I am getting some movement (wabble) in my rudder. Maybe about 1/2 to 3/4's of an inch when I move it from side to side. I noticed this when we pulled the boat. Is there anyway to tighten it up? Any suggestions will be greatly be appreciated
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Steve, had a similar problem on our ...
1989 H28. Our surveyor said ours was within limits, but to keep an eye on it. He said that if it got worse one way to fix it was to insert a hand cut teflon shim around the rudder post where it enters the hull. You will need to drop the rudder a few inches in order to insert the shim. You can purchase the shim material from most marine stores. It comes in thin multi-purpose teflon sheets. Just cut it to fit and wedge it around the post to take up most if not all of the slack. He said that our rudder post rides in a plastic tube and over time will wear. The teflon shim is an easy fix, so he said. We sold our H28 before it became an issue. In the three years we owned the boat there was no change in the amount of play. Terry
1989 H28. Our surveyor said ours was within limits, but to keep an eye on it. He said that if it got worse one way to fix it was to insert a hand cut teflon shim around the rudder post where it enters the hull. You will need to drop the rudder a few inches in order to insert the shim. You can purchase the shim material from most marine stores. It comes in thin multi-purpose teflon sheets. Just cut it to fit and wedge it around the post to take up most if not all of the slack. He said that our rudder post rides in a plastic tube and over time will wear. The teflon shim is an easy fix, so he said. We sold our H28 before it became an issue. In the three years we owned the boat there was no change in the amount of play. Terry
Climb in the quarterberth.......
(isn't it amazing how many jobs on a H31 start with that.....) Assuming that the steering didn't change between '84 and '87 (my boat): Remove the cover on the ceiling of the quarterberth. It extends from the rudder shaft forward to the bottom of the steering pedestal. (Carefully support this cover while removing the last few screws, it's not very strong and not much fun to contemplate replacing it). The steering quadrant is a wheel around the rudder stock (post) and it has 2 steel cables running to it from the pedestal. Trace these cables to the 'wheel' and you'll see that they go about half way around it from opposite sides and then go towards the center of the wheel like spokes. The steel cables turn into solid rods (they are swaged or something) and the rods are threaded on the ends. Follow all this to the nuts on the ends of the solid rods on the end of the cables coming from the steering pedestal....... and just tighten the nuts ;D Fred was right, a picture would sure help. If you need more detail, please let me know. I took that cover off today (very carefully) to install my autopilot. I'm going for a day-sail tomorrow and can easily take some pictures of the steering quadrant (I'm going to take them anyway) and let me know if you would like to see them. What I'm not sure of is how much play (wobble) is acceptable. I tightened mine till it 'felt' right..... it could very easily have 1/2" or even 1" of wobble... I don't think I was that observent. Cheers, Bob s/v X SAIL R 8
(isn't it amazing how many jobs on a H31 start with that.....) Assuming that the steering didn't change between '84 and '87 (my boat): Remove the cover on the ceiling of the quarterberth. It extends from the rudder shaft forward to the bottom of the steering pedestal. (Carefully support this cover while removing the last few screws, it's not very strong and not much fun to contemplate replacing it). The steering quadrant is a wheel around the rudder stock (post) and it has 2 steel cables running to it from the pedestal. Trace these cables to the 'wheel' and you'll see that they go about half way around it from opposite sides and then go towards the center of the wheel like spokes. The steel cables turn into solid rods (they are swaged or something) and the rods are threaded on the ends. Follow all this to the nuts on the ends of the solid rods on the end of the cables coming from the steering pedestal....... and just tighten the nuts ;D Fred was right, a picture would sure help. If you need more detail, please let me know. I took that cover off today (very carefully) to install my autopilot. I'm going for a day-sail tomorrow and can easily take some pictures of the steering quadrant (I'm going to take them anyway) and let me know if you would like to see them. What I'm not sure of is how much play (wobble) is acceptable. I tightened mine till it 'felt' right..... it could very easily have 1/2" or even 1" of wobble... I don't think I was that observent. Cheers, Bob s/v X SAIL R 8
Whoops! I think we need a definition of wobble...
I interpreted it as lateral movement of the rudder without corresponding movement of the wheel. Looks like Terry Cox saw it as up and down movement? Clarification, please, Steve?
