Hi all, Forgive me if this is a stupid question, but I'm stuck just like these bolts. I just bought this great Cal 28, but like any 20 year old boat some stuff just has to be fixed. The end caps on the Schaefer 1-1/4" mainsheet traveler were completely shot from 20 years of ultra-violet. I contacted Schaefer and they actually still sell the caps for this now obsolete size traveler system. So, I ordered a pair and then went naively off to replace them. I removed the nuts from the underside of the bolts and tried to remove the bolts. Lotsa luck! They appear to be aluminum bolts into the aluminum bridge bases and are absolutely frozen solid. I'm not really sure if the bolts are aluminum, but they don't seem to be too strong despite their large size. Electrolysis?? Any tips would be greatly appreciated. I hate to just brute force it and break something off. Or, is the best way to drill them out and clean out the threads in the base with a tap??
1986 Cal 28 Traveler End Cap screws frozen
- Thread starter Smitty
- Start date
- Status
Better than liquid wrench
try PB Blaster, big aerosol can. Spray, let it sit for a day, try again. Should do the trick. Stu
try PB Blaster, big aerosol can. Spray, let it sit for a day, try again. Should do the trick. Stu
Maybe a little problem with those new caps
One of the usual lubricants that Stu mentions will do the job, but it turns out that the end caps which Schafer sells which are the right size and type for our 1980's Cal 28 travelers are not shaped the same way on the inside. Your new ones will probably need to be carved out a bit with a rotary tool to fit those ends properly. I was told by my rigger last year that I had bought the last set of the old type that anyone had left in stock...sorry...
One of the usual lubricants that Stu mentions will do the job, but it turns out that the end caps which Schafer sells which are the right size and type for our 1980's Cal 28 travelers are not shaped the same way on the inside. Your new ones will probably need to be carved out a bit with a rotary tool to fit those ends properly. I was told by my rigger last year that I had bought the last set of the old type that anyone had left in stock...sorry...
What to do with
Stu's rec is a good one; this product will - eventually - win out over time. First, protect the surrounding area; Blaster stains easily. And just as you've already chosen to do, don't be in a hurry. Apply, wait a day, try the bolts and, if no joy, spray some more and wait another day. Your fasteners are surely stainless but used with aluminum hardware; always a sorry combination, long term, on boats. On a hefty spar, the next step would be an impact wrench (riggers don't have days to twiddle their thumbs...) but, for a traveler, you might bend or damage something. Instead, consider adding some mechanical advantage via a small cheater bar; again, nothing dramatic but it might be a big help in getting that first 1/16th of a turn. After withdrawal, use an anti-seize product for the new bolts...just in case. Tef-gel is my favorite but lots of choices in this department. Jack
Stu's rec is a good one; this product will - eventually - win out over time. First, protect the surrounding area; Blaster stains easily. And just as you've already chosen to do, don't be in a hurry. Apply, wait a day, try the bolts and, if no joy, spray some more and wait another day. Your fasteners are surely stainless but used with aluminum hardware; always a sorry combination, long term, on boats. On a hefty spar, the next step would be an impact wrench (riggers don't have days to twiddle their thumbs...) but, for a traveler, you might bend or damage something. Instead, consider adding some mechanical advantage via a small cheater bar; again, nothing dramatic but it might be a big help in getting that first 1/16th of a turn. After withdrawal, use an anti-seize product for the new bolts...just in case. Tef-gel is my favorite but lots of choices in this department. Jack
Thanks ... and another question
Thanks all for the helpful responses. I'm having trouble locating PB Blaster. Anyone have a pointer on where to find it?? I've been working on it with Liquid Wrench. So far, no go. Rich, Thanks for the info. I corresponded with Schaefer before ordering these caps. Wouldn't it have been nice of them to give me a heads up ... Again, thanks. I'm glad to hear from another Cal 28 owner fairly close by.
Thanks all for the helpful responses. I'm having trouble locating PB Blaster. Anyone have a pointer on where to find it?? I've been working on it with Liquid Wrench. So far, no go. Rich, Thanks for the info. I corresponded with Schaefer before ordering these caps. Wouldn't it have been nice of them to give me a heads up ... Again, thanks. I'm glad to hear from another Cal 28 owner fairly close by.
Locations
Most auto parts stores have it - it is well known among mechanics. You might even find a mech who will loan you a can.
Most auto parts stores have it - it is well known among mechanics. You might even find a mech who will loan you a can.
