170 , 240 and tender

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Feb 19, 2008
483
Catalina 320 Tawas Bay Yacht Club
I know this topic has been beat to death, forgive me for asking one more time. I read all of the owner reviews and searched the archives of this forum, but without sailing the thing, you just don't know until you ask. We own a hunter 170, My daughter and I love it, my wife and son would do with a bit more stability. I am looking at a compac Eclipse, I really like the look of the Hunter 240. My wife really likes the 260, but that extra two feet seems daunting to me somehow! Anyway, I have read all the comments about water ballast boats being tender. How tender is tender? Is there anyone here with experience on both the 170 and the 240 that would be willing to give an opinion about the two. If the 240 is similar to the 170, I would guess it is probably not for me. It seems the reasonable thing is I will have to sail any boat before I take a hammer to the piggy bank, but I am curious if anyone has any input. I am guessing that "tender" for a cruising boat is a different standard than "tender" for a . . . well . . . tender. thanks, John
 
J

Jack h23.5

I owned a Precision 165 before my Hunter 23.5

Both are considered tender boats. Most sailboats have a design wind speed which is somewhere between 12 and 15 knots. At that wind speed you need to reduce sail. As long as you reduce sail early, being tender is not a problem. My wife and I sailed my 23.5 across Charlotte harbor in 15 knots of wind with full sails. We heeled at 25 to 35 degrees all the way across and had a blast. Last weekend, I took my son out and we sailed around between 35 and 45 degrees until he got used to it. Reached 50 degrees once, but it starts spinning up into the wind at 45 degrees. With experience, you can learn to enjoy heeling and not be concerned about being tender. My 23.5 has twice the room inside than an eclipse. I feel a lot more stable on the bigger water ballast boat than the smaller shoal keeled Precision. Even the Precision 23 is considered tender. So if you are at all interested in performance, then get used to being tender. Just my thoughts Jack
 

Hogan

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Aug 28, 2007
85
Hunter 260 Bay Springs, Ms
Go Hunting

I have no experience in the 170. I have sailed a Precision 23 for 7 years and now sailing a Hunter 260. I have found the Hunter 260 a little more difficult to handle but too much. I love the spacious cabin and would advise you to go for the two extra feet. The 260 is not difficult to singlehand.
 

JerryA

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Oct 17, 2004
549
Tanzer 29 Jeanneau Design Sandusky Bay, Lake Erie
How Tender is Tender?

John, My experience of going from a 170 to a P23 tells me that there is a big difference in what people define as tender. Coming from my P13 (looks like a Laser), my 170 seemed stable. Until I dumped it once. Even my P23 could be considered tender by some, or many, but I never feel unconfortable sailing in the same conditions that bothered me in my 170. If you can sail a 170, and we know you can, you'll find sailing anything with ballast, water or otherwise, to be a breeze. Just my two cents, and the wife has a much more enjoyable time on the P23. I looked at a couple of 240's before buying my P23, and I liked the layout and the cockpit space. But I wanted the more traditional deck around the cabin, although I'm sure I gave up some space in the cabin. Oh well - gotta be happy. JerryA
 
Feb 19, 2008
483
Catalina 320 Tawas Bay Yacht Club
great input

Thanks for the input guys, Hogan, the two feet is more intimidating on the launch ramp than in the lake - I think I could sail it; I'm not sure about launching it, docking it, towing it . . . that type of thing. What is your experience there? Jerry, Oddly enough, that first season I owned my 170 (my first boat) it made me nervous too. I think the thing that gave me confidence is when I dumped it! My wife and son are still nervous on it, they have never capsized. My daughter took sailing lessons in on a pico and the first thing they did were capsize drills - maybe everyone should get dumped now and then! Jack, I guess one of many trade offs is performance vs comfort. I am willing to sacrifice my performance for my spouses comfort, that being said I don't want a dog. I always thought water ballast was the compromise, the reviews and archived forum posts I read made me think maybe not! any other thoughts?? john
 
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George

Small Boat Tenderizer

I'm not an engineer but I have tried to understand this subject. This is my take: The word "tender" can be an objective and subjective term at the same time. How "tender" a boat is depends on many factors, such as hull and keel design, displacement, length, beam, and sail plan. In general, long, narrow boats with deep ballast will be more "stiff" than wider, shorter boats with a higher center of gravity. It is possible to get a general idea of how "tender" a boat is using conventional engineering data such as the Displacement/Waterline ratio of various candidate boats. For example, The H240 and H260 are very similar in appearance except the latter is heaver, wider, longer and carries more sail. Which is more "tender" the Hunter 240 with a displacement of 2300lbs or the H260 with 5000lb displacement? Another example; the Dana 24 has a shorter waterline than the H260 but has a displacement of over 8000 lbs with 3200 lbs of conventional ballast and a full deep keel. Is it more or less "tender" than the longer H260? By the way, the D24 costs well over $100,000 new and has completed pacific crossings and at least one circumnavigation - try that in a H260! More on this subject at this link: http://kobernus.com/hunter260/specs/specs.html
 
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Jack h23.5

Performance..