I interpreted it as lateral movement of the rudder without corresponding movement of the wheel. Looks like Terry Cox saw it as up and down movement? Clarification, please, Steve?
rudders wobble but we hope they don't fall down
A photo would be great...Thanks.. I would define wobble as a lateral movement fore and aft as well as side to side. I do not know what is normal but it seems to have some extra play in it. I did not try to move the rudder up and down. I'll go back next weekend and check that out. The bottom paint should have worn off my hands by then. Thanks for all the replies Steve
A photo would be great...Thanks.. I would define wobble as a lateral movement fore and aft as well as side to side. I do not know what is normal but it seems to have some extra play in it. I did not try to move the rudder up and down. I'll go back next weekend and check that out. The bottom paint should have worn off my hands by then. Thanks for all the replies Steve
Rudder Post Support
Follow the earlier directions to access the ruder quadrant; but before tightening the cables, check to see if you can move the whole assembly around at it's upper end. If you find significant movement, it's possible the rudder is wobbling on it's plywood support. You will probably need to remove the quadrant to look at the condition of the three to four bolts that hold down the delrin collar. If those bolts are loose or have worn larger holes thru the plywood, the whole assembly slides around and that movement accelerates wear at the bottom end of the rudder tube where it exits the hull. My 28.5 had only three of the four bolts initially installed so I had a lot of wear at the three bolt holes thru the plywood. I re-built the top end with 8 layers of fiberglass cloth over the plywood and relocated 4 new holes to center the delrin collar. The wear & tear on the lower end was enough that I re-cast three inches of the lower tube by injecting graphite impregnated epoxy around a PVC mandrel exactly the same diameter as the rudder shaft. That was a tedious exacting process that may not be necessary if you solve the initial delrin collar issue soon enough. In my opinion, if you just tighten the cables and the bolts are loose you may worsen the probem faster and/or the aft end of the rudder may eventually begin to contact the hull.
Follow the earlier directions to access the ruder quadrant; but before tightening the cables, check to see if you can move the whole assembly around at it's upper end. If you find significant movement, it's possible the rudder is wobbling on it's plywood support. You will probably need to remove the quadrant to look at the condition of the three to four bolts that hold down the delrin collar. If those bolts are loose or have worn larger holes thru the plywood, the whole assembly slides around and that movement accelerates wear at the bottom end of the rudder tube where it exits the hull. My 28.5 had only three of the four bolts initially installed so I had a lot of wear at the three bolt holes thru the plywood. I re-built the top end with 8 layers of fiberglass cloth over the plywood and relocated 4 new holes to center the delrin collar. The wear & tear on the lower end was enough that I re-cast three inches of the lower tube by injecting graphite impregnated epoxy around a PVC mandrel exactly the same diameter as the rudder shaft. That was a tedious exacting process that may not be necessary if you solve the initial delrin collar issue soon enough. In my opinion, if you just tighten the cables and the bolts are loose you may worsen the probem faster and/or the aft end of the rudder may eventually begin to contact the hull.
Ah, a different kind of 'wobble'....
My original response dealt with tightening the cables to keep the rudder from rotating without the steering wheel moving.... can we call that 'sloppy rotation'??? Up and down movement was the subject of Terry Cox's post. Now, S. Sauer looks at looseness of the shaft in its load-bearing surfaces. Is that all of the possible wobbles? S. Sauer, since you obviously studied this in detail I have a question: Is the bottom tube just made of fiberglass? Or is there any type of load-bearing surface inside it? Also, if you have pictures or a detailed description of your repair process, I'd be interested.... seems like that is something that is going to wear over time and use, especially if there is nothing to bear the load. Cheers, Bob s/v X SAIL R 8
My original response dealt with tightening the cables to keep the rudder from rotating without the steering wheel moving.... can we call that 'sloppy rotation'??? Up and down movement was the subject of Terry Cox's post. Now, S. Sauer looks at looseness of the shaft in its load-bearing surfaces. Is that all of the possible wobbles? S. Sauer, since you obviously studied this in detail I have a question: Is the bottom tube just made of fiberglass? Or is there any type of load-bearing surface inside it? Also, if you have pictures or a detailed description of your repair process, I'd be interested.... seems like that is something that is going to wear over time and use, especially if there is nothing to bear the load. Cheers, Bob s/v X SAIL R 8
Response to Bob's questions
Bob, Sorry, It was probably about 5 years ago that I did the major overhaul of the rudder system,including an attempt at getting the water out of a Foss Foam rudder, but that's another long story. I don't have any photographs, but an important thing I didn't mention about the re-build of the support under the delrin collar is that I had the rudder post out of the boat when I rebuilt the plywood support and cast the newbearing surface. I believe there is another nylon or delrin insert that appears to be built-into the bottom of the rudder post right at the hull itself, though I could not see how to remove and replace it. It was worn such that it was noticeably 'sloppy' and that's why I cast the graphite impregnated bearing surface just above it. I found the directions for that process in a West Systems (epoxy) booklet. If there was any question as to how much of a perfectionist I can become with my do-it your-self repairs, I also drilled and epoxied two brass barbed pressure tube fittings from the exterior of the rudder tube into the sides of that bearing surface. I've connected the fittings with flexible tubing to two Zerk grease nipples accessible from the starboard stern seat hatch so I can easily grease the bearing surface. By the way, the rudder has no slop at all, no vibration and is still smooth as silk turning.