Coke or pepsi will often help too
tap on the bolts and work them back and forth a little at a time. Go slow and give it time to work. Twisting and tapping on them even a little will kind of pump the liquid into the threads.
tap on the bolts and work them back and forth a little at a time. Go slow and give it time to work. Twisting and tapping on them even a little will kind of pump the liquid into the threads.
Now I broke a bolt
Well, I got some PB Blaster and sprayed both the end bolts liberally. Then I applied a 3/8" screwdriver with some gentle persuasion, in the form of a small crescent wrench, with predictable results. I thought it was starting to turn but it was only twisting off. Honest, I wasn't pulling that hard! I thought stainless would be tougher than it is. Anyone had any experience with drilling and removing a broken off stainless bolt that's been in a tapped hole in aluminum for 20 years? Of course, it broke down in the traveler so there's no chance of getting ahold of it. I think I probably need a real hard drill and "easy-out" combination, but since the threads are still really stuck, I'm not too confident I can make this work either. I haven't really attacked the bolt on the other end yet. Now I'm gun shy. I probably should have let this go until I could get the entire traveler off the boat. I'm not convinced these bolts are stainless. This one broke way easier than I would expect for stainless, it doesn't look like stainless and it's a fairly long (1-1/2" - 2") 12-24 flat head bolt. I can't find that kind of bolt in stainless steel anywhere. It acts more like plain old steel than it does stainless, however it hadn't rusted at all???? BTW: The new end caps I got direct from Schaefer fit perfectly.
Well, I got some PB Blaster and sprayed both the end bolts liberally. Then I applied a 3/8" screwdriver with some gentle persuasion, in the form of a small crescent wrench, with predictable results. I thought it was starting to turn but it was only twisting off. Honest, I wasn't pulling that hard! I thought stainless would be tougher than it is. Anyone had any experience with drilling and removing a broken off stainless bolt that's been in a tapped hole in aluminum for 20 years? Of course, it broke down in the traveler so there's no chance of getting ahold of it. I think I probably need a real hard drill and "easy-out" combination, but since the threads are still really stuck, I'm not too confident I can make this work either. I haven't really attacked the bolt on the other end yet. Now I'm gun shy. I probably should have let this go until I could get the entire traveler off the boat. I'm not convinced these bolts are stainless. This one broke way easier than I would expect for stainless, it doesn't look like stainless and it's a fairly long (1-1/2" - 2") 12-24 flat head bolt. I can't find that kind of bolt in stainless steel anywhere. It acts more like plain old steel than it does stainless, however it hadn't rusted at all???? BTW: The new end caps I got direct from Schaefer fit perfectly.
should drill out okay
Smitty, look or feel underneath your traveler support leg to see if the bolt goes all the way through (it does on mine). If so, drilling it out won't be a big problem--you may even be able to grab the end from underneath with a pliers and turn it. I'm supposing someone may have replaced the original bolt with a galvanized, but when you drill out the bolt the threads on the traveler (note the correct spelling--one "l") should be in good enough shape to accept a new one. The problem between the new and old versions of the end cap was that the new version prevented the hole in the cap from lining up with the hole in the traveler. If yours matches, then you're in good shape. These caps aren't essential for function--the screws by themselves will hold the cars on track, and the track looks just fine without them (though they could be hard on the knees if you land on them). The original screws on these were slotted, but now would be a good time to convert to Phillips if you can find the right threading in marine stainless (you don't want to have to search for two different screwdrivers in an emergency--I wish the nice Irish folks who manufacture Whale bilge pumps would convert to Phillips screws someday...)
Smitty, look or feel underneath your traveler support leg to see if the bolt goes all the way through (it does on mine). If so, drilling it out won't be a big problem--you may even be able to grab the end from underneath with a pliers and turn it. I'm supposing someone may have replaced the original bolt with a galvanized, but when you drill out the bolt the threads on the traveler (note the correct spelling--one "l") should be in good enough shape to accept a new one. The problem between the new and old versions of the end cap was that the new version prevented the hole in the cap from lining up with the hole in the traveler. If yours matches, then you're in good shape. These caps aren't essential for function--the screws by themselves will hold the cars on track, and the track looks just fine without them (though they could be hard on the knees if you land on them). The original screws on these were slotted, but now would be a good time to convert to Phillips if you can find the right threading in marine stainless (you don't want to have to search for two different screwdrivers in an emergency--I wish the nice Irish folks who manufacture Whale bilge pumps would convert to Phillips screws someday...)
