05 H36 Non-technical question on B&R rig

Nov 30, 2007
272
Hunter 36 Forked River, NJ
I'm coming from a different experience with traditional Catalina rigging, yet something seems off. The outside shrouds on both sides feel very loose at dock with no sails up. From this pic you can see slack where the cable extends from the turnbuckle. The turnbuckle also seems a little pushed in by the lifeline. Does this seem normal for a Hunter, or should the shrouds definitely be tighter?
20220921_140505.jpg
 

jssailem

SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
Oct 22, 2014
22,949
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
turnbuckle also seems a little pushed in by the lifeline. Does this seem normal for a Hunter, or should the shrouds definitely be tighte
It is an interesting query.
It is not just Hunter'e but all boats should not have the lifelines contacting the shrouds. I would look at the stanchion that is out of the image on the bottom. It is possible that the stanchion has been pushed inward causing the lifeline issue.

WIth regard to the tension on the shroud. This is a separate issue. Typical for shrouds, the tension is set at 15% of the tensile strength of the wire. Your hunter manual should have the technical shroud tension values listed. These values assume that the shrouds are OEM. If the standing rigging has been changed by a Previous Owner then all bets are off.

Good luck.
 
Nov 30, 2007
272
Hunter 36 Forked River, NJ
Ok, for now I'll consider the positioning of lifelines a separate issue. A sister h36 docked near me has lifelines similarly touching the rig. I am asking from a non technical perspective before delving deeper. I don't own a Loos gauge and would probably enlist a pro if I'm worried about it. Should I be worried if I can easily wiggle the outside lower shroud from it's original position + / - 2.5" toward and away from centerline of boat at around 5 feet above the deck? Note in the pic the angle between the turnbuckle and shroud cable. Should they form a straight line and the lower outer shroud be pretty tight and firm at dock without sails up?
 
Apr 8, 2011
772
Hunter 40 Deale, MD
When properly tensioned those shrouds should not be loose. Purchasing a Loos gauge to check the tension on your rigging is a worthwhile investment. Heck, offer to split it with the other H36 owner and its really affordable, and would see more use. You'll spend more than the cost of the gauge to get a "pro" to come out and spend some time going over your rig tension. But I do recommend a rigger as well to start here, since the rigging looks to be completely out of tune. Here's the Selden manual that may be of help: 595-540-E.pdf (seldenmast.com)
 

jssailem

SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
Oct 22, 2014
22,949
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
It would be "TOO LOOSE" for any of the boats I have sailed on.
If I was sailing on a Hunter with the condition you describe, I would consider a rig inspection.

Why is the rig sloppy?
  • Perhaps just a tune up.
  • Perhaps something is happening with the spreaders.
  • Perhaps something is happening with the chainplates
Those are the usual suspects when rigging on a boat becomes sloppy. There are other issues, but no need to explore them all at once.
 
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Oct 29, 2016
1,929
Hunter 41 DS Port Huron
Way too loose!

The diagonals adjust prebend in the mast, mast needs to be down to adjust these properly, the inners and outers are quite easy. Loosen the inner and cap stays, ensure mast is in column by hanging a bucket full of water on the spinnaker halyard, swing the bucket to the port side and lower to the rub rail and measure now repeat on the starboard side, adjust cap stays until the mast is in column then tighten the cap stays evenly keeping the mast in column, keep tightening until the shrouds are at 15% of breaking strength (approximately 1,800# force for 3/8 7x19 cable), then tighten the inners to 15%, badda bing you are done.
You will notice the when tightening the cap stays the mast will bend to aft, once the inners are tightened the mast will return to what ever the prebend was set to before the mast was stepped.

Buy a loos gauge they are not that much $$ and you can use it in the spring when you restep the mast.

Now if the diaganols of the rig are loose then you will most likely need a rigger, although Selden has some great instructions for how to achieve the proper prebend as well.

Rake is purely a function of the length of the forestay, which may or maynot have adjustment, many of the B&R rigs don't have forstay length adjustment other than shortening the cable and reswedging the fitting (our 41 doesn't have a turn buckle on the forestay) ergo no adjustment.
 
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Jan 1, 2006
7,510
Slickcraft 26 Sailfish
I think the B&R rig is tuned on the land i.e. with the mast down.
Until the boat is pulled I would take lots of pictures - Particularly of the spar to show Mast rake, pre-bend, and shots up the mast looking for any out of column areas both at the dock and while sailing, measure tensions where you can (Buy the Loos gage), mark the turnbuckles settings etc. And for the rest of the season I would tighten those loose ones to be just a little slack on the lee side in 10 -12 knots.
 