Bob, Sorry, It was probably about 5 years ago that I did the major overhaul of the rudder system,including an attempt at getting the water out of a Foss Foam rudder, but that's another long story. I don't have any photographs, but an important thing I didn't mention about the re-build of the support under the delrin collar is that I had the rudder post out of the boat when I rebuilt the plywood support and cast the newbearing surface. I believe there is another nylon or delrin insert that appears to be built-into the bottom of the rudder post right at the hull itself, though I could not see how to remove and replace it. It was worn such that it was noticeably 'sloppy' and that's why I cast the graphite impregnated bearing surface just above it. I found the directions for that process in a West Systems (epoxy) booklet. If there was any question as to how much of a perfectionist I can become with my do-it your-self repairs, I also drilled and epoxied two brass barbed pressure tube fittings from the exterior of the rudder tube into the sides of that bearing surface. I've connected the fittings with flexible tubing to two Zerk grease nipples accessible from the starboard stern seat hatch so I can easily grease the bearing surface. By the way, the rudder has no slop at all, no vibration and is still smooth as silk turning.
Clarification to my reply
The issue with our H28 had to do with the diameter of the plastic tube that the rudder post runs through. According to our surveyor the rudder post will slowly wear away the tube where the post exits the hull, thus enlarging it. So, when you grab the bottom of the rudder and move it back and forth laterally you could see and feel the post moving in the tube. He told us that some movement is normal. When it becomes sloppy (his words) is when you want to insert this cut-to-fit teflon shim. Our issue had nothing to do with up and down (vertical) post movement. He did not say whether adjusting the quadrant steering cables would fix the problem. I'm not sure it would in our case. The play on our boat was maybe one quarter inch. If you know a surveyor, they or Hunter Marine may know whether yours is acceptable or not. IMHO one half to three quarter inch seems excessive to my untrained eye. Terry
The issue with our H28 had to do with the diameter of the plastic tube that the rudder post runs through. According to our surveyor the rudder post will slowly wear away the tube where the post exits the hull, thus enlarging it. So, when you grab the bottom of the rudder and move it back and forth laterally you could see and feel the post moving in the tube. He told us that some movement is normal. When it becomes sloppy (his words) is when you want to insert this cut-to-fit teflon shim. Our issue had nothing to do with up and down (vertical) post movement. He did not say whether adjusting the quadrant steering cables would fix the problem. I'm not sure it would in our case. The play on our boat was maybe one quarter inch. If you know a surveyor, they or Hunter Marine may know whether yours is acceptable or not. IMHO one half to three quarter inch seems excessive to my untrained eye. Terry
West System Fix
I had the same wobble. You'll find a lot in the archives about replacing rudder bearings, but West System Epoxy has the best fix (get their Fiberglass Boat Repair and Maintenance booklet)by coating the rudder shaft with Vaseline, drilling small holes in the shaft housing, and injecting epoxy to form "pads" or fill around the shaft. Inserting teflon material as suggested above is quicker, but may not last as long, and the teflon can work its way down and out if the shaft housing is too worn.
I had the same wobble. You'll find a lot in the archives about replacing rudder bearings, but West System Epoxy has the best fix (get their Fiberglass Boat Repair and Maintenance booklet)by coating the rudder shaft with Vaseline, drilling small holes in the shaft housing, and injecting epoxy to form "pads" or fill around the shaft. Inserting teflon material as suggested above is quicker, but may not last as long, and the teflon can work its way down and out if the shaft housing is too worn.
Here are the pictures I mentioned.
This is the steering quadrant. The long threads sticking out of the middle are one of the adjusting rods for the steering cables. The white tube below the clamped rubber hose is the bearing surface that several posters have mentioned. Cheers, Bob
This is the steering quadrant. The long threads sticking out of the middle are one of the adjusting rods for the steering cables. The white tube below the clamped rubber hose is the bearing surface that several posters have mentioned. Cheers, Bob
Where do you drill the holes and how many?
Reply to Dean I assume you drill into the fiberglass tube to inject the epoxy. How many holes? Is the tube the bearing or is there something else. Thanks Steve
Reply to Dean I assume you drill into the fiberglass tube to inject the epoxy. How many holes? Is the tube the bearing or is there something else. Thanks Steve
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