25 knots!

[Dan Johnson]

Brian...

unless you have Bill Roosa's experience and boat, stay in port like a number of others advise. Getting out may not be the issue, but getting back in certainly will be. At the top of the Elk the wind fetch up the Bay will raise some pretty big waves. An H23 doesn't have the mass (weight) to deal with these conditions, especially in inexperienced hands. Stand on the dock Sunday morning and watch what others are doing, that is, if you can get a good night's sleep aboard in this weather! LOL!!!

 

[Vern]

Careful, Brian

You sound exactly like me when I first got my Hunter 260. The first day I got it launched was very windy and raining. I didn't want to start out on a day like that so I returned to my slip. I got slammed sidewise by the wind into the ends of the adjacent docks as I tried to re-enter my slip. Through the grace of god, there was not yet a boat in either of the 2 slips I was blown into, hence no damage.The second time I went out, 30 knot winds were forecast. Where I sail, the wind is uninterrupted over the water for 30 miles, causing 3' seas. I hated to admit it but I was thoroughly unprepared for the experience. Same result when I tried to re-enter the slip. Again no consequences, luckily. My wife had just had major surgery 3 weeks prior to that day and the bow breaking over the waves asnd banging down on the water could have undone some of the surgical successes. I talked her into going with us and I felt terrible about doing so.You just know that Bill from Bodkin Creek is several steps up the ladder from you and me, relative to experience. Take it from a fellow neophyte, if you have to ask about whether to go out in those conditions, you'll probably be a lot happier staying home and looking forward to next year. Do what I did: read this forum and everything else you can find about handling your boat. You'll be surprised at what you can learn.

 

[r.w.landau]

Don't be foolish but make it memorable.

The only days I remember are the challenging ones. Not the unsafe ones, just challenging ones.The other ones I remember are the stinking hot, buggy,.... ones that get inbetween the Admirable and I.If nothing else, find someone that you know is a good sailor, ask if you can join them. Take your own life jacket! Most sailors are happy to have added help on a rough day. If the owner is a good sailor, your will learn alot about heavy weather, and treating the boat with respect.Don't just go home!r.w.landau

 

[Franklin]

Put it this way

The low that's going across the country and causing all this wind, it used to be a Category III hurricane in the pacific before it went ashore in Mexico and now headed to the east coast.

 

[Wandering Cs]

Brian, Your Post #5 is ALARMING

Brian M H23 Philadelphia 10/27 at 12:30PM General_interest Reply #5 If anyone else read the replies to your post, I'm shocked this was not noticed."the river is shallow enough that in most places i can drop my swing keel as a second anchor"Suggestion: Get some more "learning" before leaving dock under any condition. I will not take the time to explain why using your keel as an anchor is wrong and dangerous (expensive?). Learning why for yourself will help you retain the information. Sailing is only fun when it is safe.PLEASE, take a course, even an on-line, un-proctored course will help. Start with basics and work up. When you understand the difference between a keel and an anchor, fly the rags...When you learn, on land, what to do when, prepare and practice. Have fun. I've been sailing for 35+ years, my boat is ready for the conditions your facing. I would have NO hesitation in going out alone.Best wishes and good luck,JohnWandering C's1969 P33, #114

 

[sailortonyb Allied Mis]

Listen to r.w.landau

Listen to r.w. For God's sakes, you are in a river, not in the middle of the Atlantic. I took my Mac 25 out in the Gulf of Mexico all the time in 25K and thats how i taught myself to sail. Yes, when all the 'experienced' sailors were sitting at the dock talking about the wind. My girlfriend always used to ask.."how come we are the only ones out here". I guess we didnt know any better.

 

[nick maggio]

Stay Home

It sounds like you should stay on land and sail another day or next year,until you have tested your new to you boat and and your sailing skills its not worth havingg something unexpected go wrong with equipement on your untested new to you boat.You need to know when to pack things up for the year and look forward to next year.

 

[David10790]

The Math of Wind Speed

One of the things I did not understand when I started sailing was how loads on the rig build up as the wind speed increases. Becauses sails are a surface, their power goes up as the square of the wind velocity. As a result, 25 knots is twice as powerful as 18 knots, and four times as powerful as 12.5 knots.That means that the loads on your jib sheets, on your main sheet and on all parts of the rig are going to be higher than you have experienced. Add in dynamic forces like gusts and waves, and you will certainly find out if your new boat is up to the challenge. For my money, I would rather find out when the water is warmer, the air is warmer and their are more people around to help if various elements of the rig are not as robust as you hope.By the way, hope you bench test or slip test the outboard for a while before relying on it to get you back in these conditions.

 

[sailortonyb Allied Mis]

If you dont do it, you will never learn.