Hey Rich,
if you are going to wish for a better screw, then you should be wishing for a Robertson screw. These are better in every way than a Phillips but I understand not used much in the USA. Robertson is the screw of choice north of the 49 th. Regards from Canada, Bob B.
if you are going to wish for a better screw, then you should be wishing for a Robertson screw. These are better in every way than a Phillips but I understand not used much in the USA. Robertson is the screw of choice north of the 49 th. Regards from Canada, Bob B.
Okay, I'll bite...
Okay Bob, I have no idea whether I know what a Robertson screw is--do you have any links or pictures?
Okay Bob, I have no idea whether I know what a Robertson screw is--do you have any links or pictures?
Get ready to bite
Robertson is better known in the US as a square drive. Invented by a Canadian as a better solution to the slotted head but wouldn't licence it to Ford and so a man named Phillips struck a deal...see the link below.
Robertson is better known in the US as a square drive. Invented by a Canadian as a better solution to the slotted head but wouldn't licence it to Ford and so a man named Phillips struck a deal...see the link below.
I'm in the same boat as Smitty
so it's off to the AP store for a can of PB Blaster, which will then take up residence in my dock box with the rest of my growing collection of cans and bottles and jars of neat stuff that rarely gets used, but can't be lived without. And if the head breaks off, I get to invest in an EZ-out set.... probably a good investment, anyway (that's what I'll tell the Commodore!) BTW, Smitty, stainless steel isn't necessarily harder than carbon or alloy steel, and in general terms has less tensile strength than either carbon or alloy. It's claim to fame is in it's mis-leading (stainless) name. No, I'm not a metallurgist, I googled it (and stayed at a HI Express a few years ago)... the link is at the bottom. Cheers, Bob s/v X SAIL R 8
so it's off to the AP store for a can of PB Blaster, which will then take up residence in my dock box with the rest of my growing collection of cans and bottles and jars of neat stuff that rarely gets used, but can't be lived without. And if the head breaks off, I get to invest in an EZ-out set.... probably a good investment, anyway (that's what I'll tell the Commodore!) BTW, Smitty, stainless steel isn't necessarily harder than carbon or alloy steel, and in general terms has less tensile strength than either carbon or alloy. It's claim to fame is in it's mis-leading (stainless) name. No, I'm not a metallurgist, I googled it (and stayed at a HI Express a few years ago)... the link is at the bottom. Cheers, Bob s/v X SAIL R 8
Monty Miller
Well, it took a Canadian Expat to provide the Robertson screw answer. No doubt the inventor learned that marketing is more than half the battle. Being from Edmonton, you will know "my" sailing area, Lake Wabamun. On Aug 3, the CNR had a derailment half way down the lake & dumped about one million liters of Bunker C onto the shore & into the lake. They pretty well ignored the oil flowing into the lake until the rails were back in place & the trains running again. The lake is still closed to the public. A short sailing season! This picture is not very clear. Regards, Bob B.
Well, it took a Canadian Expat to provide the Robertson screw answer. No doubt the inventor learned that marketing is more than half the battle. Being from Edmonton, you will know "my" sailing area, Lake Wabamun. On Aug 3, the CNR had a derailment half way down the lake & dumped about one million liters of Bunker C onto the shore & into the lake. They pretty well ignored the oil flowing into the lake until the rails were back in place & the trains running again. The lake is still closed to the public. A short sailing season! This picture is not very clear. Regards, Bob B.