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Nov 30, 2007
272
Hunter 36 Forked River, NJ
B&R rig, IMF. Around these parts, in Barnegat Bay NJ, I don't see owners unstepping and stepping each season. Aside from taking the opportunity to inspect the spars, shrouds, and stays, why is it done? Why in some areas and not others?

Thanks for all the great input confirming my sense that a shroud that feels too loose is indeed too loose, no matter the rigging scheme. I know a little about the history of this boat, but not enough to draw conclusions about any decisions that were made or work that was done. The main thing at this point is to get it corrected. A previous owner was supposedly pretty successful racing the boat after delivering the boat from the Chesapeake. As the story goes, the marina where he bought it failed to secure the head stay properly and the original mast came crashing down on the arch in rough conditions. There was no way to save it, so the spars were cut loose in the Delaware Bay. After $70k in repairs by a reputable place, he enjoyed 10 years or so. The owners just prior to me had a less colorful history. They were a couple who loved the look of the H36, and loved spending weekends, but had no confidence in their sailing skills and only motored. Fortunately for me, they kept it meticulously clean. I'll just have to do my due diligence on making sure the rigging is brought up to spec. Rigging concerns weren't caught in the survey done in August.
 

jssailem

SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
Oct 22, 2014
22,949
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
Rig tension for your B&R rig is a system of several elements. They work together to maintain the proper tension on the boat's hull to drive tit through the water.

Mast - shrouds - mast base - chainplates - bulkheads all work together.
 

jssailem

SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
Oct 22, 2014
22,949
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
Rigging concerns weren't caught in the survey done in August.
Not a surprise. Unless the surveyor is skilled in sailboats, the detail of rigging is not checked. In my experience the questions asked...
  • Is the mast standing upright?
  • Does the rigging appear to be rusted?
  • Are there the same number of shrouds on both sides and ends of he boat?
  • If no back stay are the shrouds swept back about the same?
Move on to the hull. Recommend that the rigging be checked by a professional rigger...
(I am sure as hell not climbing that mast to see if the rigging is ready to sail in an ocean.)
 
Oct 29, 2016
1,929
Hunter 41 DS Port Huron
B&R rig, IMF. Around these parts, in Barnegat Bay NJ, I don't see owners unstepping and stepping each season. Aside from taking the opportunity to inspect the spars, shrouds, and stays, why is it done? Why in some areas and not others?
When you loosen the rig to set the mast in column, you will see the prebend in the mast, again you can take the topping lift off the boom and bring it to the goose neck and hold it tight against the goose neck connection at the mast, look up and you can estimate the prebend, with IMF there should be no more than 1" prebend in the mast, if too much it may result in the main being difficult to unfurl (it never seems to be an issue furling, just unfurling). I have tightened the inner stays a bit more than the outers (tuned) to reduce mast prebend as opposed to retuning the entire rig.
You should take the mast down to do a full inspection and add grease to the upper swivel for the IMF foil (this is near impossible to do while the mast is up). It is also a good idea to lubricate the IMF winch on the mast which is another typically neglected point of lubrication.
 

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Jan 1, 2006
7,510
Slickcraft 26 Sailfish
No, most B&R owners in the NE do not drop the mast every year. I think that has the potential to cause more problems than it cures.
I was just suggesting that most riggers would probably tune the rig on land. It may be worth a one time standing riggin check this winter. Get it right and then leave it alone.
 
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Oct 29, 2016
1,929
Hunter 41 DS Port Huron
No, most B&R owners in the NE do not drop the mast every year. I think that has the potential to cause more problems than it cures.
I was just suggesting that most riggers would probably tune the rig on land. It may be worth a one time standing riggin check this winter. Get it right and then leave it alone.
The hardest part about unstepping the mast is finding a place to store it assembled, most yards don't like the mast to be 10' wide by 50' some odd feet long, kinda takes alot of room. I drop ours about every 3-5 years to take care of the difficult to get to lube points and to inspect the connections. Being in fresh water the connections are not that big a deal, lube is......
 
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Jun 1, 2009
1,824
Hunter 49 toronto
My suggestion…
Hire a competent rigger who is experienced in B&R rigs.
Watch what they do, take lots of notes and photos. Learn everything they are doing,
Buy a loos guage.
In short, don’t guess at this. The B&R are complicated rigs.
 
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