1976 Oday 25 cabin leaking.

Erieau · Jan 13, 2013

Those 2 things you mentioned were the major leakers for me too.
I'll be tackling the toerails next: they're loose and certainly leaking behind the cabin liner.

emergpa1 · Jan 13, 2013

seabrooksailor said:
Hello all, I noticed last week that my cabin roof was letting in quite a bit of water, it has never done this before so I started looking around and found out that the teak slides for the hatch were leaking so I removed sanded and butyl taped them. Next time it rained it leaked even more from the bolts on the bottom of the teak rail all the way down the side of the liner. Anyone have any suggestions before I takle the rails tomorrow? Is there anything else in that area that could be leaking?

Thanks in advance,
Lance

Seabrook sailor,
I have some questions. You say that the leaking from the "bolts" on the bottom of the teak rail? The teak hatch slide rails are usually screwed into the deck. I have modified my hatch slide rails to bolt them through the deck into the cabin liner. Have you done that? If not, how did you solve the problem of the obtuse angle of the interior cabin liner to the horizontal surface of the deck. If you have done this you will know what I mean. if you have bolted your hatch slides through the deck into the cabin liner, without solving the angle problem, then you are, as you tighten the nuts, pulling the bolts sideways and there bye losing your watertight seal.
If that is the case, to solve the problem you have to drill a one or 1 1/4 inch wide hole through the interior cabin liner and through the interior surface of the outer deck to provide a flat surface for the nut and the washer to grip.
Does this make sense? this is a very difficult thing to explain with words. It would be much better to show you than to try to text it into a forum.
My hatch slides leak easily, and I have replaced them twice. In fact I am just getting home from replacing them this morning. We have had some heavy rains and the starboard Hatch slide leaked in spite of the fact that I had carefully replaced them over the summer.
One of the things that caused the leak was that I had put them to close together, causing the hatch to bind. Whenever I started to open or close the hatch it had to spread the hatch slides apart ever so slightly. The spreading of the hatch slides broke the seal. And that allowed a leak to develop. It is a place where rainwater gathers heavily, and so even the smallest leak will allow a substantial amount of water into the boat, usually draining to the cushions on the settees in the salon.

emergpa1 · Jan 13, 2013

emergpa1 said:
Seabrook sailor,
I have some questions. You say that the leaking from the "bolts" on the bottom of the teak rail? The teak hatch slide rails are usually screwed into the deck. I have modified my hatch slide rails to bolt them through the deck into the cabin liner. Have you done that? If not, how did you solve the problem of the obtuse angle of the interior cabin liner to the horizontal surface of the deck. If you have done this you will know what I mean. if you have bolted your hatch slides through the deck into the cabin liner, without solving the angle problem, then you are, as you tighten the nuts, pulling the bolts sideways and there bye losing your watertight seal.
If that is the case, to solve the problem you have to drill a one or 1 1/4 inch wide hole through the interior cabin liner and through the interior surface of the outer deck to provide a flat surface for the nut and the washer to grip.
Does this make sense? this is a very difficult thing to explain with words. It would be much better to show you than to try to text it into a forum.
My hatch slides leak easily, and I have replaced them twice. In fact I am just getting home from replacing them this morning. We have had some heavy rains and the starboard Hatch slide leaked in spite of the fact that I had carefully replaced them over the summer.
One of the things that caused the leak was that I had put them to close together, causing the hatch to bind. Whenever I started to open or close the hatch it had to spread the hatch slides apart ever so slightly. The spreading of the hatch slides broke the seal. And that allowed a leak to develop. It is a place where rainwater gathers heavily, and so even the smallest leak will allow a substantial amount of water into the boat, usually draining to the cushions on the settees in the salon.

And BTW, the grab rails, (or the oh sh.. Rails), will leak the same way. You will feel damp carpet liner from both in the rearmost part of the salon, at the rear bulkhead. In my girl, that is just forward of the rear, gallely, bulkhead.
Never give up, never quit.

emergpa1 · Jan 13, 2013

Joe vandenEnden said:
Those 2 things you mentioned were the major leakers for me too.
I'll be tackling the toerails next: they're loose and certainly leaking behind the cabin liner.