Thanks to all for the great responses
There's a lot of great stuff here. Rich, thanks for all your help. I've drilled out a lot of non stainless bolts without problems. I've just heard so many horror stories about drilling stainless that it kinda scared me off. Are cobalt drills really required? I checked the new caps and they seem to fit. However, with the bolts still there, I didn't get them all the way on. So, I may still have the fitting issue. A web store named boltdepot.com (www.boltdepot.com) lists all kinds of stainless (18-8) fasteners in individual or box quantities at great prices. Yes, they do go all the way through and even had elastic stop nuts on the underside of the traveler support. However, even with the nuts off, they don't protrude far enough to grab them. Bob, thanks for the information about stainless. I kind of knew this intuitively, but it's nice to have my guesses confirmed. Steph, this is probably a little off topic, but, Chikara is a great boat. We had her out on the Sound Sunday in 1-3' seas with 10-15 kt from the South with 20 kt gusts. Didn't reef (perhaps I should have). Max heel about 25 deg.(mostly 10 - 20 deg.). Never felt unsafe or uncomfortable and 5.5 - 6 knots all day on various points of sail from wind aft, wing and wing to close hauled. A great boat all the way around. Just remember we are talking about 20 year old boats here. You can probably expect some aging problems. For me it's time to re-bed all the deck hardware and give the Westerbeke some TLC (1700 hours). If you'd like to talk more, contact me via email. Look me up in the directory. -Smitty
There's a lot of great stuff here. Rich, thanks for all your help. I've drilled out a lot of non stainless bolts without problems. I've just heard so many horror stories about drilling stainless that it kinda scared me off. Are cobalt drills really required? I checked the new caps and they seem to fit. However, with the bolts still there, I didn't get them all the way on. So, I may still have the fitting issue. A web store named boltdepot.com (www.boltdepot.com) lists all kinds of stainless (18-8) fasteners in individual or box quantities at great prices. Yes, they do go all the way through and even had elastic stop nuts on the underside of the traveler support. However, even with the nuts off, they don't protrude far enough to grab them. Bob, thanks for the information about stainless. I kind of knew this intuitively, but it's nice to have my guesses confirmed. Steph, this is probably a little off topic, but, Chikara is a great boat. We had her out on the Sound Sunday in 1-3' seas with 10-15 kt from the South with 20 kt gusts. Didn't reef (perhaps I should have). Max heel about 25 deg.(mostly 10 - 20 deg.). Never felt unsafe or uncomfortable and 5.5 - 6 knots all day on various points of sail from wind aft, wing and wing to close hauled. A great boat all the way around. Just remember we are talking about 20 year old boats here. You can probably expect some aging problems. For me it's time to re-bed all the deck hardware and give the Westerbeke some TLC (1700 hours). If you'd like to talk more, contact me via email. Look me up in the directory. -Smitty
Don't forget the Cal forum
You guys who are new to Cal 28's (we're unofficially calling the 1985-1989 Lear-Siegler boats the "28-2" model) should read and post in the Cal forum (see the menu of boat names on the forums menu and click the tiny "cal" under the c's). You'll find plenty of recent discussion about our boats, including my opinion that the 28-2's have a lot of maintenance issues now that only an owner with lots of time and skills (but not necessarily money) will successfully stay on top of. I'm still looking for a picture of one of these square screws, but I get the idea--they're like those screws with the hexagonal heads that can be worked with a wrench as well as a screwdriver?...
You guys who are new to Cal 28's (we're unofficially calling the 1985-1989 Lear-Siegler boats the "28-2" model) should read and post in the Cal forum (see the menu of boat names on the forums menu and click the tiny "cal" under the c's). You'll find plenty of recent discussion about our boats, including my opinion that the 28-2's have a lot of maintenance issues now that only an owner with lots of time and skills (but not necessarily money) will successfully stay on top of. I'm still looking for a picture of one of these square screws, but I get the idea--they're like those screws with the hexagonal heads that can be worked with a wrench as well as a screwdriver?...
Hey Rich, You're on the wrong
track regarding the Robertson screw. It is not a square head or a hex head! The drive in the head is a recessed square that is also very slightly tapered. The screwdriver end is also square & is a real tight, positive fit in the screw. If the screw is placed on the screwdriver & hit, it will wedge itself into place & not fall off in any position. Any deck screws that I have seen are all Robertson type. They are made for wood, sheet metal & machine threads. All different head shapes are available. Round, flat, pan, oval etc. I will try to add a link, but it might not work as I am computer challenged! I knew it, the link didn't work. Google "Robertson screws", lots of pictures. Bob B.
track regarding the Robertson screw. It is not a square head or a hex head! The drive in the head is a recessed square that is also very slightly tapered. The screwdriver end is also square & is a real tight, positive fit in the screw. If the screw is placed on the screwdriver & hit, it will wedge itself into place & not fall off in any position. Any deck screws that I have seen are all Robertson type. They are made for wood, sheet metal & machine threads. All different head shapes are available. Round, flat, pan, oval etc. I will try to add a link, but it might not work as I am computer challenged! I knew it, the link didn't work. Google "Robertson screws", lots of pictures. Bob B.
Phosphoric Acid
A rust remover with Phosphoric acid will free up the screws if you can get it into the threads. I have soaked stuff in Ospho the metal primer and the oxides bubble out leaving the threads clean
A rust remover with Phosphoric acid will free up the screws if you can get it into the threads. I have soaked stuff in Ospho the metal primer and the oxides bubble out leaving the threads clean
- Status