1981 Thru Hull replacement sources / name

[Bob Pullen HC-33 1981]

Recently noticed my aft thru hull (not pictured but identical to midship - pictured) was not closing. Luckily boat is light and aft thru hull stays at water line, so that when I removed sanitation hose (1.5" i.d.) I could see out, while water was kept out as well, due to high inside bronze valve fixture. But I could see clearly down into the very turquois blue below. Sealed with an outside plug, then cleaned hose and reassembled with double clamps. Then decided to check other same age, same size, thru hull amidship (galley drain), and noticed the sad state of affairs in picture. Decided to change both.
Any suggestions where to source replacements? What is the most appropriate for the salty waters of the Yucatan/Belize/Roatan? What is the name of the replacement assembly (technology)? I'm in the US on a repair shopping mode for now. We will be hauling out in another month or 2 and I plan on taking these back with me for installation while on the hard.
Many thanks
Bob
S/V Seanorita
Yucatan

 

[woodster]

What is the name of the replacement assembly (technology)? I'm in the US on a repair shopping mode for now. We will be hauling out in another month or 2 and I plan on taking these back with me for installation while on the hard.
Many thanks
Bob
S/V Seanorita
Yucatan

first off that is a gate valve....it has no place on a boat below the water line..it will sink your boat....not trying to scold you just educating you ......

take a look at Maine Sails post under Compass Marineor musings with Maine Sail on the subject of ball valves and through hull fittings...

hope this helps

regards

woody

 

[Sumner]

.....take a look at Maine Sails post under Compass Marineor musings with Maine Sail on the subject of ball valves and through hull fittings......

I recently replaced all 8 thru-hulls on the Endeavour using MS's instructions...

http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/replacing_thruhulls

.... and really like the final install.

It is much better than what was there. It is some work but well worth it in my mind. Also if someone is doing this Albany County Fasteners...

http://www.albanycountyfasteners.com/default.asp

... has the bronze flathead machine screws and nuts/washers for way less than I could find any place else. I don't think they show on the web site, but they have them if you call. I also get all of my SS bolts from them and they have fast/free shipping,

Sum
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[Bob Pullen HC-33 1981]

Many thanks for the help. It seems like a better technology must have come along in the last 30yrs, so I'm glad to hear this is the case. However, upon looking closer at what is being suggested as today's norm, it seems like the mentality is to drill 3 more holes in your boat's hull than what seemed to hold very well over the last 30 yrs. What we may gain in stability with the "flanged" approach we trade-off by adding 3 possible sources of water entry. Not sure I'm sold yet on the design, but sure do appreciate the step by step approach on the suggested website.
Many thanks also to Maine Sail.
cheers
Bob

 

[tommays]

You drill holes in the G10 plate you epoxy down No extra holes in the boat needed

 

[Sumner]

I worried a little about 3 more holes also, but after doing it have no concerns at all. Once you fair over the screw heads with filler you don't even see them and the sealer recommended by MS looks like a good deal to me.

I don't see a problem with Tommay's approach either and did consider it but it would of been somewhat hard to do in my case without some additional steps and wondered if my backing plates (1/2 inch) were thick enough to thread well.

I definitely like the flanges and the threads not being mis-matched. I got the fiberglass from....

http://www.mcmaster.com/

Sum
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[jibes138]

Real sea cocks have always been flanged, they just made the flange a separate piece with the new design so you could replace the ball valve part easily and cheaply without replacing the very expensive sea cock. Here's a picture of a sea cock. Note the flange. Boat builders have been irresponsible for the use of improper matching assemblies just to save a few bucks. The use of gate valves is really irresponsible. I had a catalina 25 and the gate valves were the same as you find outside your house to connect a garden hose. Amazing.

 

[Bob Pullen HC-33 1981]

Spent time reviewing more of Maine Sail's pages. The approach without the additional 3 holes in the hull seems like the one I like the most. Really appreciate the pic's, suggestions, web pages, etc. Extremely helpful. Many thanks.
Bob

 

[Ron20324]

. ... Boat builders have been irresponsible for the use of improper matching assemblies just to save a few bucks. The use of gate valves is really irresponsible. I had a catalina 25 and the gate valves were the same as you find outside your house to connect a garden hose. Amazing.

Maybe you can enlighten us by posting when ball valves were invented and/or put into recreational boats? Might explain why 32 year-old boats don't have them. Maybe the same reson Model T's didn't have seat belts or fuel injection or CD players?

 

[tommays]

Well

many older boats sure had proper tapered cone seacocks

I have not seen to many gate valves made out of a marine alloy OR with and NPS thread which would allow a proper fit on the NPS through hull

 

[Gunni]

Sumner and Tommays: Nice work. Sumner your illustrated write-ups are great. Clearly a lot of work went into them. Thanks.

Seacock replacement is on my list. It is one of the places that production builders cut corners - punny flanges and no backing plates.

 

[Sumner]

... Sumner your illustrated write-ups are great...