Toe rails, being elevated, will cause dampness, but rarly puddles

emergpa1 · Jan 13, 2013

emergpa1 said:
Seabrook sailor,
I have some questions. You say that the leaking from the "bolts" on the bottom of the teak rail? The teak hatch slide rails are usually screwed into the deck. I have modified my hatch slide rails to bolt them through the deck into the cabin liner. Have you done that? If not, how did you solve the problem of the obtuse angle of the interior cabin liner to the horizontal surface of the deck. If you have done this you will know what I mean. if you have bolted your hatch slides through the deck into the cabin liner, without solving the angle problem, then you are, as you tighten the nuts, pulling the bolts sideways and there bye losing your watertight seal.
If that is the case, to solve the problem you have to drill a one or 1 1/4 inch wide hole through the interior cabin liner and through the interior surface of the outer deck to provide a flat surface for the nut and the washer to grip.
Does this make sense? this is a very difficult thing to explain with words. It would be much better to show you than to try to text it into a forum.
My hatch slides leak easily, and I have replaced them twice. In fact I am just getting home from replacing them this morning. We have had some heavy rains and the starboard Hatch slide leaked in spite of the fact that I had carefully replaced them over the summer.
One of the things that caused the leak was that I had put them to close together, causing the hatch to bind. Whenever I started to open or close the hatch it had to spread the hatch slides apart ever so slightly. The spreading of the hatch slides broke the seal. And that allowed a leak to develop. It is a place where rainwater gathers heavily, and so even the smallest leak will allow a substantial amount of water into the boat, usually draining to the cushions on the settees in the salon.

Correction, first paragraph, second line, should say" if so" instead of, " if not".

RichBone · Jan 13, 2013

seabrooksailor said:
Hello all, I noticed last week that my cabin roof was letting in quite a bit of water, it has never done this before so I started looking around and found out that the teak slides for the hatch were leaking so I removed sanded and butyl taped them. Next time it rained it leaked even more from the bolts on the bottom of the teak rail all the way down the side of the liner. Anyone have any suggestions before I takle the rails tomorrow? Is there anything else in that area that could be leaking?

Thanks in advance,
Lance

Doesn't sound right if you did all that sealing. Must be coming from somewhere else especially if it's dripping from the bottom. Mine don't leak at all (hope I didn't jinx it by writing this).

emergpa1 · Jan 13, 2013

seabrooksailor said:
Do you know if the toe rails are screwed or bolted?

Screwed

Joe11688 · Jan 14, 2013

I would use an adhesive sealant type caulking such as 3-M 4200 on toe rails and even hatch sliders. The reason that I say this is because on my boat, this type of Teak hardware is held on by wood screws and I'm forever stepping on it as I move about the deck. Butyl tape is great for securing a Tabernacle plate to the cabin which has more mass to it and is also bolted. Consequently it's not going to move. A toe rail on the other hand gets stepped on a lot. A strong bang on the hull can cause a screw holding the toe rail to pop up. You may or may not see day light under the toe rail where the screw is.
One way of checking it is to grab the toe rail with your thumb and fore finger and try to move it from side to side. Go along the toe rail at each bung and check for movement. A secure toe rail shouldn't move, but if it does, you've found the source of your leak. I've had toe rail leaks on my boat in the past and I know first hand what to look for when I see moisture. It's somewhat easy to spot the source of the leak on my boat where I have a fabric headliner throughout the interior of my cabin which may not be the case on an O'Day 25.
Last year I think it was, I had a leak coming in from the bow of my boat near the edge of the deck and hull. I removed my gunwale molding in that area and caulked it thinking that this was the culprit. After I put everything back, I ran a hose over the forward deck while inside the V birth section holding the hose through the open hatch, I could see the tiny leak coming in from the raised molded toe rail platform. I was able to pin point that leak from inside of the cabin. I went out and climbed the step ladder and sure enough, I could see daylight under that portion of the toe rail. I grabbed the toe rail with my thumb and fore finger and was able to rock it back and forth sideways. I could have kick myself for removing my gunwale molding thinking that this was the problem and all the time it turned out to be this! Who-da thunk it? :cussing:

In most cases on my boat I was able to remove remove the bung and the screw and pry the rail up enough to slide a thinly shaved Popsicle stick with 3-M 4200 under the molding. I cured the leak without removing the rail and only had to replace one bung.

If your boat has a hard liner in the cabin which makes it hard to find a leak, I would suggest that you remove the rail and use a good Polysulfide adhesive caulking. Butyl tape is great for certain types of hardware secured by nuts and bolts but screws need all the help they can get to secure hardware on a boat which is constantly being stressed by foot traffic on the deck on a boat.

emergpa1 · Jan 14, 2013

I like joe's advice. I use butyl tape on everything I can bolt through, and 4200 on everything I have to screw down. There is one exception. It is the beauty plate over the chain plates on my O'day 26. There I used butyl rubber because the caulk seemed to continuously leak. I am not not sure why that is the case, but so far butyl rubber has worked better in that spot for me.
I am planning on replacing my fixed port lights sometime this spring, and they screw in on the O'day a 26. But I am torn as to whether or not to use butyl tape or some other type of sealant. What have you guys used?

Pat · Jan 14, 2013

emergpa1 said:
I like joe's advice. I use butyl tape on everything I can bolt through, and 4200 on everything I have to screw down. There is one exception. It is the beauty plate over the chain plates on my O'day 26. There I used butyl rubber because the caulk seemed to continuously leak. I am not not sure why that is the case, but so far butyl rubber has worked better in that spot for me.
I am planning on replacing my fixed port lights sometime this spring, and they screw in on the O'day a 26. But I am torn as to whether or not to use butyl tape or some other type of sealant. What have you guys used?