Here is what you do.......ignore the armchair sailors or you will never learn to sail. Im not advocating wrecklessness, but only good controlled fun. With a 23 foot boat you have the advantage over larger boats. One of the prime reasons the larger boats dont go out in 25K wind is because getting in and out of the slip could be a disaster or a major embarrassment at best. I dont think anyone would actually cop to this, but I will. With an outboard motor, you can dock a boat in a keyhole if you had to. So much for that problem.Wile at the dock and safely tied up, slowly and carefully raise your main t the first reef point you see. Tie it off at that reef point, then lower your sail again and tie it up as you normally do.now, motor out away from the dock, IF and only If you are still comfortable with the idea, raise your main. Its already reefed so you cant catch too much wind. Sail with main alone. If you are still OK with this, slowly furl out your jib to about 75%. Chance are you still wont be overpowered. If you dont have roller furling, your should have hanked on your smallest jib at the dock first. If its larger than 110%, I wouldnt put it up and you still ought to sail fine.Please follow up whetehr you went sailing or not. Have a ball.

 

[sailortonyb Allied Mis]

BTW..................

If you do go out Sunday, you will then have more experience than most of the folks replying to your post.

 

[s sauer]

Small Craft Advisory

Brian, You may already be on yout boat; The winds are presently at 19 and gusting to 27 knots and there is a small craft advisory in effect.From your post I assume you are new to this boat and somewhat inexperienced.The Elk river is somewhat protected from west winds at least close in to shore on the west. However. once you get out, and certainly if you go south of Turkey Point you will be in for some serrious wind and waves in the winds forcasted. This is not the day for a trial sail in a new-to-you 2450 lb displacement boat with only 800 lbs of ballast.Not many, if any people will be around in the northern Chesapeake and certailnly non of us advising you on this post, not even those in the 35 and 37 footers will be going out today.There's a decent crab house close by in NorthEast, Maryland - Enjoy a diner and drinks and try again next weekend.

 

[RichH]

Watch the timing of the tides carefully if you

do go out. As of 4PM today the upper Chesapeake is *over-loaded* with water due to the strong winds and the high tide is already 4ft. above normal (normal is 1+ ft at high tide). When the wind turns to the NW (pushing water out of the Del. Bay and the Tide begins to outflow through the C&D canal you can expect to see some very large steep standing waves in the Elk River and adjacent area. With such heavy weather soon to 'push' the high water out of the Northern Chesapeake, the wind driving a lot of water out of the Delaware Bay, the 'inflow' from the Susquehanna R. (quite high from all the rain and the possibility that they may begin to open some gates on the Conowingo Dam) ..... you can sometimes see upwards of 4-5+ kts at Town Point when conditions are similar to whats happening at the present time. If you have a strong engine there will be no problem but against such current (which is close to your hull speed when sailing) you are probably going to have be very 'good' to sail against such strong current. Before you go out into the Elk R. below Town Point tomorrow you might want to do some serious 'checking' and 'timing' with the current draining through the C&D canal .... I predict its going to be 'bodaceous'. Compare the 'actual' / real time tide data and flows at Tolchester beach vs. Reedy Point on the Del Bay. (http://tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/data_menu.shtml?stn=8573364%20Tolchester%20Beach,%20MD&type=Tide%20Data)(http://tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/data_menu.shtml?stn=8551910%20Reedy%20Point,%20DE&bdate=20061027&edate=20061028&ssid=A1&datum=6&unit=1&shift=&type=Tide%20Data&format=View+Plot&plot_backup=)Conowingo Dam: http://newweb.erh.noaa.gov/ahps2/river.php?wfo=ctp&wfoid=18795&riverid=203356&view=1%2C1%2C1%2C1%2C1%2C1&pt%5B%5D=145356&allpoints=143514%2C141442%2C144571%2C143932%2C142532%2C144410%2C143241%2C144811%2C144245%2C142289%2C143792%2C141309%2C144397%2C144389%2C145356&data%5B%5D=all&data%5B%5D=hydrograph&data%5B%5D=impacts&data%5B%5D=probflow&data%5B%5D=probvol&data%5B%5D=flow&data%5B%5D=crests&submit=Make+my+River+Page%21

 

[Franklin]

Prediction

I predict that by noon on Sunday the winds will die down a little to the high teens as the low moves farther northeast. It's already in NY and should be in Main before sunrise.Go for it

 

[Mike]

Watch the debris!