If you are referring to the installation of thru-hulls the link I gave wasn't to my site but to Maine Sail's site so he gets the credit .

I did take pictures on my install and did a couple small things different and will eventually post those pictures on our site, but basically followed his instructions. I do like this approach as once the flange is in there you can change out the mushroom or the valve at any time in the future,

Sum

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]============================[/FONT]

Our Endeavour 37

Our MacGregor 26-S Pages

Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida

Mac-Venture Links

 

[jibes138]

OK

Maybe you can enlighten us by posting when ball valves were invented and/or put into recreational boats? Might explain why 32 year-old boats don't have them. Maybe the same reson Model T's didn't have seat belts or fuel injection or CD players?

Ball Valve history does not go back to ancient Greece or the American revolution or does it? The modern ball vale was invented in 1967 or about 1957 according to different sources. Who cares when the ball valve was invented? Besides the patented owner, probably not many people. Still the ball valve was major advancement over plug valves used in the 20th century. The earliest ball valves were commercially available around 1967. For ancient parallels, the ruins of Pompeii turned up a bronze tapered plug quarter turn valve that resembles to the ball valve today. How's that for a ball valve mystery?
Ball Valve Birth Pains
Ball Valve researchers point to a spherical ball-type valve patented in 1871 led to the invention of today's ball valve. This ball valve was an all brass valve- brass ball and brass seats. Apparently this ball valve didn't storm the market and was not mentioned in valve catalogs of the late 1800's While today's ball valve is quite a recent invention, the idea for this ball valve has been around about 125 years. The first resilient seated ball valve patent was issued in April,1945. Legend has it the company's marketing department could not envision a use for the valve and it was not manufactured. Oh well, that's the way the ball valve bounces...Given the huge reliance on the ball valve today, it's a mystery why it took so long for people to invent and use the ball valve.


Article Source: http://EzineArticles.com/123681

 

[Chris Patterson]

I think it's a hard-wired genetic resistance to change.

People like the devil they know,
as opposed to the devil they don't..

 

[Maine Sail]

Maybe you can enlighten us by posting when ball valves were invented and/or put into recreational boats? Might explain why 32 year-old boats don't have them. Maybe the same reson Model T's didn't have seat belts or fuel injection or CD players?

I've got plenty of customers who's boats originally shipped with ball valve seacocks and many of these boats are over 30 years old..... The change over I see is mid to late 70's for many brands. Our boat was built in 1979 and shipped from the factory with ball valves, not gate valves.

My friend is an heir to the Crane Plumbing Fortune and their family patented the resilient/soft seat ball valve back in the mid 40's... Unfortunately Crane never did much with it and ball valves really did not become widely used until the late 60's.... By the late 70's a number of builders were using ball valve style valves. The higher quality builders used traditional tapered cone seacocks or the Groco rubber cone valves.. As far as I know CS began using ball valves in about 1978..

The big problem with many gate valves is that they were not usually a good quality bronze and many were actually simple yellow brass. The are also prone to marine growth preventing full closure.

As far as through bolting it is really no big deal. There are literally millions of through bolted seacocks out there and I can't recall ever seeing one fail due to a leak at a through bolt.

That said I install an awful lot of my drill & tap method backing plates these days. In tight spaces it is actually easier because you simply can not get a drill in there to drill a perpendicular hole. With drill & tap the backing plate is pre-made when I get to the boat. I installed two on Sunday and the complete install, of two flanged seacocks, 3/4" and 1.5" took about 4 hours from start to finish including manufacturing the backing blocks out of GPO-3 board...

The drill & tap method, done with G10 or GPO-3, well exceeds the ABYC strength standards. I have physically tested a single 5/16" X 18 SS bolt, in a direct line pull, on home made 1/2" fiberglass board, to 1000 pounds of force... I have also drilled and tapped a flanged seacock to 1/2" GPO-3 and loaded it in excess of 800 pounds at the innermost hard pipping. It holds it fine at over 700 pounds for well in excess of the 30 seconds the ABYC requires at 500 pounds. The seacock usually fails before the drilled & tapped bolts rip out of the fiberglass.

 

[Bob Pullen HC-33 1981]

Is Grocko a better choice than Perko for the 1.5 inch seacock/thru hull assembly?
Is plastic, teflon coated, stainless steel, chrome coated, etc. ball valve superior in use to another? Seems like both mfg's seem to market differences between their technology.
thanks again
Bob

 

[Gunni]

Maine: I too was stunned by the price of Pettit de-waxer to prep surfaces for painting and laminating. Then I remembered a recommendation from my epoxy / wooden boat repair days - lacquer thinner. I use a fast lacquer thinner. Same stuff they sell for woodworking.

 

[tommays]

IMHP the Groco BV series is the best modern unit on the market

If you compare the rugged handle and valve stem to anything else and it can be fully rebuilt in place If it ever needed it

 

[Gunni]

And, Groco is manufactured in Baltimore, Maryland, USA.