any zebra mussel larvae.

 

[HeelBoy]

Maintenance is minimal.

In cruising the Googles, I see a fair amount of discussion about leaks and how to repair them. What would actually cause a leak (damage) in the ballast tank? Isn't the bottom of the tank comprised of the hull?

 

[stickinthemud57]

Unmodified, there are no through-hulls below the waterline on the 26S. I suppose it is possible water could get in through the centerboard pivot bolt, and after going out on a windier day, I have found that a little water has splash up through the tube that the centerboard rope passes through, but never more than can be handled with a towel, and a small one at that.

I have never had any problem with leaks from the ballast tank, so I can't comment. Down below the floor, it's not easily accessible, so a leak there could be difficult to trace and fix. Prime suspect would be the vent plug not sealing properly.

In my experience, most of what gets in on my boat comes from rainwater infiltration. Windows, hatches, traveler track, etc. Never enough to be problematic since I get out to my boat a lot, and always check for and deal with any that has gotten in. I would say it would be a good idea to cover the boat for seasonal storage, but that's true of any boat.

 

[stickinthemud57]

FWIW, I am waiting on sails and rigging from Blue Water Yachts that purportedly will make my 26S point better. Todd McChesney (the owner) sails a 26S and has developed a rigging kit that allows for flying a larger jib inside the lifelines. (125 SF as opposed to the 105 SF of the standard 100% jib). It will be later this year before the jib arrives, but I will post the results.

 

[Tedd]

In cruising the Googles, I see a fair amount of discussion about leaks and how to repair them. What would actually cause a leak (damage) in the ballast tank? Isn't the bottom of the tank comprised of the hull?

I owned a 26S for four years.

Yes, the bottom of the ballast tank is the outer hull and the top of the ballast tank is basically the floor of the cabin. (The actual floor might be a cosmetic layer, I can't remember.) I think there have been cases where people left water in the ballast tank in the winter leading to freezing and damage. That would be a big problem. It's hard for me to imagine getting leaks any other way, except for puncturing the hull from the outside. But that would leak ballast water back into the ocean, not into the boat.

There's an inspection port for the ballast tank in the floor of the boat. Perhaps people have had trouble with those leaking? That would be very minor, though, and easy to fix.

 

[stickinthemud57]

I owned a 26S for four years.

Yes, the bottom of the ballast tank is the outer hull and the top of the ballast tank is basically the floor of the cabin. (The actual floor might be a cosmetic layer, I can't remember.) I think there have been cases where people left water in the ballast tank in the winter leading to freezing and damage. That would be a big problem. It's hard for me to imagine getting leaks any other way, except for puncturing the hull from the outside. But that would leak ballast water back into the ocean, not into the boat.

There's an inspection port for the ballast tank in the floor of the boat. Perhaps people have had trouble with those leaking? That would be very minor, though, and easy to fix.

Very good point about freezing. Yes, very big problem when that happens! Thankfully not a worry where I live (north Texas) as long as the tank is fully drained.

The cabin floor almost certainly rests on the ballast tank, but I'm pretty sure it's not integral. The approach with this boat is that you have the structural shell that contains the interior liner.

What Tedd is referring to as the inspection port is what I was calling the vent port. Potato potato.

 

[Alan Gomes]

I'm splitting hairs here, but a knot or two counts on a long trip.

Not to split hairs about your splitting hairs, but "a knot or two" would be a massive difference between the two boats.

 

[Tedd]

What Tedd is referring to as the inspection port is what I was calling the vent port. Potato potato.

I'm talking about the ballast tank inspection port in the floor in front of the head, not the vent hole that's under the companionway.

 

[stickinthemud57]

I'm talking about the ballast tank inspection port in the floor in front of the head, not the vent hole that's under the companionway.

Oops. My bad. Thanks for the clarification!

 

[Newell]

A 26S sailor here. How well my boat points depends on the sail I am carrying vs the wind I am sailing in and how much velocity made good I am willing to sacrifice to point to windward. If I am willing to sail as close to the wind as possible using the 100% jib, I can achieve about a 100 to 110 degrees arc, which would translate to 50 to 55 degrees. The boat is much happier at 55 to 60 degrees, so I think VMG would be better at that angle. Definitely not J-boat territory, but I find I am holding my own against most of the the cruising keelboats I pit myself against. I have not had the chance to go head-to-head with a 25.

This post adds pointing degrees to the S model that makes it sound more like the X model, in my opinion. I don't have experience with the S, I haven't sailed the one I just purchased yet. My D, Windancer is a proven racer and gets 45 degrees to the wind and can pinch down several degrees and still make slower headway without stalling. The difference between the D and S is the CB and perhaps the lower pointing reported is due to the CB.

Waterballasted Macs were all around easier to trailer and some are faster than the earlier model ballasted boats.

 

[stickinthemud57]

A 26S sailor here. How well my boat points depends on the sail I am carrying vs the wind I am sailing in and how much velocity made good I am willing to sacrifice to point to windward. If I am willing to sail as close to the wind as possible using the 100% jib, I can achieve about a 100 to 110 degrees arc, which would translate to 50 to 55 degrees. The boat is much happier at 55 to 60 degrees, so I think VMG would be better at that angle. Definitely not J-boat territory, but I find I am holding my own against most of the the cruising keelboats I pit myself against. I have not had the chance to go head-to-head with a 25.

This post adds pointing degrees to the S model that makes it sound more like the X model, in my opinion. I don't have experience with the S, I haven't sailed the one I just purchased yet. My D, Windancer is a proven racer and gets 45 degrees to the wind and can pinch down several degrees and still make slower headway without stalling. The difference between the D and S is the CB and perhaps the lower pointing reported is due to the CB.

Perhaps so. The CB angles back on the S and goes straight down on the D. Perhaps I am not "pushing" as hard as you, by which I mean I typically don't sail as close to the wind as I necessarily could, wanting to get better forward speed. Perhaps I should see how the boat performs with the centerboard straight down.

 

[stickinthemud57]

Looks like Heelboy pulled the trigger on a 25, so further discussion may be moot. However, I did try changing the angle on my centerboard to straight down as opposed to swept back, and it did seem to improve pointing angle considerably. This is very hard to judge with constantly shifting lake winds, so I will have to continue to keep an eye on this to see if I get consistent results.

 

[HeelBoy]

. However, I did try changing the angle on my centerboard to straight down...

Nice, how did you manage that? Did you need to grind material off the centerboard?

 

[stickinthemud57]

LOL. No, it was just a matter of how I cleated off the rope that holds up the centerboard. Using the diagram at SailboatData.com - MACGREGOR 26S Sailboat, I made a mark on the centerboard rope to give me the angle showed on the diagram. If I just leave that rope entirely slack, the centerboard hangs straight down, as it would if it were a centerboard. I get the best of both worlds - full depth from the centerboard, but with the ability to have it kick up if I hit bottom, and the ease of hauling it up to maximize speed downwind.