If you do go out, which I don't recommend, watch out for the debris that will be in the water. With the overflow from the Susquehanna & C&D and general high tides there will be a lot of trash in the water. On a recent trip after one of our recent storms and consequent high tides we counted no fewer than 8 tires complete with rims floating about the Bay and Elk River. Cant even tell you how many large branches, trees and various wooden pieces were out there as well.As for trying it or you'll never learn otherwise, just some thoughts.Learning when your overwhelmed is difficult and dangerous.Why would you risk taking a new boat that your unfamiliar with into trying conditions?Don't go overboard. The water temps are now low enough hyperthermia (sp?)will set in very quickly.If your still unsure about it call the Coast Guard and see what they suggest. After all they're the one's who will have to come after you should something serious happen.Finally if you had to ask if you should go in the first place then you already know the answer, Dont!

 

[sailortonyb]

Franklin..........

The 'psychic hotline' does not qualify as a reliable source for weather prediction.

 

[sailortonyb]

I admit.....

I admit that 25K winds can be rough, but I dont consider it a death defying feat as some of you are implying. Bryan has got the right idea by staying on his boat the night before and seeing how he feels about it in the morning. If he powered away from the dock he would be as safe as in a powerboat. If he reefed his sails before leaving the dock, then he shouldnt be overwhelmed by the wind when he raises it. The one thing that some of you forget is that some fears and concerns are based on confidence. Some of us have more confidence in ourselves than others. There is another way of interpreting the following statement.."if you had to ask if you should go in the first place then you already know the answer", well maybe he asked with the idea in mind that he feels ready and was looking for some reinforcement to his enthusiasm. Obviously, all the experts think I'm wrong and Brian should sit annd wave to the wind. If you never leave the slip, you will be much safer.

 

[Mike]

25 kts

It's easy to tell him to go when you have no risk in it. By now he should be on his boat and hopefully tucked away for the evening. I'm sure he'll make the right decision and let eveyone know how it went. Good luck Brian.

 

[RichH]

huh?

Let me make this very simple: Full Gale warnings into Sun evening, A fully flooded bay becoming choked with debris because the gates on a major dam are opening, that the bay when it drains (northward) has significant current and large standing waves when it flows through the river (canal) that he's contemplating to sail in. If he 'misses' he gets flushed 20 miles all the way across the state of Delaware ... into New Jersey. Right now there are trees becoming uprooted all over the place. I sail a large 'heavy' cutter, sail in the same waters and cancelled my sailing plans for this weekend. If I were at sea, I'd probably be thinking about heaving-to.

 

[sailortonyb Allied Mis]

BRIAN !!!!!

Sorry about the bow railing damage. I have done the exact same thing with 3 different boats. I'm glad you went out. I would have been happy for you even if you didnt, as long as you spent the night to evaluate the siutuation in the morning. I mentioned in an earlier posting that in rough weather, the thing that usually stops me from going out is the anticdipated problems with getting in and out of the slip. Its not the sailing part. I have only been sailing for aboiut 8-9 years and i have owned a 25 MacGregor, a 25 Catalina, a 31/32 Bruce Roberts, a 30 Catalina and now a 39 Allied Ketch. When the weather was really bad, I never hesitated to take out the MacG. Being the smallest, lightest weight and easiest to handle, it would be my first choice today (for a day sail in this weather)if I still owned it.Ill bet the best lessons learned today are that you CAN do it !!! From now on, if you get caught in a small squall, the first thought that will come to your mind is that "this aint as bad as that day when.....". believe me, that has always been a comforting and reassuring thought to me. You now have more experience that a lot of other folks.Hope your damage isnt too costly. Oh, and one more thing. No one here can second guess or even attempt to secong guess what you should have done differently, because we werent there. Give yourself about 2 more months of sailing, and you will figure it out.Congrats. Tony B

 

[sailortonyb Allied Mis]

BRIAN !!!!!

Sorry about the bow railing damage. I have done the exact same thing with 3 different boats. I'm glad you went out. I would have been happy for you even if you didnt, as long as you spent the night to evaluate the siutuation in the morning. I mentioned in an earlier posting that in rough weather, the thing that usually stops me from going out is the anticdipated problems with getting in and out of the slip. Its not the sailing part. I have only been sailing for aboiut 8-9 years and i have owned a 25 MacGregor, a 25 Catalina, a 31/32 Bruce Roberts, a 30 Catalina and now a 39 Allied Ketch. When the weather was really bad, I never hesitated to take out the MacG. Being the smallest, lightest weight and easiest to handle, it would be my first choice today (for a day sail in this weather)if I still owned it.Ill bet the best lessons learned today are that you CAN do it !!! From now on, if you get caught in a small squall, the first thought that will come to your mind is that "this aint as bad as that day when.....". believe me, that has always been a comforting and reassuring thought to me. You now have more experience that a lot of other folks.Hope your damage isnt too costly. Oh, and one more thing. No one here can second guess or even attempt to secong guess what you should have done differently, because we werent there. Give yourself about 2 more months of sailing, and you will figure it out.Congrats. Tony B