One thing I found going from a 17 foot Precision to a 23 foot Hunter is that the smaller boat is much more responsive. It accelerates much quicker and gets up to hull speed faster, but there is no substitute for water line length. Once the wind picks up the hunter lumbers along easily over 6 knots while the Precision was barely under control at 5.5 knots. Bottom line for me was the Admiral who was thrilled to have the extra room. We removed the V-berth, and use it as a closet/head, and sleep on a new queen bed made in the center of the cabin under the moonroof. Aft berth is also used for storage. Now she actually wants to go sailing, and not just supporting me. She can walk around inside while sailing, and fix sandwiches or even read a magazine. Just a few thoughts..Jack
 

Hogan

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Aug 28, 2007
85
Hunter 260 Bay Springs, Ms
No Idea

about launching and towing as I have not trailered my 260 since purchase. Hope to take it down to Florida this season; it would appear to be a massive tow.
 
Feb 19, 2008
483
Catalina 320 Tawas Bay Yacht Club
Then I have a follow up question . . . .

Several of you have mentioned that you keep your 240 or 260 in a slip . . . How often do you tow it? How long does it take you at the ramp? If you didn't want a trailerable, why not get a 30 footer? There are scads of them on the market for less than the cost of a 260. Thanks for all the input. John
 
Oct 3, 2006
1,029
Hunter 29.5 Toms River
Why not 30 feet?

Because I can bring my boat home over the winter. I can take 3 or 4 days sailing in one direction, have a friend drive an hour to pick me up, and then take my trailer there for the return trip. I can pick up and change sailing grounds for a mid-summer trip, I don't need to rely on a yard to haul out or bottom paint or unstep my mast. Just because I don't trailer my 23 every time I sail, doesn't mean I don't trailer it. I've put over 1000 miles on my boat since I got it 2 years ago, as well as had it in a slip both summers.
 

Clark

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Jun 30, 2004
886
Hunter 280 Lake Guntersville, AL
John, I think the distinctions here are between portability and transportability

The smaller boats fall into the portable category; (fairly) easy to set up and take down. While the 260 *is* transportable, it is a hassle to do that every weekend so most keep them at a slip or mooring and only trailer them on occasion. The ability to do that is an advantage as several 260 owners take them to different places 1-2 a year and really enjoy that ability. The 240/260's are newer than 30's for the price and systems are usually in better shape. We bought a 1996 280 a couple of years ago for the same money we could have bought an older 30-32 but the 280 has a lot fewer maintenance issues than the 30-somethings I've been associated with (friends at our marina).
 
J

Jack h23.5

John..My 23.5 is slipped..

because I cannot keep it at the house. My slip is $86 a month with power, so I manage to get out and sail more than I would otherwise. Last Year I pulled it twice to go other places, but that is for several days each, as I don't pull it to daysail. I pull it to cruise to florida coasts. It takes about an hour to motor over to the ramp, pack it up and drive away. Then it takes another hour cleaning the bottom with a pressure washer. I think when you add in all the extra cleaning time having the boat in the water, its really not worth it if you have free trailer storage at home. I think if I had my choice, I would trailer it 100% of the time. When I just trailer it, it takes about 30 to 45 minutes until I'm underway, and the boat is clean all the time. Main reason for the 23.5 was it was inexpensive, easy to trailer, a lot of room when compared to other 24' boats, and it sailed really well and balanced. I have no intention of spending weeks aboard a sailboat, so this size is great for a weekend, and that can be extended if the Marina has a hotel.Just some thoughts.
 
Jul 23, 2005
32
Hunter 170 Ventura, CA.
Compare the 170 to the 240 or the Eclipse? Your kidding, right?