On this same site / thread, at the bottom there is a discussion on the
correct way to bed deadlights...new ones or ones that are leaking. I wrote
some based on our discovery that hull / deadlight contraction and or expansion due to weather extremes makes Dow Corning 795 black sealant
one of the good choices...it is what automobile windshield places use to caulk
windshields..it allows expansion and contraction w/o leaking....it is the very bottom discussion on this particular thread as of a few minutes ago. Patrick

Joe11688 · Jan 14, 2013

I never had much luck with polysulfide caulking around my side chain plates either Keith and my chain plates are the same as yours. I had those small stainless steel chain plate covers held on by two wood screws that slip over the chain plates and screw to the deck. After a period of time they still leaked.
That's when I decided to have some larger covers made up and welded to my chain plates. I'm still using the same 3-M 4200 caulking but the covers are bolted through the deck which is adding more strength to my chain plates.
I had already beefed up the V birth side of my bulkhead with oak and bolted it to the sides of my quarter births, and of course my chain plates are attached to these boards also.
I've heard some chirping on this forum about how welding anything to chain plates can pose a threat to the integrity of the chain plates. To this I say yes there is always that possibility depending on the make and model of the boat. If there is a chance that your chain plates can bend when in the process of mast raising, then the plates can bend and break at the weld. This is not likely to happen on an O'Day 222 because of the placement of the chain plates in relation with the stays that hold the mast. The fact that I can lower my mast without loosening my side stays proves that point.
At any rate, I had a marine welder do the work on my chain plates and I expect that they will go on holding my mast for many years to come.

I know that some of the guys at the YC always need to loosen the side stays a little bit on their OD 25s and 26 before they drop their masts. I've also watched Wayne do this on his Seaward 22, so maybe it's a good idea rather than to risk bending chain plates.
I believe that if you were to go with longer and wider chain plate covers and bolt them through the deck, you probably wouldn't need to weld them to the chain plates and you could use Butyl tape. The bolts holding the covers would put more holding power to the Butyl tape than the screws. If the opening through the deck where the chain plates go it is a little wider at the top that the inside edge, sort of similar to a slightly countersunk bolt hole, then I don't see how it can ever leak. This is just my own theory on this. I may be wrong.
The only problem with going with longer and wider covers is that you will need to take into account the thickness of your bulkhead where the bolts are going to come through the deck in the V birth section. The main cabin section will be a cinch but the plates will need to be long enough on the deck toward the bow in order to clear the bulkhead.
If the Butyl tape is working for you to seal your side chain plates Keith, then that's what you need to stick with. I used Butyl tape to seal my bow stem chain plate a couple of years ago and so far it's worked like a champ.

Joe11688 · Jan 14, 2013

Years ago when I removed my port lights to re caulk them, I think I used a silicone rubber caulking. I know!--- You're not supposed to use silicone on Fiberglas, but this was back in the 1990s and I used silicone on practically everything. One, or both of them had to have been leaking or I would never have touched them. Anyway I haven't had a problem with them since. Today I think I would use the DC 795 on them.

emergpa1 · Jan 15, 2013

Trinkka said:
Years ago when I removed my port lights to re caulk them, I think I used a silicone rubber caulking. I know!--- You're not supposed to use silicone on Fiberglas, but this was back in the 1990s and I used silicone on practically everything. One, or both of them had to have been leaking or I would never have touched them. Anyway I haven't had a problem with them since. Today I think I would use the DC 795 on them.

thanks for the replies joe!, you are always a great help.

Joe11688 · Jan 15, 2013

emergpa1 said:
thanks for the replies joe!, you are always a great help.

My pleasure Keith. When it comes to leaks, "I've been there" many times and I've tried different types of caulking.

Main Sail has a pretty informative thread on bedding hardware that I've learned quite a bit from.
http://forums.macgregor.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=117172
I've adopted some of the practices off this thread and it's worth checking out.
I've found that through the years some of the leaks on my boat were created by my own ignorance in using deck cleaners that ate out the caulking under the gunwale moldings. I've mentioned this many times over the years but I feel that it's always worth mentioning again.

I saw it one of my many boating books under "Hints and Tips." It read, "you can clean your hull with ordinary household cleanser that you can buy in any grocery store." I think they called it "Zud Cleanser" and Hey it worked like a champ, except the Oxalic Acid that is in this cleaner ate out the caulking around my gunwale moldings and I had leaks up the ying yang coming into my cabin.
So, in the words of my old fifth grade teacher, "A word to the wise is sufficient."

1976 Oday 25 cabin leaking.

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