You can not compare the 170 to the 240 or the Eclipse. The 170 is a sailing dinghy and the 240 or Eclipse is at least a coastal cruiser. The first sailboat I sailed had a foam hull with a main sail, wood center board and rudder. That boat was tender! But it was designed that way. It was fun to sail, could hold 2 people and if you capsized, was easy to right. But as so often happens with boat owners, bigger had to be better. So I bought a Coronado 15. It was set up for racing and was a really fun boat to sail. Tender? Of course. It was a sailing dinghy! The only ballast was the weight of the crew. Then I bought a new Hunter 170 with a weighted center board. Guess what, it was considered my most to be tender. Not by me. But its still a sailing dinghy! Why would you expect anything more? But do you know what, that boat taught me how to sail. Because every change in conditions meant I had to adjust my sails, crew positions, point of sail or what ever. If the boat was healing at 20*, I had to get out on the rail. I have to admit that if the boat is not healing at least 20*, there is not enough wind for me, even on the 170. So, I like healing. It makes me feel like I am sailing! But where I sail, Ventura, CA. Pacific Ocean, there were too many days where 12 knot of wind were too much for the 170. So I sold the 170 and bought a Hunter 23 with 800 lbs of ballast. Guess what, when the winds get to about 15 knts, my boat for some would be considered tender because its healed out to 30 degrees. But for me, thats when it gets fun. So "tender" is a subjective term. My 12 year old daughter has been at the helm of our 23, healed over at 45 degrees and could not have been happier! Is our Hunter 23 too tender for her? No. For some, 10 degrees of heal would be too much. The Hunter 170 is a sailing dinghy. A great sailing dinghy, but a sailing dinghy. Far different from a Hunter 23, 240 or an Eclipse. Any mono hull boat could be considered by someone to be tender! By others to be just plain fun. You want a boat thats not "tender", buy at multi hull. The term "tender" is so subjective that you have to sail the boat your considering in many different conditions to see if it suits your needs. A mono hull boat will heel to a certain degree given the conditions its being sailed in. There is no getting around that. But too many sailers want a boat that sails fast in all conditions and does not heal. That does not exist in a mono hull boat. But don try to compare a 170 to a 240, they are far different boats. Very fun in their own rights, but not the same.
 
Jun 2, 2004
425
- - Sandusky Harbor Marina, Lake Erie
"Tender"

Tender relates to how far and quickly a boat heels in a gust or wind change. It's determined by hull shape, and the location and amount of built-in ballast. With low mass and no built-in ballast, all dinghies are tender, especially if the helm and crew do not anticipate and respond quickly to gusts. The response involves moving to ballast the boat, sail trim, and helming in that order to keep the boat flat. Most boats sail faster when they are flat. When I raced a Sunfish, flat meant literally flat - 0 degrees of heel. Other designs are meant to heel 5 or 10 degrees, but all designs slow significantly under excessive heel - usually more than 15 to 25 degrees depending on the design. Dinghies can be rolled over by the wind, mostly because the mast out-weighs the dagger/centerboard, and the "ballast" or crew is ineffective when the dinghies are knocked down, with sails flat on the water. A boat with built-in ballast, on the other hand will not roll over based on the wind. The ballast exerts a mighty righting force as the mast approaches the water, so keel boats can only be rolled over by a wave taller than the beam of the boat. Keel boats with a more "V" shaped hull, or higher ballast (a shoal keel, or water ballast both place ballast high, and closer to the center of displacement of the boat) are more initially tender. The narrow V type hull is simply easier to tip than the flat hull shapes used in many modern designs. Modern designs also tend to have a wide beam aft, which gives more initial stability (less tender) while allowing big cockpits, and big after berths. Water ballast places the ballast high, within the hull shape. As a result, the lever arm - the distance from the ballast to the boat's center of displacement - is shorter, and the boat needs to heel more for the ballast to come into play. So a water ballasted boat might roll to 20 to 25 degrees before the ballast is really effective, making it "tender." Nevertheless, excessive heeling of a ballasted boat also slows it down. Control of heeling in a keel boat can be slower because the ballast, mass of the hull, and high inertia of the more massive, taller rig slow heeling in a gust. Heel in a gust is controlled with sail trim, and helming, because movement of the crew to the rail is too slow (and difficult). In a keel boat, keeping it flat (usually around 15 degrees of heel) in average (versus gust) winds is accomplished with the crew moving to the rail, sail trim, and then sail reefing. Reefing so the boat sails flat increases speed in higher winds because of the sail area lost and increased drag of the hull at a heel of over 15 to 20 degrees. Also, while some crew may enjoy the roller coaster feel of excessive heel, my experience is that most (including my admiral) become increasingly uneasy at heels over 15 degrees. And keeping the admiral and crew in love with sailing is a major objective of mine! David Lady Lillie
 
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